Darth Vader vs Ben Kenobi (Rematch at Death Star). Who wins?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-08-18 10:29pm

Although against non-Jedi and even most Jedi, Grievous was apparently more than a match.

About Luke and Force Lightning, remember that Luke's skeleton wasn't visible once during the time he was electrocuted. Palpatine was probably trying to torture him to death, and maybe break him enough to get him to take the easy way out.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-08-19 03:03am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Anyway, in case if anyone's wondering if SW cybernetics ain't all its cracked up to be, I direct you to General Grevious.

Yeah, but Grievous is different. He's a few organs that are contained inside an advanced battle droid, or whatever the tech term is. The body was designed around small parts. Vader's cybernetics had to work in the confines of what was left of his body. Grievous is the opposite. His organs could have been designed into almost any carrier.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-08-19 08:04pm

Rommie2006 wrote: Actually, if I am not mistaken, from the novelisation which i read a really LONG time ago, Vader could not reach his full potential partly because he could not embrace the Dark Side completely.
I remember reading about how in his meditation chamber, on how he could breathe without his apparatus as he channeled his hatred to the dark side of the force. But he could only sustain for a short period of time. Can anyone confirm this? Or was I dreaming this passage out?

That came from Shadows of the Empire if i'm not mistaken.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-08-19 09:36pm

Lord Pounder wrote:
Rommie2006 wrote: Actually, if I am not mistaken, from the novelisation which i read a really LONG time ago, Vader could not reach his full potential partly because he could not embrace the Dark Side completely.
I remember reading about how in his meditation chamber, on how he could breathe without his apparatus as he channeled his hatred to the dark side of the force. But he could only sustain for a short period of time. Can anyone confirm this? Or was I dreaming this passage out?
That came from Shadows of the Empire if i'm not mistaken.

Indeed it does. It also mentions how he plans to use the dark power his son could wield to help him heal himself.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-08-20 12:12am

Isolder74 wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote:
Rommie2006 wrote: Actually, if I am not mistaken, from the novelisation which i read a really LONG time ago, Vader could not reach his full potential partly because he could not embrace the Dark Side completely.
I remember reading about how in his meditation chamber, on how he could breathe without his apparatus as he channeled his hatred to the dark side of the force. But he could only sustain for a short period of time. Can anyone confirm this? Or was I dreaming this passage out?
That came from Shadows of the Empire if i'm not mistaken.
Indeed it does. It also mentions how he plans to use the dark power his son could wield to help him heal himself.

Wasn't Vader's problem that once he had channeled enough anger and hatred to heal himself, that he became happy and lost the power to maintain his healed body? I really disliked SotE so I only skimmed it, but I thought that part was pretty interesting.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-08-20 12:18am

havokeff wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote: That came from Shadows of the Empire if i'm not mistaken.
Indeed it does. It also mentions how he plans to use the dark power his son could wield to help him heal himself.
Wasn't Vader's problem that once he had channeled enough anger and hatred to heal himself, that he became happy and lost the power to maintain his healed body? I really disliked SotE so I only skimmed it, but I thought that part was pretty interesting.

It was, however with Luke he would have enough power to make the healing permanent and thus wouldnt need to maintain his concentration.

(He used his hate and rage to increase his draw on the dark side, with Luke he wouldnt need them as crutches)

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-08-20 12:20am

havokeff wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:
Lord Pounder wrote: That came from Shadows of the Empire if i'm not mistaken.
Indeed it does. It also mentions how he plans to use the dark power his son could wield to help him heal himself.
Wasn't Vader's problem that once he had channeled enough anger and hatred to heal himself, that he became happy and lost the power to maintain his healed body? I really disliked SotE so I only skimmed it, but I thought that part was pretty interesting.

Yes that was the problem. The good in him was getting in the way of fully calling on the dark side or it was betraying him like it always does in the end

Imperator Galacticus · Post by **Imperator Galacticus** » 2005-08-20 04:00pm

About Vader's cybernetics, I doubt they were the problem that made Vader so weak. Remember, Anakin already had a cybernetic arm in ROTS and was able to fight with it pretty damned fast anyways.

Post-ROTS Vader's cybernetics make him faster and stronger also, but his injured organic flesh has worn him down so much that Vader can't move his cybernetic componets as quickly as he could have pre-ROTS.

And no matter how much his Force potential has been diminished, he's still very powerful with it. Best example that comes to my mind is that Luke can partially lift an X-wing with his telekinesis, but Vader is stronger than Luke for some time past Shadows of the Empire. Hell, I don't think even Dooku has displayed telekinetic strength like that.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-08-20 11:32pm

Yes, Vaders injuries were so extensive and pervasive that they reduced his 'magic points', significantly reducing his ability to use 'spells'. The cybernetics don't 'interfere' with his 'spells'. I think the 'more machine than man' thing is taken the wrong way: he's screwed Force-wise because basically a walking corpse, not because he's augmented. To contrast, he is ridiculously strong and packs lightsabre-deflecting armour, so his augmentations are nothing to sneeze at.

Is Vader still considered a great pilot? I know he flies in ANH, but he gets kills because he specifically tells his wingmates to hang back. He might be held in awe by the Imperial Aviators, but is he ACTUALLY still 'the best pilot in the galaxy'?

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2005-08-21 12:21am

Well, in Shadows of the Empire, the Executor attacks a Rebel space base and Vader decides to fly in his TIE Advanced. After shooting down a bunch of fighters, he gets bored because none of the Rebels are a challenge for him and he's slaughtering them, so he goes back to his command ship.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2005-08-21 04:03am

President Sharky wrote:Well, in Shadows of the Empire, the Executor attacks a Rebel space base and Vader decides to fly in his TIE Advanced. After shooting down a bunch of fighters, he gets bored because none of the Rebels are a challenge for him and he's slaughtering them, so he goes back to his command ship.

But more to the point, he regards Luke as the most powerfull Jedi. Ever.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-08-28 02:10pm

I don't have the time to review the thread as I'm on the clock here on this cafe, but unless noone else has said it, the novelization makes it quite clear that Kenobi was in trouble and faltering in Vader's mere presence before the battle began. Further, Obi-Wan Kenobi couldn't even *detect* Vader stalking him for some time, and when finally confronted by him, was surprised by the "maturity of the mind" before him- don't know why, a 41 year old man is much different from a 23 year old.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2005-08-29 04:03am

Vympel wrote:I don't have the time to review the thread as I'm on the clock here on this cafe, but unless noone else has said it, the novelization makes it quite clear that Kenobi was in trouble and faltering in Vader's mere presence before the battle began. Further, Obi-Wan Kenobi couldn't even *detect* Vader stalking him for some time, and when finally confronted by him, was surprised by the "maturity of the mind" before him- don't know why, a 41 year old man is much different from a 23 year old.

It is true that he did not know Vader was following him, but that is not entirely surprising, give that his hunter is a Sith Lord. Something similar happnes in TPM in the Hanger. But Vaders mere presence didnt cause Kenobi to falter, his speed compared to Vader seems the same {remember that Vader was more powerfull than Kenobi anyway} allthough Vader was goading him.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-08-29 02:17pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
It is true that he did not know Vader was following him, but that is not entirely surprising, give that his hunter is a Sith Lord. Something similar happnes in TPM in the Hanger. But Vaders mere presence didnt cause Kenobi to falter, his speed compared to Vader seems the same {remember that Vader was more powerfull than Kenobi anyway} allthough Vader was goading him.

I'm not saying falter in terms of standing up to him, but in Vader's presence he suddenly felt dizzy and was starting to sweat. I don't have the novelization on me but it's been discussed before. In the novelization, it is that bring's on Vader's taunt that: "your powers are weak."- though Vader readily acknowledges in the novel that his skill (seperate from his power) isn't diminished.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2005-08-30 03:18am

Vympel wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
It is true that he did not know Vader was following him, but that is not entirely surprising, give that his hunter is a Sith Lord. Something similar happnes in TPM in the Hanger. But Vaders mere presence didnt cause Kenobi to falter, his speed compared to Vader seems the same {remember that Vader was more powerfull than Kenobi anyway} allthough Vader was goading him.
I'm not saying falter in terms of standing up to him, but in Vader's presence he suddenly felt dizzy and was starting to sweat. I don't have the novelization on me but it's been discussed before. In the novelization, it is that bring's on Vader's taunt that: "your powers are weak."- though Vader readily acknowledges in the novel that his skill (seperate from his power) isn't diminished.

He eyes got a bit watery and he blinked. After all, he is no spring chiken. But remember Dooku in AotC and RotS?