The Culture vs DBZ

[consequences]

Energy contained in a small area is bullshit if it is released as an explosion, rather than contained, as we see with the Chi En Zan, and the energy sword used by one of Cooler's minions.
Specific example of picosecond reaction times being a result of your head up your ass: When Majin Vegita turns evil, and nukes part of the stadium, the crowd has time to react and panic before the second blast. If Goku and Vegita could react in picoseconds, and knew the other had the same ability, they would have to be on their guard and paying attention to each individual picosecond, to avoid being ambushed. If they react to a picosecond like you or I do to a second, then the 30 seconds or so involved in the sequence I am using as a reference stretches out to approximately a million years in relative time.

[Yogi]

As I said, the Anime slows down action and adds in filler.

Energy contained in a small area is a part of Dragon Ball Physics. It's similar to Sound in Space. I can argue that since you can hear all the individual fighters, and that they sound the same whem moving towards or away from the viewer, then they must be moving so slowly, that the doppler effect is not even noticable. Since I can hear a diffrence with a fire truck, the fighters must be slower than fire trucks!

(Why real life physics does not always apply)

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Dragon Ball Physics? Weird, IMO. Like Dragonball, this debate has gone OTT.

[Yogi]

It's generally an accepted fact that each fantasy universe has weird laws of physics that allow things to happen that won't normally happen (faster than light travel, casting magic spells, throwing Ki blasts, Dragons etc.) Why would the Dragon Ball universe be any diffrent?

[Connor MacLeod]

If real life physics can't be applied consistently, then it can't be analyzed.

[Connor MacLeod]

Re: Destruction of Moon.
In DBZ-physics, energy can be controlled even after it has left the user. A good example of this is Goku making time-bomb Kamehamehas that fire only when he wants them to (when he is several hundred meters away) controlling the path of the Kamehamehas in flight, Freiza controlling his energy discs remotely etc. The energy went away from the earth.

Prove that this means they can control the effects of the energy discharge against a target (IE control the effects AFTER contact.) We can guide and manuver missiles in flight, but that doesnt mean we can control the detonation of the warhead in the same manner.

Re: Freiza and the Planet
Freiza stated that the 5 min things was intentional. Remember, Freiza wanted some time to get away from the planrt as well. Besides, Freiza said that the blast has "destroyed the core" meaning that it had already drilled through all of the earth.

Yet the minute the bolt hits the planet, it should have been blasted apart, had it contained planet shattering energies (it was at BEST drilling a big hole to the core.) Even IF it was intentional, it still was NOTHING like what we saw with the DS, and cannot be compared as such.

Re: Vegeta vs. Yajirobe
When people put their KI in their weapons, it becomes stronger. When Trunks was fighting the Androids, you can hee both him AND his sword glowing with the Super Saiya-jin aura (History of Trunks)

Prove that this is a common ability among Z fighters, rather than a special ability some (like Trunnks) might possess.

For that matter, how could Krillin have charged it? Both he and Goku (and Vegeta) were out of Ki.

Re: Kuririn vs. Nappa
The Ki-en-zan is a specialty attack designed to take out people several times more powerful than onself. It's advantage is that it cuts, which is diffrent from most DBZ attacks. It is also rather slow, it's weak points. Since the human fighters were weak, they develop better techniques to make up for it (The Kiko-hou is a good example)

Again, this proves my point as with Krillin and Yajirobi's sword, and that they can be harmed by far less devastating attacks (and engage with/employ) far less energetic attacks typically (as we see consistently in the series.) At best, the planet destroying/planet killing examples represent exceptions rather than the rule.

Re: Roshi and the Moon and blast speed
Roshi's blasts are not that fast. However, the Culture will not be fighting against Roshi, but against Buu, Vegetto, and the like. I'm just using him as a benchmark.

Yet as I recall, noone has ever done an attack that was not clearly SEEN to be propogating (IE they didn't fire a blast at someone, and the person was hit by an invisible force in a fraction of a second.) Nor do I recall any sort of combat at FTL distances (As the Culture can and regularly does.)

For that matter you have not addressed the point that a number of your "variables" are little more than unsubstantiated assumptiosn (the "5 meter" distance in the RAdditz calcs was not proven, nor was the .47c comment - just some dumb-ass refernece to "previous calcs" whose authority could be just as questionable.)

And beyond that, you still haven't proven that there is a proportionate increase in ALL capabilities when power level rises. (you understand the concept of proof, dont you?)

Re:Freiza and his fast attacks
I'm using this little thing called Math. If people at increased PL obviously fight at increased speed, but the combat is the same relativ to each other, then attack speed, reaction speed, movement speed, attack power, defense power etc. all must increase proportionally with each other.

As stated above, you're using questionable assumptions and unsupported variables. at BEST, its a guesstimate. At worse, you're pulling bullshit out of your ass.

Re: Power up
Not in the Manga

So then it doesnt explicitly contradict the show, since as you stated below there is no way to time events in teh manga.

Re: Detecting energy at Long Ranges
Goku detected where New Namek was, and he had no idea where it was.

Detecting a planet is not the same as detecting a warship.

Re: Seeing blasts
In the Manga, which is more canon than the Anime, the action is measures in panels, not seconds. Therefore, there is no real way to measure how fast they're going. You see someone punch in one panel, another person goes flying in the next, no real way to tell how much time passes just from that. In the Anime, they actually have to SHOW the action.

And how does this contradict the fact we still see the blasts propogating. The very FACT we see them is proof of their speeds. (Do you see bullets when they fire?)

Re: Power Level
Freiza & co. have these little devices called "Scouters" that analyze how much energy a person is protucing, and spite out a number on how powerful that person is. Even people watching the Dubbed DBZ know about Power Level, so do a search on it.

I could say the same for you and the scientific method.

Re: Reaction Time and Power Level
Someone more powerful has regularly been shown as traveling much faster than people of lower level and doing everything (reacting, fighting, dodging) at increased speed. Please watch the show, and give me a nickel every time someone says "He was so fast, I couldn't even follow his movements!" I really need some extra cash.

In other words, you're too lazy to cite examples, and attempt to foist the work off on others without proving your assertions. Concession accepted.

If you're going to make the claim they "regularly" move at high speeds, then prove it. And tell us just how fast "fast" is.

Re: Normal Humans and Dramatic Events
Remember what the camera caught of the Goku vs. Perfect Cell fight? Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothings and . . . NOTHING. It could catch the fighters standing, and the other Z fighters (as well as the audience) can see the action, but if you actually saw the section, they mension repeatedly that common people can see NOTHING.
For Dramatic events they just stand there. Nothing hard about that!

Can you prove that this was an exception rather than a rule? And can you cite just how fast "fast" is?

Re: Affects on surroundings
The energy is contained in a small area. Before you say that it's bullshit, what are Lightsabers again?

Its bullshit. There's orders of magnitude (literally) difference between the energy in a Saber (and how its delivered, for that matter) and the energy in a large, planet killing energy pulse (much less one that is kiloton, megaton, or gigaton range.)

Learn what "side effects of inputting a large quantity of energy on a planetary enviroment" are.

[Yogi]

Prove that this means they can control the effects of the energy discharge against a target (IE control the effects AFTER contact.) We can guide and manuver missiles in flight, but that doesnt mean we can control the detonation of the warhead in the same manner.

When people unleash Ki, you see thr ground around them being destroyed, but not the ground they are standing on.

Yet the minute the bolt hits the planet, it should have been blasted apart, had it contained planet shattering energies (it was at BEST drilling a big hole to the core.) Even IF it was intentional, it still was NOTHING like what we saw with the DS, and cannot be compared as such.

1) Freiza fires at planet
2) Goku braces for impact
3) Nothing happens
4) Freiza states "My goodness, you must think I've lost my touch. The planet is still safe, but the core is gone. It will blow in 5 min.

You were arguing that the blast took time to travel. I say that the blast traveled fast, not that it could split the planet. If you want a Death Star attack, see Form 1 Freiza nuke Vegeta-sei with little effort.

Prove that this is a common ability among Z fighters, rather than a special ability some (like Trunnks) might possess.

For that matter, how could Krillin have charged it? Both he and Goku (and Vegeta) were out of Ki.

If you're talking about charging the sword with Ki, see Vegeta, Freiza etc. throwing rocks. If the rocks were just normal, 21st Tenkaichi Boduki could take them easily, the rocks would simply break apart if thrown too quickly. The answer:putting energy into the rocks.

If you say that they they had NO ki to attack or defend with, then a sword is just a sword, and flesh is just flesh. Then it will work just like regular humans with regular swords, no contradction there.

Again, this proves my point as with Krillin and Yajirobi's sword, and that they can be harmed by far less devastating attacks (and engage with/employ) far less energetic attacks typically (as we see consistently in the series.) At best, the planet destroying/planet killing examples represent exceptions rather than the rule.

Specialty attacks will work on them, however those attacks are clearly marked as specialty. Prove that regular Ki blasts are cutting. Remember, Nappa was utterly confident that he could take the blast, proving that the vast majority of attacks are power based. It took Vegeta to realize that it was not a normal attack. The Ki-en-zan is CLEARLY the exception.

Yet as I recall, noone has ever done an attack that was not clearly SEEN to be propogating (IE they didn't fire a blast at someone, and the person was hit by an invisible force in a fraction of a second.) Nor do I recall any sort of combat at FTL distances (As the Culture can and regularly does.)

For that matter you have not addressed the point that a number of your "variables" are little more than unsubstantiated assumptiosn (the "5 meter" distance in the RAdditz calcs was not proven, nor was the .47c comment - just some dumb-ass refernece to "previous calcs" whose authority could be just as questionable.)

And beyond that, you still haven't proven that there is a proportionate increase in ALL capabilities when power level rises. (you understand the concept of proof, dont you?)

As I said, in the Anime speed is relative. When Freiza fired his blast to kill Dende, no one could track it. Later on, Cell used the same attack and everyone could see it. People were fighting entire battles faster than the eye could see at the 21st Tenkaichi Boduki, and that was a friendly tournament. Are you saying that they would deliberatly move slower when the fate of the entire universe was at stake? Would you then like to say that all the "bullet time" scenes in The Matrix were actually in real time, and the Agent was just firing really slow bullets?

My .47c calc is for your perusal. All the sources have been listed for your verfication pleasure. Find the place I mis-quoted a source, or made a mistake in my calculation, and tell me about it. Otherwise, it is a valid proof.

Porportional increase in all capabilities. When someone weaker is fighting someone steonger.
1) The stronger person hits harder (Tenchinhan vs. Nappa)
2) The stronger person is tougher (Tenshinhan vs. Nappa)
3) The stronger person is faster (Tenshinhan vs. Nappa)
4) The stronger person reacts faster (Goku vs. Nappa)
5) The stronger person has stronger energy attacks (Kuririn vs. Nappa)

There are TWO exceptions to the rule (USSJ Future Trunks vs. Perfect Cell, and Buffed Perfect Cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan) in which speed does not increase. However, they are stated as exceptions. This is true for everys single fight in recorded Dragon Ball Z history.

Next, you're going to ask someone to prove that Batman has batterangs and carries them around at all times.

As stated above, you're using questionable assumptions and unsupported variables. at BEST, its a guesstimate. At worse, you're pulling bullshit out of your ass.

I'm only going for low end calcs here, so it IS a general Order of Magnitute type guess (and it's all we really need). If you think I made bullshit up, then please point out where I am bullshitting.

So then it doesnt explicitly contradict the show, since as you stated below there is no way to time events in teh manga.

Nope, I said that just be reading the individual frames of the Manga does not tell us how much speed passes. Hence the reason I have to use calcs.

Detecting a planet is not the same as detecting a warship.

True, unless there are a lot of people together on the warship. While Planet Namek was very sparsely populated, the individuals were quite powerful. He'll have problems detecting a small ship.

And how does this contradict the fact we still see the blasts propogating. The very FACT we see them is proof of their speeds. (Do you see bullets when they fire?)

Here's some common sense.

21 Tenkaichi Boduki Kuririn vs. Muten "Jackie Chung" Roshi = Fight over before people knew it even started
The fighters only get more powerful from then on.
The situations become much more dire than a friendly tournament.
And you're saying that they're fighting SLOWER?

Toei had a choice. They could slow things down to make the Anime, or the fight scenes wold last one frame. Since they wanted to make Anime people would watch, they went the other way (a bit too much in the other way).

I could say the same for you and the scientific method.

Listen please. The scientific method requires experimentation. How do I experiment on people who exist only as Manga characters, Anime characters, and the odd fanfiction?

In other words, you're too lazy to cite examples, and attempt to foist the work off on others without proving your assertions. Concession accepted.

If you're going to make the claim they "regularly" move at high speeds, then prove it. And tell us just how fast "fast" is.

Going PURELY off the top of my head.

Goku & Piccolo vs. Radditz: Radditz was moving faster than Goku and Piccolo.
Tenshinhan vs Nappa: Nappa was moving faster than Tenshinhan
Goku vs. Nappa: Goku was moving faster than Nappa
Goku vs. Vegeta: Whoever was stronger at the moment would move faster.
Vegeta vs. Burtur: Burtur was so fast Vegeta coudn't track him
Burtur vs. Goku: Goku was so fast Burtur couldn't track him
Freiza vs. Nail: Freiza was moving so fast Nail couldn't track him (while he wasn't standing there letting Nail hammer on him futily)
Piccolo vs. Freiza: Whoever was stronger at the time would be faster
Freiza vs. Vegeta: Freiza was outclassing Vegeta in speed
Freiza vs. Goku: Whoever was stronger at the moment would be faster
Trunks vs. Freiza's Goons, King Kold, and Freiza: Trunks outclassed them in speed
Vegeta vs. Android 18: After Vegeta tired, Android 18 was outclassing him in speed.
Android 17 & 18 vs. Others: The Androids were clealy faster
Vegeta vs. Form 2 Cell: Vegeta was faster
SSJ2 Gohan vs. Perfect Cell :SSJ2 Gohan schooled Cell in speed.

Is this good enough?

My arguments for high speed were made previously for Form 2 Freiza. Haven't made any calcs for above Freiza Saga yet, just that they are faster. I don't need exact numbers to do that. If you WANT exact numbers, I'll whip some up over Tanksgiving Break.

Can you prove that this was an exception rather than a rule? And can you cite just how fast "fast" is?

During the 21st Tenkaichi Boduki, the 22nd Tenkaichi Boduki, the 23ed Tenkaichi Boduki, and the massive fight against the Saibamen, in all cases no one could see the actual fight.

As for how "fast" is? As I said, I have done calcs for Form 2 Freiza, and shown that other people are faster. That is ALL. As it stands, that looks like it will be enough.

Its bullshit. There's orders of magnitude (literally) difference between the energy in a Saber (and how its delivered, for that matter) and the energy in a large, planet killing energy pulse (much less one that is kiloton, megaton, or gigaton range.)

Learn what "side effects of inputting a large quantity of energy on a planetary enviroment" are.

You know what, Yoda lifts a giant pillar and chucks it away using only his mind. That just violated a bunch of rules of physics right there. If you are going to argue that the DBZers don't toss around planet busters, I will argue that the Force does not Exist. For that matter, I will argue that Culture Technology also violates the rules of physics, and therefore does not exist.

[Yogi]

Now, YOUR turn. For each and every feat you put forward for the Culture, prove that they can do it, that it is standard for the Culture to have that ability, and prove that they constantly use that ability.

[Moonstone Spider]

Re: Dragonball Speed
Saying it happens in the Manga, which is more canon, is an insane claim. I could just as easily claim 2 hours passes between each frame in the comic. There's no reference to how quickly frames in DBZ manga pass so it is inapplicable, but the show, which is still canon, does have time passing in a measurable way.

In Dragonball fights, Battles were not over before they could be observed. Even in the Roshi vs. Goku fight the announcer was able to easily keep up a running dialogue of what was happening in the fight. This was generally the case.

In the fight with Cell, at much higher levels, Mr. Satan and the two cameramen were still able to comment on and observe the events, and even maintain a running dialogue in which they assumed Gohan was a pizza boy bringing Cell Lunch.

However DBZ speed really becomes understandable once the Buu Saga kicks off.

Gotenks, an insanely powerful being with such a high power level Goku considered him his replacement, lasts exactly 30 minutes before seperating. In an early scene of Gotenks, as a Super Saiyan shows off to Picollo by flying around the world 8 times and then defuses, showing that it took 30 minutes to do.

The Earth is 7927 miles around at it's widest point. The scene shows Gotenks flying at various angles so he didn't always go around it at the widest point but this can be a good conservative number. To allow For Gotenks being above the surface let's round this up to 8000 miles.

At 8 times that means Gotenks travelled 64,000 miles in half an hour, for a max speed of 128,000 miles an hour. While impressive for a person, this is nothing to the Culture or even to beings like Superman or the Flash, who can do .9 C. In fact this gives us a speed of only 0.0015625% of light speed.

Against Buu the fight becomes clear again, their speed is unimpressive. Gotenks fights Buu and must defuse after about parts of two episodes, showing that it happened in something close to real-time. Buu Absorbs the new Gotenks (After an hour of battle and a second Fusion) and attacks Gohan, and yet Mr. Satan is able to keep track of the fight and even tries to help by opening fire on Buu with a handgun several times and eventually engaging Buu hand to hand, indicating that this battle was hardly at an exceptional level of speed if a normal human could keep track and even participate. And again, Buu's absorbed fusion wears off and Buu changes in about half an hour, proving that their speed is roughly on par with a normal humans.

Lastly, in every Bloody DBZ fight we see clouds of dust which have time to settle during the fight, often we can see such dust disperse on screen. Frankly having the dust settle takes hours, as anybody who's used a Tractor in the dust bowl can attest. This seems to indicate that DBZ fights may actually be sped up from the incredibly slow rate the Z-fighters really move so that we normal humans are not bored watching it (that's a failed effort btw). There is no other reasonable explanation for huge dust clouds settling in seconds onscreen.

Re: Radittz
Radditz himself commented that Picollo's aim was off after the Special Beam Cannon missed. Ironic how Z-fans miss that bit eh? Any calculations based on his speed must be inherently flawed as he didn't have to move at all, Picollo shot the wrong direction.

Re: Goku's Instant Transmission
Shortly after his first use of Instant Transmission Goku commented that he transforms himself into energy and moves at the speed of light. Since he is able to travel to other solar systems with this trick in seconds this indicates that the DBZ Galaxies are far tinier than our own with stars only a few light-seconds apart, just as their universe is far tinier with only 16 of those galaxies.

[Shadowhawk]

Er, Gotenks flew around the world 8 or more times, not through the world.
The Earth's radius is about 8000 miles. Its circumference is about 24,000 miles.

That's 192000 miles in a half-hour, or 384kmph.
And from what we're shown, he does it much faster, since he sits around and waits for Piccolo to catch up.

[Yogi]

Re: Manga Speed
Please listen to what I said. I used calcs to state what the speed would be, shows that it does not contradict the manga. I then said that the Anime is only representations because of obvious reason.

Re: Observing fights
Roshi vs. Goku, I have no memory of the announcer being able to keep up except towards the end, when both sides were dead tired.
Cell vs. Goku, You decided to gloss over the massive amout of time when normal people could not see anything, and instead point out the one time in which Goku decides to change fighters (in which they weren't fighting, because they were changing fighters)

Re: Gotenks
First, this directly contradicts another section of the series, in which Goku travels Snake Way in two days, certainly faster than this. Second, prove that Gotenks couldn't de-fuse earlier if he so chose.
Satan fighting Buu is pure filler. Come on, even you must have guessed it by now, since when has Satan gone head to head anyone in Z-class power?

Re: Radditz
Nope, you are lying. In the Manga, Radditz states that it would have hurt had he not dodged it.

Re: Goku's Instant Transmission
This is a blatant mis-translation by Funimation. The name of the move is Shukan Idou, which means instanious movement. There is no evidence that the galaxies are smaller, or that there is less distance between them, only that they are less of them. This is like saying that the asteroids the IDS was destroying were hollow. No evidence whatsoever.

[consequences]

As a side note, the Z fighters have showed zero ability to detect technological energy, (Reference: the Entire Fucking Android Saga). The only thing they have been able to find is people who are not attempting to hide their own internal energies.
If Goku translated into ki, and then instantly arrived at his desired destination, then all ki blasts should do the same. Just another example of Akira Toriyama giving us no coherent continuity to follow.
You didn't answer the fact that Gotenks fighting Buu lasted two episodes before losing power, and almost exact match to the 30 minute time limit given for the Fusion Dance
How long was Snake Way exactly oh mighty DBZ expert?

[SPOOFE]

As I said, the Anime slows down action and adds in filler.

Sorry, Junior, that's bullshit. You can't just invent magical wonderful abilities that go contrary to what's shown in the show.

[Cthulhu-chan]

Having no knowlege of the Culture, I will say that Teletubbies destroy all comers!

Oh god, the sun is looking at me again...! Ahhhhhh!

[consequences]

That definitely deserves a poke.

[SWPIGWANG]

power level does not scale linearly with speed....

doesn't the 2nd sayian transformation have uber power but no speed?

[consequences]

That's more like the Super Saiyajin 1 and a half, there's a better version of it used later.

[Yogi]

Sorry, Junior, that's bullshit. You can't just invent magical wonderful abilities that go contrary to what's shown in the show.

To enlighten those who don't know, Dragon Ball is a manga drawn by Akira Toriyama. The show is a (poor) representation of the Manga. It is useful only in that it parallels (most of) the major events. Other than that, it's only other purpose is to demonstrate the tremendous idiocy of Toei and Funimation.

[Yogi]

power level does not scale linearly with speed....

doesn't the 2nd sayian transformation have uber power but no speed?

Actually, it's the third form of SSJ 1. It is also the ONLY form that happens. Nice of you to point out the two exceptions (USSJ Trunks, Buff Perfect Cell) out of ALL of Dragon Ball. My my, two examples out of over two hundred. Surely you can do better!

[SPOOFE]

To enlighten those who don't know, Dragon Ball is a manga drawn by Akira Toriyama. The show is a (poor) representation of the Manga. It is useful only in that it parallels (most of) the major events. Other than that, it's only other purpose is to demonstrate the tremendous idiocy of Toei and Funimation.

Spouting gibberish now, Junior? What in the name of Beelzebub's bunghole does that have to do with anything written in this thread?

But, no, let me try a different tac: Is it or is it not possible to analyze the events depicted in DBZ utilizing real physics as a baseline, objective mode of analysis?

[consequences]

No, it is not, You have to throw out conservation of energy at the very start, then chuck out relativity if we are to believe his speed figures. The light and sound have to operate under completely different principles in that universe if we are to believe his drivel. Finally, the effects of gravity have to propagate differently, because the characters are dense enough to swallow entire galaxies instantly.

[Admiral Valdemar]

How on Earth is this thing still going?! And how, as a Vulture, did I miss it?!

[XaLEv]

How on Earth is this thing still going?! And how, as a Vulture, did I miss it?!

Too busy wondering what the fuck a winpeg is?

[Admiral Valdemar]

How on Earth is this thing still going?! And how, as a Vulture, did I miss it?!

Too busy wondering what the fuck a winpeg is?

Shaddup!

[Thunderfire]

I think this will lead to the old tech vs magic debate.
Tech has to follow the rules of physic magic doesn't.
DBZ definatly falls into the magic category.