Lightsaber or Site-to-site transporter?

[Dooey Jo]

Lightsabres are not useless for non-jedi. Just attach it to something which will hold it in place, turn it on, et voila: the perfect cutting machine! It cuts through steel like nothing, and it's microscopically thin. If you can lower the powersetting you could probably cut through wood like nothing, without incinerating it, too! Need a piece of plank of an exact length that you won't get with a saw? Zoum, and you get it! Just don't touch the blade.

I would not like a transporter. So it creates a perfect copy of me that's indistinguishable from myself? But it's just indistinguishable from me to everyone else. It wouldn't be me, it would be a perfect copy. My consciousness would end and a perfect replica would be created instead, but that wouldn't be mine, it'd be the copy's.

Or let's say that there was a "malfunction" and the original was not destroyed. Are there now two you? Would you be the same person as the copy? Other people of course wouldn't know any difference, but would you? I'm pretty sure you would, and you would not consider the copy to actually be you. So why should you consider it to be you, if the real you are destroyed at the instant the copy is created?

So no transporter, thank you. Unless it's portable and small, so I could put books and stuff in the memory, and use it as a back-pack. Or maybe I could put all the stuff in my room in there, and when I need something, I just select it from a flashy touch-screen menu on the thing and out it comes. That'd be great!

[Lord Pounder]

I chose the transporter. Think of the possabilities. As others have said useing it as a super fast deliver service has potential as does it's use in robberies but i really fail to see how people could be so worried about stepping into one, if a person looks like you, has you memories and acts like you it is you. Spanky posting the same arguement over and over again can't change my mind.

A lightsaber would be anice talking point at a dinner party but i fail to see how it can improve my life in a way a Transporter can't. If i need a door opened i'll transport the lock away, if i need a weapon i'll use my transporter to "borrow" one. Some guy gives me grief i'll transport his ass to Mount Everest.

[LordShaithis]

I'd take both and become the world's greatest bank robber.

Authorites still have no idea how the suspect entered the building that night, nor how the reinforced vault door was cut from it's hinges.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I chose the transporter. Think of the possabilities. As others have said useing it as a super fast deliver service has potential as does it's use in robberies but i really fail to see how people could be so worried about stepping into one, if a person looks like you, has you memories and acts like you it is you. Spanky posting the same arguement over and over again can't change my mind.

I keep saying the same argument because people just keep saying the same crap about the copy still being them. Seriously, how fucking difficult is it for some of you people to understand that the COPY is NOT YOU. Your consciousness does NOT carry over to the copy. Your body is destroyed and its energy is used to build a new copy, but YOU are still DEAD.

Jesus...

[Spanky The Dolphin]

To add, think of that one TNG episode where it was revealed that years ago a copy of Riker was beamed back down to the planet due to the transporter signal being bounced back. Both were considered Riker, but they were seperate individuals with seperate conciousnesses: at least one of them was definately NOT Riker, because they couldn't both have the same continuing consciousness.

So what if we switch the order around in this copy and disintegration process? What if the copy is created first, and then you're disintegrated? I suppose you'd assume you'd be concious in BOTH bodies at the same time, or are you suggesting your stream of conciousness would jump from the destroyed body ot the other? Maybe the obvious answer is you would simply see there's a SEPARATE version of you right before you're reduced to atoms. This notion of a 'magical conciousness transfer' is absurd.

[brianeyci]

I wouldn't step into a transporter.

That being said, the choice is not so clear cut once you flesh out the details. In order for this op to matter, transporters or lightsaber technology will have to be deployed on a large scale (or why the question). So not only does the world gain transporters and lightsabers, but they gain the knowledge and fundamentals in constructing and maintaining transporters and lightsabers. That means the world's scientists will get the science behind both technologies as a prerequisite. Transporters will eventually lead to replication technology and mass transit of freight (assuming people don't start using transporters, which is not a given, people do stupid things for convenience all the time in RL). Lightsabers will eventually lead to superior power storage and widespread industrial application.

So the rational choice is transporters.

Brian

[Bounty]

Seriously, how fucking difficult is it for some of you people to understand that the COPY is NOT YOU. Your consciousness does NOT carry over to the copy. Your body is destroyed and its energy is used to build a new copy, but YOU are still DEAD.

1. People stay conscious throughout the transporter cycle.
2. If everything that's transported is rebuilt at the other end, how come certain substances (like antimatter) can be transported, but not replicated ?

[brianeyci]

Seriously, how fucking difficult is it for some of you people to understand that the COPY is NOT YOU. Your consciousness does NOT carry over to the copy. Your body is destroyed and its energy is used to build a new copy, but YOU are still DEAD.

1. People stay conscious throughout the transporter cycle.
2. If everything that's transported is rebuilt at the other end, how come certain substances (like antimatter) can be transported, but not replicated ?

Indeed, both sides of the argument though (pro-soul or otherwise) seem to be concentrating on one phenomenon rather than the whole of Trek to construct a theory. The Riker example seems to disprove the soul hypothesis, while the Picard example seems to prove some sort of "energy" or a soul, and the Tuvix example is inexplicable. It is probably impossible to come up with a theory that explains all the transporter mishaps we've seen.

I would say though there is more evidence for soul than not, because in Trek soul is an observable phenomenon. Katra is one example, Chakotay is another, and there is even a Voyager episode where Chakotay's soul dances around taking over people's bodies to fight another alien who was taking over people's bodies IIRC.

Brian

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Seriously, how fucking difficult is it for some of you people to understand that the COPY is NOT YOU. Your consciousness does NOT carry over to the copy. Your body is destroyed and its energy is used to build a new copy, but YOU are still DEAD.

1. People stay conscious throughout the transporter cycle.

They only seem to. The truth is that even if the individual was killed in a tiny fraction of a second (say at Plank time scale) and then the copy generated, they wouldn't notice, since we aren't aware when we go unconscious.

[Solauren]

Spanky, you know, you're begining to sound, oh, PARANOID.

We've seen Barkley stay conscious the entire time during transport, when he was held in suspension, remember?

Hell, we've seen Lwoxxanna Troi make a pass at Pichard half way during the dematerialization process.

[brianeyci]

The whole idea of "transporters killing" is partly Trek writer's fault too, because they never address the societal impact of transporters. There should be protestors which decry the transporter as a killing machine, and this should have made an interesting Trek episode besides settling the controversy for good. Also, the marketing of Trek as "hard-sci-fi" makes it difficult for some people to accept that "soul" is entrenched in Trek. Trek is fantasy, and therefore objections to "soul" being "impossible" because in real life there is no soul are moronic and not supported by canon. The physics in the Trekverse are different, and if Trek creatures have souls, who gives a shit. Although the marketers try and spin Trek into a tribute to science, that is writer's intent and shouldn't affect the way we judge the possibility of "soul", since we've seen numerous examples of soul and even soul transfer with the Vulcan katra.

Brian

[NecronLord]

There should be protestors which decry the transporter as a killing machine,

Oh, you mean, like, say. McCoy?

[brianeyci]

There should be protestors which decry the transporter as a killing machine,

Oh, you mean, like, say. McCoy?

Not just one man, I meant a whole episode with protestors and civil rights groups and such. It is not too much to ask given the amount of Trek we've seen dealing with wide ranging issues. And of course, you take a fraction of my sentence rather than the entire sentence, which I said a whole episode devoted to exploring the morality of the transporter rather than a off-the-cuff remark by a paranoid old man .

Brian

[NecronLord]

Except, and here's the biggie, the Transporter was a familiar piece of gear by the time the show was set. Furthermore, a good few people here would complain about revolving an entire episode around the exploration of what is after all, a budget-saving plot device.

[Bounty]

There should be protestors which decry the transporter as a killing machine,

There were. The inventor of the transporter talks about this in Daedalus. Apparently, any ethical objections were refuted long before the ENT era.

[brianeyci]

Except, and here's the biggie, the Transporter was a familiar piece of gear by the time the show was set. Furthermore, a good few people here would complain about revolving an entire episode around the exploration of what is after all, a budget-saving plot device.

We had many many seasons and many many pointless episodes. If it had been only one season or a couple of seasons you would be right, but we had episodes like Klingons pretending to be Zulus, O'Brien and Bashir sitting in a bar, and so on. Besides with all the Prime Directive nonsense, it would have been refreshing to see an angle of a species who just acquired transporter technology and their views on it.

Brian

[NecronLord]

An excellent solution to boring episodes brian.

Replace them with boring episodes that violate the very concept of the show (getting out there not dealing with domestic social problems) as well.

[brianeyci]

An excellent solution to boring episodes brian.

Replace them with boring episodes that violate the very concept of the show (getting out there not dealing with domestic social problems) as well.

It doesn't have to be domestic, it can be the Enterprise-D engaging in negotiations with an alien species which is pondering the transporter in their deliberations. You are also making the assumption that it violates the concept of the show, which it wouldn't ("To boldly go where no man has gone before", since when can you not boldly go somewhere in a domestic issue, you just need a bit of creativity). Also a good writer can make any story interesting, while a bad writer can make anything boring, and an episode dealing with the morality of the transporter is not intrinsincally boring.

Brian

[Dakarne]

Hell... with good enough writing, you can make the mystery of the missing toilets on Federation Ships interesting...

[applejack]

1. People stay conscious throughout the transporter cycle.

Scotty wasn't conscious in that transporter buffer for seventy some years.

I'm assuming you're talking about the Barclay incidient someone else mentioned earlier. There were numerous camera angles and cut scenes, any of which may have skipped over the part where he lost consciousness. If it had been one continuous shot from a single camera without any interruptions, then there might be more support for that idea.

However, the Scotty incident would seem to indicate that consciousness is indeed lost at some point during the transporter process.

2. If everything that's transported is rebuilt at the other end, how come certain substances (like antimatter) can be transported, but not replicated ?

Because you need anti-matter in the first place to replicate anti-matter. Read the main site. Replicators aren't philosopher's stones.

Indeed, both sides of the argument though (pro-soul or otherwise) seem to be concentrating on one phenomenon rather than the whole of Trek to construct a theory. The Riker example seems to disprove the soul hypothesis, while the Picard example seems to prove some sort of "energy" or a soul, and the Tuvix example is inexplicable. It is probably impossible to come up with a theory that explains all the transporter mishaps we've seen.

There was a thread a long time ago about a new subspace entanglement theory where, IIRC, the data of the person's pre-energized form is inherent in the energized form. That's why they had to go back and get Picard's pattern from that nebula thing.

As for Tuvix... I have no idea how that works. I do recall it being mentioned in that old thread, but I forgot what the explanation was.

I would say though there is more evidence for soul than not, because in Trek soul is an observable phenomenon. Katra is one example, Chakotay is another, and there is even a Voyager episode where Chakotay's soul dances around taking over people's bodies to fight another alien who was taking over people's bodies IIRC.

There was also that episode where Dr. Crusher fell in love with that ghost...

As for the Spock incident, I think there's a small trend within Trek of some people being able to transfer brain patterns over the nervous system. I recall this happening in a Voyager episode as well. I just assumed that and Spock's Katra thing was roughly the same thing.

As for the Chakotay incident, I don't remember the events at all, so I can't really comment on that one.

Hell, we've seen Lwoxxanna Troi make a pass at Pichard half way during the dematerialization process.

So? That just means that their bodies haven't been completely converted into energy yet. I don't see why stuff couldn't happen during this time. In Star Trek IV, that marine biologist jumped into Kirk's transporter beam right during the same process. Obviously, the total disintegration thing doesn't happen at that point. I think there was some speculation here a while back that the blue glowy stuff was just a preparatory stage that gets the subject ready for dematerialization.

Hell... with good enough writing, you can make the mystery of the missing toilets on Federation Ships interesting...

They're probably recessed into the bathroom walls like in the Ent-A brig as seen in Star Trek V.

[DoctorPhanan]

Maybe, I'm missing the point, but aren't transporters proven technology? I mean, I would say that almost every single episode of Star Trek includes transporters and thier use. The usage of transporters has been around since TOS and has certainly been proven that the person exactly the same from point A to Point B.

Actually, not to accuse anybody, I think that the arguement against transporters is mainly one of "SW vs ST? SW is obviously superior" and finding an arguement that suits that purpose. Forgive me if you truly believe in this arguement and do honestly have stong moral/ philosophical/ ethical objections to transporter technology.

Personally I feel that transporter technology screw ups are just as likely as lightsaber glitches. Sure the Lightsaber has been around for thousands of years, but its not foolproof, it has flaws. For instance, Corran Horn's lightsaber in "I, Jedi" and Tenel Ka's lightsaber in "Young Jedi Knights: Lightsabers" granted, both had flaws in construction, but lightsaber failures can and do happen.

Personally I choose the Transporter for aforementioned reasons, and I see no truly compelling arguement against them. The lightsaber although a terrifying weapon does not outrace the practicality of transporters.

[Ender]

I chose the transporter. Think of the possabilities. As others have said useing it as a super fast deliver service has potential as does it's use in robberies but i really fail to see how people could be so worried about stepping into one, if a person looks like you, has you memories and acts like you it is you. Spanky posting the same arguement over and over again can't change my mind.

I keep saying the same argument because people just keep saying the same crap about the copy still being them. Seriously, how fucking difficult is it for some of you people to understand that the COPY is NOT YOU. Your consciousness does NOT carry over to the copy. Your body is destroyed and its energy is used to build a new copy, but YOU are still DEAD.

Jesus...

If at any point you would like to address the twice brought up fact that your body naturally does the same thing every 7 years instead of pulling a stone-deaf-wall-of-ignorance it would be really fucking awesome.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Becuase cell growth and replacement is a gradual process. The only way it could be even remotely comparible is if it happened all at once every seven years, but it doesn't, so it isn't exactly a comparible example to a process that's more along the lines of being incinerated or vapourised in fractions of a second.

[Dooey Jo]

It should also be mentioned that cell growth and replacement varies with the tissue. There are cells which dies and get replaced within five days, and there are the brain cells which almost never get replaced. I don't know where this "seven years" thing comes from, but I'm almost positive it has to be some kind of average over the body as a whole. Otherwise it's just wrong.

And as Spanky said, even if it is true, it is still a gradual process, with well enough time for the brain to compensate for any lost cells. There is no destruction of your consciousness involved.

[drachefly]

We seem to be dealing with different definitions of 'I'.

I am a bundle of information and the propagation of that information through time -- my mental state, my physical state, and the interactions with the outside.

Any operation upon me which when it is done leaves me back in the same state (aside from some updating)... does not kill me. Even if the information which comprises me was transformed into a different form. If I was digitized by V-ger and it decided to continue to emulate my former existence at 1% speed for two years (like the matrix with no body), then replicate me back into existence... I would never have died.

Think to what Yoda said. "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Let go of your body, you are more than that.