Darth Vader vs Ben Kenobi (Rematch at Death Star). Who wins?

[Zwinmar]

Obi Wan, won in his duel with Vader. why? because the power he had to use to vanish trumps a killing blow, he disappeard before Vader could strike, so wether he could duel or not, in my mind, is a mute point...

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

As I look at that duel in comparison to the ROTS duel, Think that both of them have took great pains to refine their dueling technique. Thus both of them have become more conservative fighters. To me I think the ANH duel both Vader and Obi Wan were being very (if not overly) cautious.
Vader knew that he couldn't underestimate Obi Wan like he did in ROTS or he would make the same mistakes. He knows Obi Wan is a cunning tricky warrior
Obi Wan Knew that Vader would probably not make the same fatal errors that he did on Mustafar. He also know that Vader is very powerful and is a very smart fighter.

They both were holding back, IMO. IIRC the novel stated that both were evenly matched.

[Lord Pounder]

Oh and how come Star Wars is the only science fiction where having cybernetics seems to be taken as a disadvantage?

Open your fucking eyes and watch the movie, Anakin compared to Vader is a lot slower and has less range to movement, partly due to injuries and partly due to the really feckign heavy breathing apparatus. Some Cybernetics are an advantage, Lukes mechanical hand is a lot stronger and durable than a normal hand, howver when it gets to the point you're more machine than man you're fecked.

[brianeyci]

It all depends on terrain. This is Vader's home turf though, and he won't make the same mistake twice. Vader wins, because the only way Kenobi was able to win when he was far younger and agile was because he continuously gave ground and brought Anakin into a dangerous situation.

Btw, I don't understand the rationale when people say "Ben needed to sacrifice himself to let Luke escape." It is plainly obvious that Ben sacrificed himself, but not just to let Luke escape. "I will become far more powerful in death than you can imagine" (IIRC) ring a bell? Isn't it obvious that Ben waited until Luke was watching to let down his guard and sacrifice himself? He wanted Luke to see the true face of the Dark Side -- that the Dark Side doesn't respect life -- and remember that so that Luke would never be deceived and turned to the Dark Side.

Brian

[Rommie2006]

Oh and how come Star Wars is the only science fiction where having cybernetics seems to be taken as a disadvantage?

Indeed. It's something that i never understood.

Of course, Vader's supporters advocate that we never really saw him fight to his fullest (since he didn't want to kill his son), as so there is no conclusive evidence that Vader's cybernetics restricts his mobility.

But then again Lucas did mention (read from some source) that Anakin's injury did cause his skills to decline and he was no longer as powerful as he could be.

[Havok]

Oh and how come Star Wars is the only science fiction where having cybernetics seems to be taken as a disadvantage?

Open your fucking eyes and watch the movie, Anakin compared to Vader is a lot slower and has less range to movement, partly due to injuries and partly due to the really feckign heavy breathing apparatus. Some Cybernetics are an advantage, Lukes mechanical hand is a lot stronger and durable than a normal hand, howver when it gets to the point you're more machine than man you're fecked.

You mean Vader compared to Anakin. What exactly does my question have to do with watching the movie, which I can garauntee I've seen more than you. In Empire as well as Jedi, Vader's movement is fine. Yes his movemnt in Hope seems rigid, but so does Obi-Wan's. It's obviously not age since Dooku was 20 something years older than Obi-Wan and Anakin when they fought. Palpatine is 15 or so years older than Mace and Yoda would be about 700 centuries older than anyone he might have fought. So maybe they were just being cautious as they had not fought each other in about 19 years.

So again... How come cybernetics seems to be such a hinderance in the Star Wars universe?

[Zwinmar]

Btw, I don't understand the rationale when people say "Ben needed to sacrifice himself to let Luke escape." It is plainly obvious that Ben sacrificed himself, but not just to let Luke escape. "I will become far more powerful in death than you can imagine" (IIRC) ring a bell? Isn't it obvious that Ben waited until Luke was watching to let down his guard and sacrifice himself? He wanted Luke to see the true face of the Dark Side -- that the Dark Side doesn't respect life -- and remember that so that Luke would never be deceived and turned to the Dark Side.

exactly

So again... How come cybernetics seems to be such a hinderance in the Star Wars universe?

because most of those who recieve cybernetics, recieve them after they have been injured, unlike RIFTS and other sources that use them to augment their abilities rather than in place of

[Noble Ire]

Wait, I really don't think your getting this cybernetics thing. The only case in which cybernetics were ever seen as a down grade was with Anakin. This was because in his pre-Mustafar state, he was superior to the OT Darth Vader. This is not because he has artificial limbs (which are in fact a strength improvement) but because the injuries that he recieved were extensive enough to permenantely hinder his force ability, and no amount of replacement parts could bring him back in tune.

As far as I know, there are no other instances where cybernetic enhancement is "weaker" than a natural form.

[Havok]

So they are only a hinderance to Force users... Thanks Noble

[SVPD]

I'm thinking it could have gone either way. Kenobi didn't decide to loose until the Stormtroopers arrived, which indicates he could fight Vader or the Troopers but not both.

[Cykeisme]

So they are only a hinderance to Force users... Thanks Noble

Not simply that cybernetics are a hindrance to Force users.. the main point is the injuries. He was horribly injured, not just losing limbs but also being cooked alive. The cooking really diminished his abilities.

The injuries are what made post-Mustafar Vader weaker.

[Darth Yoshi]

More importantly, Vader may be using the Force subconsciously to try to repair his body. In SOTE Vader uses the Force to heal his body, but it required concentration and he couldn't sustain it. It could be that Vader is doing that on a smaller scale all the time.

[Rommie2006]

More importantly, Vader may be using the Force subconsciously to try to repair his body. In SOTE Vader uses the Force to heal his body, but it required concentration and he couldn't sustain it. It could be that Vader is doing that on a smaller scale all the time.

Actually, if I am not mistaken, from the novelisation which i read a really LONG time ago, Vader could not reach his full potential partly because he could not embrace the Dark Side completely.
I remember reading about how in his meditation chamber, on how he could breathe without his apparatus as he channeled his hatred to the dark side of the force. But he could only sustain for a short period of time. Can anyone confirm this? Or was I dreaming this passage out?

And back to cybernetics, it doesn't make sense why Vader's cybernetics would limit him as it seemingly did in the OT movies. The cybernetics should have made him stronger (and perhaps more dexterous too). His mechanical arm should have enough brute strength to whack off's Obi-Wan's lightsaber out from his hand.

[Rommie2006]

So they are only a hinderance to Force users... Thanks Noble

Not simply that cybernetics are a hindrance to Force users.. the main point is the injuries. He was horribly injured, not just losing limbs but also being cooked alive. The cooking really diminished his abilities.

The injuries are what made post-Mustafar Vader weaker.

Hmm... that would seem more logical. But then there is the question why was Vader's cybernetics not able to make up / compensate for his injuries? Come on.... it's SW... their tech has to count for something.

[Noble Ire]

So they are only a hinderance to Force users... Thanks Noble

Not simply that cybernetics are a hindrance to Force users.. the main point is the injuries. He was horribly injured, not just losing limbs but also being cooked alive. The cooking really diminished his abilities.

The injuries are what made post-Mustafar Vader weaker.

Hmm... that would seem more logical. But then there is the question why was Vader's cybernetics not able to make up / compensate for his injuries? Come on.... it's SW... their tech has to count for something.

Its the force. The strength in the force he lost cannot be compared to mechanical replacements. Some SW combat droids process actions at virtually lightspeed, and force preminition can one up them. An artifically enhanced human can bend metal easily and withstand more injury than normal. Powerful Force users can move starships, take on overwhelming numbers, and see things before they happen. Sure, it would help fill the gap a bit, but tech could never fully compensate for loss of strength in the Force.

[Rommie2006]

Not simply that cybernetics are a hindrance to Force users.. the main point is the injuries. He was horribly injured, not just losing limbs but also being cooked alive. The cooking really diminished his abilities.

The injuries are what made post-Mustafar Vader weaker.

Hmm... that would seem more logical. But then there is the question why was Vader's cybernetics not able to make up / compensate for his injuries? Come on.... it's SW... their tech has to count for something.

Its the force. The strength in the force he lost cannot be compared to mechanical replacements. Some SW combat droids process actions at virtually lightspeed, and force preminition can one up them. An artifically enhanced human can bend metal easily and withstand more injury than normal. Powerful Force users can move starships, take on overwhelming numbers, and see things before they happen. Sure, it would help fill the gap a bit, but tech could never fully compensate for loss of strength in the Force.

So in conclusion Vader lost his powers (partially) because he was more "man-than-machine" and was unable to heal himself completely? And thus, he could not use the force as well as before because he was more "man-than-machine", because the force only works with living creatures and not inaminate cybernetic replacements?

Is that correct?

[Noble Ire]

So in conclusion Vader lost his powers (partially) because he was more "man-than-machine" and was unable to heal himself completely? And thus, he could not use the force as well as before because he was more "man-than-machine", because the force only works with living creatures and not inaminate cybernetic replacements?

Is that correct?

Partly.
As Darth Yoshi says, its not so much that the artifical parts themselves block force use, it is that they cannot repair Anakin to an extent sufficent to give him back the control over the Force he once had. The cyborging does not make him weaker, but the physical strength and speed he gains cannot make up for his original, Force tuned organics.

[Solauren]

Another thing to consider is, we have no idea how much some of Vader's needed cyberknitic components weighed.

I mean, no matter how strong you are in the force, having an extra 10 - 40 pounds of life support gear built into you is going to slow you down.

Also 2 things to consider.

#1- Vader, post RoTS hunted down and killed Jedi Knights and Masters. Any the Clones (and later Stormtroopers) didn't get, he did. Notables of this include the infamous Dark Woman (One of the finest duelest in the Jedi Order) which he killed shortly before ANH.
Also, if one EU source that some put into canon and others do not is to be believed, he took down a resurrected Darth Maul. (That's probably Infinities, but I love mentioning it)
Who knows how many Jedi Knights, Masters, Padawan's, Dark Siders he took down.
His power levels were awesome. With his body in such a sad shape, he made up for it in other ways. Hell, it's possible that his TK abilities were to the point he didn't need to be fast and fancy, as he completely limited his opponents movements, givien Vader, who had to get used to that style of fighting, a major advantage.
I mean, his powers levels were to the point were, in Return of the Jedi, he had his hand sliced off, got up, saw his son being deep-fried, grabbed up the Emperor (the man that cooked Mace Windu and beat Yoda), took the lightning, stayed on his feet and tossed the Emperor down the Death's Star's reactor shaft like he was yesterday's trash.

#2- It's entirely possible, from a psychological point of view, Vader was enjoying his duel with Obi-wan. I mean, by that point, Vader was seriously over in the Dark Side. A few months after the duel with Obi-wan, the idea of freezing his own son was nothing to him.
Any, it's possible Vader was delibrately dragging the fight out, you know, "Hey, Old Man. You might have sliced off my arms and legs last time, but this time, I can crush you like and ant, so I'm going to enjoy every second I can of this".

[Havok]

Another thing to consider is, we have no idea how much some of Vader's needed cyberknitic components weighed.

I mean, no matter how strong you are in the force, having an extra 10 - 40 pounds of life support gear built into you is going to slow you down.

Would this even really be a factor? Our technology today has created super light materials that amputees can use to walk, run and even jump on with out fear of breaking. Now they aren't limbs with much articulation, but in a galaxy with Death Stars, lightsabers, shields and lightspeed engines and as we have seen articulated human looking prosthetics how much would weight factor in. Probably not enough to make a difference.

His helmet would suck. I don't know how many of you played football, but there is a reason you take those damn things off when you can. I mean wearing it for 4 hours a day is one thing, but your whole life? Fuck that. Same goes for the armour... having to wear it all the time would suck.

[Havok]

Sorta on topic... Is the forthcomming TV show going to show any of Vader hunting down Jedi? I know that it is supposed to be based around minor characters, but a pilot with Vader dueling with and killing some more Jedi would be just the thing to get people to watch. It will also help clear up some of this argument perhaps.

[drachefly]

His helmet would suck. I don't know how many of you played football, but there is a reason you take those damn things off when you can. I mean wearing it for 4 hours a day is one thing, but your whole life? Fuck that. Same goes for the armour... having to wear it all the time would suck.

He does take it off (even if he needs assistance to do so). Remember that scene in tESB when the captain accidentally enters Vader's chamber a little early, and the helmet hasn't finished being lowered back on?

[Rommie2006]

So in conclusion Vader lost his powers (partially) because he was more "man-than-machine" and was unable to heal himself completely? And thus, he could not use the force as well as before because he was more "man-than-machine", because the force only works with living creatures and not inaminate cybernetic replacements?

Is that correct?

Partly.
As Darth Yoshi says, its not so much that the artifical parts themselves block force use, it is that they cannot repair Anakin to an extent sufficent to give him back the control over the Force he once had. The cyborging does not make him weaker, but the physical strength and speed he gains cannot make up for his original, Force tuned organics.

So, high-tech cybernetics ain't no match for the living force right?

Indeed, Vader was not too proud of his technological cybernetic enhancements. He knew the power of a cyborg body was insignficant next to the power of the force!

[Rommie2006]

Sorta on topic... Is the forthcomming TV show going to show any of Vader hunting down Jedi? I know that it is supposed to be based around minor characters, but a pilot with Vader dueling with and killing some more Jedi would be just the thing to get people to watch. It will also help clear up some of this argument perhaps.

Don't think so. It's gonna be on spin-off characters. Crap.
I would rather have seen the "Adventures of Young Darth Vader", and the countless Jedi he killed.

I heard it's been pushed backed to 2007 too. Double crap.

[Rommie2006]

Another thing to consider is, we have no idea how much some of Vader's needed cyberknitic components weighed.

I mean, no matter how strong you are in the force, having an extra 10 - 40 pounds of life support gear built into you is going to slow you down.

Also 2 things to consider.

#1- Vader, post RoTS hunted down and killed Jedi Knights and Masters. Any the Clones (and later Stormtroopers) didn't get, he did. Notables of this include the infamous Dark Woman (One of the finest duelest in the Jedi Order) which he killed shortly before ANH.
Also, if one EU source that some put into canon and others do not is to be believed, he took down a resurrected Darth Maul. (That's probably Infinities, but I love mentioning it)
Who knows how many Jedi Knights, Masters, Padawan's, Dark Siders he took down.

Most of the accounts of his post-ROTS Jedi purge come from those comics, which I would not really count as hard evidence.
Besides, IMO I think the best (in terms of skill and power) of the Jedi were killed during the purge, and he was probably left with the stragglers. Whatever Jedi Master he fought was probably the typical standard no-challenge type. And what's up with Darth Maul? I wouldn't rank him as extremely skilled or powerful.

His power levels were awesome. With his body in such a sad shape, he made up for it in other ways. Hell, it's possible that his TK abilities were to the point he didn't need to be fast and fancy, as he completely limited his opponents movements, givien Vader, who had to get used to that style of fighting, a major advantage.

Speculation. But possible. Unfortunately, I think this was never implied in any SW literature right?

I mean, his powers levels were to the point were, in Return of the Jedi, he had his hand sliced off, got up, saw his son being deep-fried, grabbed up the Emperor (the man that cooked Mace Windu and beat Yoda), took the lightning, stayed on his feet and tossed the Emperor down the Death's Star's reactor shaft like he was yesterday's trash.

True, Palpatine is a bad ass. But Luke was taking the lightning way longer than Vader did. Vader probably had an intense but brief jolt at worst.

Besides, the power of Force Lightning is so varied - from Palpatine's blast Mace out of the window, to Dooku's fry Anakin till he can't stand for a few minutes, to Palpatine's fry Luke and take his time... it's not possible to predict which "setting" it was on. Besides, the lightning was directed at him.

#2- It's entirely possible, from a psychological point of view, Vader was enjoying his duel with Obi-wan. I mean, by that point, Vader was seriously over in the Dark Side. A few months after the duel with Obi-wan, the idea of freezing his own son was nothing to him.
Any, it's possible Vader was delibrately dragging the fight out, you know, "Hey, Old Man. You might have sliced off my arms and legs last time, but this time, I can crush you like and ant, so I'm going to enjoy every second I can of this".

Again speculation. This could be true, or any of the other possible scenarios that have been posted before.

[Shroom Man 777]

Vader had an intense but brief jolt, alright. A brief jolt that lit him up like a Christmas tree and made his bones visible through his fucking armor!

Anyway, in case if anyone's wondering if SW cybernetics ain't all its cracked up to be, I direct you to General Grevious.