Help with the “Mask”

[Hot Hands Harry]

As above I am in a debate with a trekie and I barley remember the episode “Mask“. All I remember is that it has an Ice comet in it.

I would appreciate any help from people more familiar with it. Like scaling or calculations. I have looked around and haven’t found anything on it.

[AdmiralKanos]

As above I am in a debate with a trekie and I barley remember the episode “Mask“. All I remember is that it has an Ice comet in it.

I would appreciate any help from people more familiar with it. Like scaling or calculations. I have looked around and haven’t found anything on it.

You would need screenshots for scaling, and as I recall, the ice-encrusted library appeared much closer to the camera than the Enterprise, which renders scaling difficult at best. All you can say about it is that the Enterprise melted some ice off a floating library; unless you can scale the library (and I don't recall seeing enough information to be able to scale it), this means little. Even with that information, the ice is formed around a solid object which remains undamaged, and it's difficult (perhaps impossible) to estimate average thickness all the way around the object.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't see what possible point could be made with this example....

Didn't they know there was something under the ice? Naturally they wouldn't have wanted to blow it away with max phasers. (Assuming they had this capability)

[Lord Poe]

In Ds9's "Destiny", the Defiant managed to break apart a small comet into three pieces with its phasers. (They wanted to completely destroy it and surprise, were MODIFYING the phasers for max output. Sabotage prevented this, and "normal" phaser power was used) Kinda puts that "make the planet a smoking cinder" argument into perspective, eh?

[Chris OFarrell]

In Ds9's "Destiny", the Defiant managed to break apart a small comet into three pieces with its phasers. (They wanted to completely destroy it and surprise, were MODIFYING the phasers for max output. Sabotage prevented this, and "normal" phaser power was used) Kinda puts that "make the planet a smoking cinder" argument into perspective, eh?

Yes when you look at the fact that the modifications were to have the phasers completly ENVELOP the comet in a single sustained widebeam attack, to ensure none of the exotic material the comet was made from entered the wormhole. But the phasers simply fired in their normal mode into the CENTER of the chunk and shattered it.

Nice attempt at completly misrepresenting the situation though. Quotes follow:

SISKO
(continuing)
Chief... Dax feels that we can't
risk using tractor beams to deflect
the comet.

DEEP SPACE: "Destiny" - REV. 12/19/94 - ACT FOUR 40.

30 CONTINUED: (2)

DAX
It would probably break up into
smaller pieces and we'd have a bigger
mess on our hands.

GILORA
The same thing would happen if you
tried to destroy it with a phaser
beam.

O'BRIEN
Not necessarily. I could modify the
Defiant's phaser array to generate a
beam wide enough to encompass the
entire comet.

ULANI
(nods)
Vaporizing it evenly so it won't
break up.

And

DAX
Holding position at ten kilometers.

SISKO
Shields up... go to Red Alert.

The Red Alert lights come on.

SISKO
(beat)
Fire...

O'Brien works his controls. Suddenly an unmanned CONSOLE in
the aft part of the bridge EXPLODES in a shower of sparks.
Simultaneously, O'Brien's tactical console goes dead.

39 EXT. SPACE - THE DEFIANT (OPTICAL)

as the ship's gatling-gun phasers fire a series of quick
bursts -- they hit the comet and it EXPLODES into THREE
SMALLER PIECES that continue their trajectory, each spewing
a tail behind it.

40 INT. DEFIANT - BRIDGE (OPTICAL)

as everyone reacts to what's happened.

SISKO
What the hell happened, Chief?

DEEP SPACE: "Destiny" - REV. 12/19/94 - ACT FOUR 49.

40 CONTINUED:

O'Brien has moved to the aft console and is poking around
inside the smoking panel.

O'BRIEN
I don't know, sir... the entire
weapons relay just blew out... all
defensive systems are down.

DAX
(off console)
Benjamin, sensors show that the
modified phasers never came on-line --
we fired a standard burst and it
shattered the comet instead of
vaporizing it.

Clearly showing the Defiants phasers had more then sufficent power to vaporise the comet (which wasn't just ice, it was made up also of some weird technobabble material that would have destroyed the wormhole), sabotage however caused it to fire normaly directly into the center of the target, probably vaporisng the core violently enough to shatter it.

Thankyou, come again

[Bounty]

As above I am in a debate with a trekie and I barley remember the episode “Mask“. All I remember is that it has an Ice comet in it.

Useful references :

Script
Screencaps

[Bounty]

Rats, no edit.

Relevant parts :

DATA
(continuing)
The comet's outer shell is
composed primarily of gaseous
hydrogen and helium surrounding an
icy mantle. The inner core
consists of heavier elements--

and

WORF
Captain, phasers are set for wide
dispersal, ten percent maximum
power. The beam will terminate
automatically when the comet's
core is reached.

E and comet
Fire1
Fire2
Fire3
Last bits of ice melting[/url
[url=http://tng.trekpulse.com/episodes/seaso ... sks073.jpg]D'Arsay library

[Chris OFarrell]

Well you MIGHT be able to scale off the beam if you assume its width stayed consistent. Phasers generaly do, its rare that they expand when firing startship to starship.

[Lord Poe]

Nice attempt at completly misrepresenting the situation though. Quotes follow:

How did I misrepresent the scene, asshole? Did I NOT say the Defiant originally wanted to destroy the entire comet with modified phasers, but ended up shooting it with "normal" phasers?

Clearly showing the Defiants phasers had more then sufficent power to vaporise the comet

Which I didn't question. What I DID bring up was that idiotic "make a planet into a smoking cinder" that the most idiotic of Trekkies actually believes is true. If they have to "modify" the phasers to "vaporize" an ice cube, what the fuck would they have to do to singe a planet?

[Chris OFarrell]

Nice attempt at completly misrepresenting the situation though. Quotes follow:

How did I misrepresent the scene, asshole? Did I NOT say the Defiant originally wanted to destroy the entire comet with modified phasers, but ended up shooting it with "normal" phasers?

Direct quote:

"They wanted to completely destroy it and surprise, were MODIFYING the phasers for max output"

They were NOT modifying the phasers for maximum output, the direct implication of which I am sure you know is that they had to modify the phaser to gain more power to take out said Comet. The only modification they had to make was to make the phasers fire in a single wide blast to get the entire thing at once, rather then fire in normal mode (and in normal mode and never said to be at maximum power, the Defiants phasers were quite sufficient to fragment the target quite violently).

You were clearly trying to twist the scene by implying that the Defiants phasers needed to be modified to gain sufficient firepower to vaporise the comet. Where as the truth was they had more then sufficient firepower, it was the even application of it that was the crisis in the episode.

Clearly showing the Defiants phasers had more then sufficient power to vaporise the comet

Which I didn't question.

Of course not. You only heavily implied that the Defiant could barely handle it with modifications, then contrasted it with the quote from 'Severed Link' to clearly ask that if the Defiant had so much trouble with said comet, how could the Severed Link quote POSSIBLY be correct?!?!....though somehow I doubt you will see it that way of course.

What I DID bring up was that idiotic "make a planet into a smoking cinder" that the most idiotic of Trekkies actually believes is true. If they have to "modify" the phasers to "vaporize" an ice cube, what the fuck would they have to do to singe a planet?

The clear difference being that they had to vaporise the ENTIRE comet evenly to prevent any of the techno babble material from getting into the wormhole. A planet doesn't require any such finess being a huge bloody target that you can bombard easily enough. I would also point out the Defiant is unlikely to be designed for planetary assault and Garak was actually trying to launch the ships Quantum Torpedoes, then he went for the phasers afterwards as a bonus.

Wayne, your clearly trying to contrast the first with the later, then ask how the hell could they take on a planet if they can’t take on a comet? When they always COULD take on a comet there was NEVER any issue of firepower, just its application to evenly encompass the target. If you want to claim you never meant it, whatever. Frankly I think your just me-tooing the way you jumped into the thread to beat on a dead horse with your two cents about a completely unrelated issue to the initial comet, but if you refuse to admit it, I simply don’t care.

[seanrobertson]

This shot permits some quick scaling:



I measured the Enterprise's nacelles at 250m--about 39% of the ship's overall length. That D'Arsay thing's at a bit of an odd angle, but it appears to be [very roughly] a mile high.

Since the comet was spherical and seemed to completely conceal the archive, its volume would be approx. 2.173E9 m^3: as you can see in Bounty's "Fire3," the archive's not buried under much ice at all, so the comet's diameter needn't be much more than the archive's height.

I didn't take much care to measure the archive's other dimensions. It does look as if it's about 850m wide at its fattest point, but the slimmer, top half doesn't look a lot wider or deeper than the E-D's saucer. (And I think we can safely ignore the steeple. )

What we might do, then, is to break the archive up into halves: the lower part which, assuming the thing's as "long" as it is wide, is about 850^2x800 (5.78E8m^3); and the top, which is less than 460^2x800 (1.7E8m^3).

Add them up and you get 7.48E8m^3. Subtract that from the comet's volume and you get ~1.43E9m^3 of ice.

That's a fair amount, but Harry, remind your opponent what we're talking about here: ICE! Phasers are many thousands of times less effective against rock, and less effective still vs. metal.

[Hot Hands Harry]

Thanks every one especially seanrobertson for his scaling and Bounty for screen shots and script. For some unknown reason he thinks this gets phasors into the GT range.

I have already told him that it was ice and phasors work really well on it. But he has BS and said that phasors work better on rock. I’m working on it but he’s being an ass.

[Solauren]

Tell him the best proof rocks are harder then water will be found when he attempts to go swimming in rock

[brianeyci]

If I'm not mistaken there is a TNG episode where the ship's main phasers have to tunnel through the crust of a planet. I remember the calcs being pathetic. If you search on the main site you will find it.

Brian

[Lord Poe]

They were NOT modifying the phasers for maximum output, the direct implication of which I am sure you know is that they had to modify the phaser to gain more power to take out said Comet. The only modification they had to make was to make the phasers fire in a single wide blast to get the entire thing at once, rather then fire in normal mode (and in normal mode and never said to be at maximum power, the Defiants phasers were quite sufficient to fragment the target quite violently).

And that's not a max output? Making the phaser array fire one big, fat phaser, with all the power of SEVERAL normal phaser shots? THAT'S not a max power modification to you?

You were clearly trying to twist the scene by implying that the Defiants phasers needed to be modified to gain sufficient firepower to vaporise the comet. Where as the truth was they had more then sufficient firepower, it was the even application of it that was the crisis in the episode.

No, idiot. Its quite clrear, right from the goddamned episode, that normal phaser fire couldn't vaporoize the entire thing in one shot. THAT'S why they modified the phasers to fire a "super" phaser shot. Do you fucking get it now?

Of course not. You only heavily implied that the Defiant could barely handle it with modifications, then contrasted it with the quote from 'Severed Link' to clearly ask that if the Defiant had so much trouble with said comet, how could the Severed Link quote POSSIBLY be correct?!?!....though somehow I doubt you will see it that way of course.

No, because I'm not an idiot like you are. If the Defiant's normal phaser output couldn't vape an ice cube, but only SHATTER it, what the fuck is the Defiant going to do against a goddamned PLANET? Let alone that silly "burn it to a cinder" bullshit. And that was "Broken Link", by the way.

The clear difference being that they had to vaporise the ENTIRE comet evenly to prevent any of the techno babble material from getting into the wormhole. A planet doesn't require any such finess being a huge bloody target that you can bombard easily enough.

The clear difference being that a comet is a fucking dirty snowball. A planet is not. A snowball is much easier to vape than searing a rock.

I would also point out the Defiant is unlikely to be designed for planetary assault and Garak was actually trying to launch the ships Quantum Torpedoes, then he went for the phasers afterwards as a bonus.

That dodge does nothing to deflect the fact that the limited number of quantum torpedoes Defiant carries won't make an entire planet into a "smoking cinder".

Wayne, your clearly trying to contrast the first with the later, then ask how the hell could they take on a planet if they can’t take on a comet? When they always COULD take on a comet there was NEVER any issue of firepower, just its application to evenly encompass the target.

Of COURSE its an issue of firepower, stupid. They had to modify the phasers to fire all their power in one big blast, rather than several of them. Jesus fucking Christ...

If you want to claim you never meant it, whatever. Frankly I think your just me-tooing the way you jumped into the thread to beat on a dead horse with your two cents about a completely unrelated issue to the initial comet, but if you refuse to admit it, I simply don’t care.

Eat shit as usual, Chris. You knew exactly what I meant, but you're showing your trademarked idiocy you so expertly crafted on ASVS.

[Hot Hands Harry]

Lord Poe, do you know what the diameter of the ice asteroid was in “Destiny” so I could run it though the calculator and get a yield.

I’ve run my own numbers for “Mask” and have a rough fire power. For maximum possible power and not 10% and assuming it is a linier power curve. Upper 107 MT if it was solid ice and no library. 11 MT if just the ice and with out the NDF effect. Finally I got 1.625 MT taking into effect that the Enterprise stopped firing and the rest of the ice ball dissipated on its own. I think 1.625 is the most likely number against ice.

Now these are rough numbers and involve upping it to full power and in seconds.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Lord Poe, do you know what the diameter of the ice asteroid was in “Destiny” so I could run it though the calculator and get a yield.

Well we don't know the properties of the technobable substance silithium exept that it's bad for wormholes which makes it impossible to calculate anything.

[Hot Hands Harry]

Luzifer's right hand

Well we don't know the properties of the technobable substance silithium exept that it's bad for wormholes which makes it impossible to calculate anything.

True silithium is a techno babble substance. But it was with the ice so it must have had similar properties. They were expecting it to be destroyed with the ice so it probable is not much tougher then ice. But if it comes down to it I could just bump it up to iron-nickel if I have to.

[Luzifer's right hand]

True silithium is a techno babble substance. But it was with the ice so it must have had similar properties.
They were expecting it to be destroyed with the ice so it probable is not much tougher then ice. But if it comes down to it I could just bump it up to iron-nickel if I have to.

Frankly that's an odd argument. You can find stuff like iron and iridium in real comets . Just because it's with the ice does not mean that it has similar properties.