Trekkie Combat, Writer Combat, Realistic Combat...

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-17 10:07am

I've looked over the Main Site, and I've wondered: What about a Star Wars version of the Trekkie, Writer and Realistic Combat scenarios...

Of course, it's been more than a year since the main site was updated, but would it be a good Idea to do Warsie versions?

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2005-08-19 12:33am

Maybe. The attempt to rescue Princess Leia from the Death Star could've been better planned and executed, although the writer of the page must have EXTENSIVE knowledge of military tactics to avoid being branded a troll.

Plushie · Post by **Plushie** » 2005-08-19 02:11am

Sidewinder wrote:Maybe. The attempt to rescue Princess Leia from the Death Star could've been better planned and executed, although the writer of the page must have EXTENSIVE knowledge of military tactics to avoid being branded a troll.

Well, to be fair, the rescue of Leia wasn't a military operation.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-08-19 02:36am

I think you've missed the point of the page. The point isn't that ST combat could be better/more successful, but that the writers and fans have no intention (or clue) of showing how realistic military actions occur. Plot and 'the importance of family' drives the show, rather than the use of armoured vehicles, air support or special forces.

Star Wars combat, while often run by madmen (ie Palpatine) or unsuccessful (Naboo) is not the one-note affair ST combat is. It can easily be critisized, but in the same way any military action can.

As an alternative, how about a 'SW battles in a ST mode', such that Hoth is a blockade by a single starship, the ground defences are disabled by a traitor who is won over by Imperial moral preaching, the ground battle is won by personal heroism of a main character (who ideally shouldn't even be there), and we hear about the hobbies/families/hopes/dreams of every Stormie or rebel that dies onscreen. After the battle, Darth Vader is wracked with remorse, declaring 'there should have been a peaceful solution!'. Veers should refuse to use a tactic which would easily give him the victory with negligible casualites as it is against Imperial military doctrine.

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-19 05:09am

The point isn't that ST combat could be better/more successful, but that the writers and fans have no intention (or clue) of showing how realistic military actions occur.

The Macos were as military as I've ever seen in Star Trek, and they were pre-Federation.

Star Wars combat, while often run by madmen (ie Palpatine) or unsuccessful (Naboo) is not the one-note affair ST combat is. It can easily be critisized, but in the same way any military action can.

Well.. the Naboo Mission was ran by Greedy Traders who knew very little about combat... and relied on the cheapness of Battle Droids.

As an alternative, how about a 'SW battles in a ST mode'

Now the Battle of Hoth would be funny to see... primarily because of this:

After the battle, Darth Vader is wracked with remorse, declaring 'there should have been a peaceful solution!'.

That would be classic, just imagining Darth-fricking-Vader being remorseful, about anybody, is funny, but a bloody Stormtrooper...?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-08-19 07:11am

Stark wrote:Star Wars combat, while often run by madmen (ie Palpatine) or unsuccessful (Naboo) is not the one-note affair ST combat is. It can easily be critisized, but in the same way any military action can.

Actually, I'd disagree with that. Imperial operations tend to make some sense. Rebel operations are often all luck. There is a reason why there was a thread awhile back in PSW asking whether there were any actions in which the Rebel Alliance beat the Empire fair and square (that we actually get some details on) - because there really weren't that many.

Read the entire X-Wing series. Or Dark Empire. Or Vector Prime of NJO. Or even TPM, ANH, ROTJ... it is all really, if you look critically rather than trying to rationalize whatever you see, a great big long series of copouts and deux ex machinas.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-19 09:53am

Darkane wrote: The Macos were as military as I've ever seen in Star Trek, and they were pre-Federation.

One example, and even then only seen in small scale ground combat.

Well.. the Naboo Mission was ran by Greedy Traders who knew very little about combat... and relied on the cheapness of Battle Droids.

How cheap was the heavy equipment the droids were using? Are you on crack? They may have relied on overwhelming numbers of mass produced droids but "cheap" isn't a word I would use for their vehicles, or their capital ships for that matter. And those "Greedy Traders" had a "battle hardened" droid army, as spoken by Captain Panaka in TPM, meaning that they had commanders with combat experience and that the officers running the TF military weren't soley focused on profit margin.
[/quote]

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-19 10:05am

One example, and even then only seen in small scale ground combat.

Was I sticking up for them at that point? No, just mentioning them.

How cheap was the heavy equipment the droids were using? Are you on crack? They may have relied on overwhelming numbers of mass produced droids but "cheap" isn't a word I would use for their vehicles, or their capital ships for that matter. And those "Greedy Traders" had a "battle hardened" droid army, as spoken by Captain Panaka in TPM, meaning that they had commanders with combat experience and that the officers running the TF military weren't soley focused on profit margin.

Yes... but the Neimoidians themselves made some pretty stupid combat choices. And the Droids running the things were quite cheap themselves... though it may have been a "Just in Case the AI turns on us" move...

The Super Battle Droids and Droidekas, which made up a significant portion of the Later Droid army were much more impressive...

I think it was because they weren't prepared for a Force Senstive with a Star Fighter and two Proton Torpedoes personally...

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-19 10:39am

Dakarne wrote:Was I sticking up for them at that point? No, just mentioning them.

Then there was litte or no point in doing it, like most of your posts.

Yes... but the Neimoidians themselves made some pretty stupid combat choices.

The only thing stupid about what they were doing (aside from letting a Sith control their destiny) was not having a way of allowing the droids to function without the Control Ship. If Anakin Skywalker doesn't miraculously kill that ship things go very differently on Naboo. But you keep referring to "stupid combat choices" like they were absolutely fucking everything up, so give me one example of Neimoidian combat ineptitude during TPM. The Control Ship's destruction was an absolute miracle/fluke and a failure to enable the droids to function without that ship is not a combat failure.

And the Droids running the things were quite cheap themselves... though it may have been a "Just in Case the AI turns on us" move...

The preventative measure against Droid Rebellion was the Droid Control Ship and the remote transmitters likely the same as what Nute Gunray used in RoTS.

As for the 'cheapness' of these battledroids. Why should they be expensive? If you are building a military deisgned for Planetary Occupation would you always rather have one heavily armed droid with lots of shielding or 10-20 droids for the equivalent cost? They performed well as soldiers were also capable of acting as pilots and if some of the games are to be believed then they filled a variety of combat functions as well.

The Super Battle Droids and Droidekas, which made up a significant portion of the Later Droid army were much more impressive...

Oh and lets see, the Droidekas weren't part of the original TF Army? Oh wait that's right, they were fielded fairly extensively on Naboo. And if it wasn't for the B1 there would be no B2.

I think it was because they weren't prepared for a Force Senstive with a Star Fighter and two Proton Torpedoes personally...

Really? Well there goes my theory that they were.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2005-08-19 11:48am

Kind of off topic, but should we be expecting some updates to this page?

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-19 11:52am

@Wicked Pilot:

I'd like to see the Battle of Utapau done in that fashion...

@Fanboy:

I concede, you obviously know better than I do.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-08-19 12:05pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Kind of off topic, but should we be expecting some updates to this page?

I have been thinking of making a thread on some of the clone wars battles in that style.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-19 12:09pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Kind of off topic, but should we be expecting some updates to this page?

Coruscant, Utapau, and a bonus one for Mustafar replacing Obi Wan or Anakin with Data/Worf/Ripped Shirt Kirk.

And on the other side, the battle of the Big Green Cloud in Nemesis, but then again SW technology makes that entire situation irrelevant.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-19 12:10pm

Mos Eisley Edit:

Geonosis also.

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-19 12:16pm

a bonus one for Mustafar replacing Obi Wan or Anakin with Data/Worf/Ripped Shirt Kirk.

Okay... now the emboldened one is entirely unfair...

But I'd love to see all of these.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-08-19 01:20pm

Dakarne wrote:The Macos were as military as I've ever seen in Star Trek, and they were pre-Federation.

'Course, we see what happened to the Federation come TNG, and in real life weren't the MACOs only there to give a more action-y feel to Trek, albeit at an angle that the Federation post-TNG (in both chronology and real life) didn't have?

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-19 02:15pm

'Course, we see what happened to the Federation come TNG, and in real life weren't the MACOs only there to give a more action-y feel to Trek, albeit at an angle that the Federation post-TNG (in both chronology and real life) didn't have?

I think that either way, it's safe to say that the Federation became more and more politically correct, to the point where normal, conventional ground troops, were just removed from the equation. They do have some form of military, just not a ground-based one.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-08-19 06:26pm

Just all starships, starbases and naval (Starfleet) personnel aboard?

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-19 06:28pm

Just all starships, starbases and naval (Starfleet) personnel aboard?

That'd about cover it.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-08-19 07:18pm

Wonder if they actually had security personnel to fill that billet, or ...

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2005-08-19 11:02pm

Dakarne wrote:I think that either way, it's safe to say that the Federation became more and more politically correct, to the point where normal, conventional ground troops, were just removed from the equation. They do have some form of military, just not a ground-based one.

The terrifying thing is the real-world US military was heading in that direction-- and might still be heading in that direction-- just when Americans needed the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps as our first line of defense against al-Qaida and other Islamic militants.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-08-19 11:07pm

Dakarne wrote:
Just all starships, starbases and naval (Starfleet) personnel aboard?
That'd about cover it.

The argument I've heard and I guess agree with is that Starfleet has invested itself in the idea of space superiority rather than ground forces. Since planetary shields are not widely used nor powerful enough to really deter a large force, any enemy army could or would be destroyed by orbital fire.

The Federation tends to expand it's territory via diplomacy and 'accepting' new planets into it rather than conquest, so a large standing army would not make sense to them.

The down side is when they get into a brawl with powers with an army, they tend to be a bit behind the power curve since not every situation can be resolved with shipboard phasers.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2005-08-19 11:47pm

Knife wrote:The Federation tends to expand it's territory via diplomacy and 'accepting' new planets into it rather than conquest, so a large standing army would not make sense to them.

Which begs the question-- the Federation has a poor economy-- it's run by Communists, for God's sake!-- a piss-poor history of humanitarian aid, thanks to a rather cold interpretation of the Prime Directive-- Picard keeps letting millions of people suffer and die, thanks to that shit!-- and a military that, up to the time of the Dominion War, was little more than a paper tiger. Why the hell would any competent planetary government want membership in the Federation?

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2005-08-20 12:11am

Human planets probably like the Feds because of the Imperium of Man factor. As in, they're all terrible governments but we like the Federation more because they're the most competant major power and the human-based one.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-08-20 12:16am

Sidewinder wrote:
Knife wrote:The Federation tends to expand it's territory via diplomacy and 'accepting' new planets into it rather than conquest, so a large standing army would not make sense to them.
Which begs the question-- the Federation has a poor economy-- it's run by Communists, for God's sake!-- a piss-poor history of humanitarian aid, thanks to a rather cold interpretation of the Prime Directive-- Picard keeps letting millions of people suffer and die, thanks to that shit!-- and a military that, up to the time of the Dominion War, was little more than a paper tiger. Why the hell would any competent planetary government want membership in the Federation?

*shrug* better than eating worms and Klingon Coffee.