SW Wiki Under Attack By TFN Trolls

[Jim Raynor]

I've gotten into a debate with McEwok (Arkady Hodge) at SW Wiki. I didn't think it required its own thread, and I don't think this thread's old enough to qualify as "necromancy," so I'm posting about about it here.

+http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Tal ... readnought

He knows he can no longer defend the term "Super Star Destroyer" as anything but slang. However, he still refuses to admit that the Executor is a Star Dreadnaught, insisting that it's a large Star Destroyer. I'm confident that I can smash his main argument and most of his points. However, there are a few points I'm not sure of, that I would like some help with. I want to give him as complete a smackdown as possible, one with minimal "wiggle room" for him to carry on with.

Then there's the description of the term "Super Star Destroyer" as "Rebel slang". This is demonstrably inaccurate and pejorative. The term is used both in dialogue among Imperial officers (Darksaber, Ch. 20, hardback p. 141) and in narrative sections told from their POVs (HttE, Ch. 1, paperback p. 7). Moreover, we find simple "Star Destroyer" applied to Executor-class ships not only by the Recon-X astromech (SoL, p. 320) but also by Sorannan (TT, p. 312), and implicitly, Thrawn (HttE, p. 51 "other Star Destroyers" is an implied semantic contrast with the earlier reference to Ex in the same dialogue). These are neither Rebels nor are they using slang idioms: this mitigates against the superficially narrow usage implied by the text here, and raises further eyebrows about the accuracy of this section of ItW

A lot of his argument is based on the idea that because "Super Star Destroyer" or "Star Destroyer" is often used when referring to the Executor by Imperial officers then ITW is wrong and must be thrown out. He thinks it should be completely dismissed, instead of using the method that takes the most evidence into account and tries to rationalize everything.

I have an idea for a rebuttal, but I want you guys to tell me if it's good: My rebuttal would be that military officers and other people who should know better DO use slang/inaccurate/misleading terms when referring to ships or vehicles, and that he has no evidence for his claim "nor are they using slang idioms." In real life, there's the F-117 "stealth fighter," "supercarriers," "BUFF" (B-52), "through-deck cruiser," etc. Also, just because SSD is "Rebel slang" doesn't mean that Imperials and other non-Rebels can't use it. The ITW statement could simply have been referring to the origin of the slang term.

The Shield of Lies quote is a little harder to dismiss, since it's a military IFF:

Taggar flew a steady line as he read the reports from R2-R on his cockpit display.
IDENTIFIED: ARAMADIA-CLASS THRUSTSHIP
IDENTIFIED: ARAMADIA-CLASS THRUSTSHIP
IDENTIFIED: VICTORY-CLASS STAR DESTROYER
IDENTIFIED: ARAMADIA-CLASS THRUSTSHIP
IDENTIFIED: IMPERIAL-CLASS STAR DESTROYER
IDENTIFIED: EXECUTOR-CLASS STAR DESTROYER

The list grew longer as N'zoth grew larger ahead.

McEwok (Arkady Hodge) says that IFFs don't use slang (is this correct, or do they ever use informal, but familiar terms?). If they don't, then the only rebuttal that I can think of concerns the Armadia-class thrustships. "Thrustship" doesn't refer to the ship's size or role. According to CUSWE, it's a Yevethan starship that uses thrust propulsion rather than ion drives. Can anyone who has read (or more importantly, owns) the BFC novels tell me if this is an informal or slang term the NR comes up for the unusual Yevethan ships? If it is, then I can point out that this display was using slang terms, and cannot be trusted to give official designations for all the ships it listed.

[VT-16]

In a way he´s right, since all big dagger-shaped warships are labled Star Destroyers (as a general group, that is). However this doesn´t excuse ignoring the OT:ITW (nor the old source where the term originated, God I wish I could remember that and write it up in the 'references'-page).

[VT-16]

EDIT: Ok, now he´s starting to fuck around with my Comm ship entry. He seems to have a real problem with the concept of "warship bigger than the Imperators but smaller than the Executor".

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

He knows he can no longer defend the term "Super Star Destroyer" as anything but slang.

For him, this is progress. Praise him.

I have an idea for a rebuttal, but I want you guys to tell me if it's good: My rebuttal would be that military officers and other people who should know better DO use slang/inaccurate/misleading terms when referring to ships or vehicles, and that he has no evidence for his claim "nor are they using slang idioms." In real life, there's the F-117 "stealth fighter," "supercarriers," "BUFF" (B-52), "through-deck cruiser," etc. Also, just because SSD is "Rebel slang" doesn't mean that Imperials and other non-Rebels can't use it. The ITW statement could simply have been referring to the origin of the slang term.

I think that would work - the Russians sometimes use Flanker for the Su-27 too.

In addition, Sorannan is apparently Army. He's probably not in good touch with the most precise military language.

As for Pellaeon, he also:
1) Thinks the Executor is 8km long (remember, he saw the Executor) (Darksaber)
2) Thinks the Executor can bankrupt the Death Star building Empire (he saw the Death Star too). Let's not forget the Executor was only supposed to cost 20 ISDs according to ISB (one of McEwok's beloved WEG sources).
3) Seems to think the Executor can drain a significant percentage of the better officers in the Navy. Yes, it is an elite unit, but the Imperial Navy is too large for any one ship to put a real crimp on the available officer pool.
4) Thinks that the production of a 20000 clones/week can possibly mean the end of conscription in a galactic scale conflict.

In short, he's a dumbass.

McEwok (Arkady Hodge) says that IFFs don't use slang (is this correct, or do they ever use informal, but familiar terms?). If they don't, then the only rebuttal that I can think of concerns the Armadia-class thrustships. "Thrustship" doesn't refer to the ship's size or role. According to CUSWE, it's a Yevethan starship that uses thrust propulsion rather than ion drives. Can anyone who has read (or more importantly, owns) the BFC novels tell me if this is an informal or slang term the NR comes up for the unusual Yevethan ships? If it is, then I can point out that this display was using slang terms, and cannot be trusted to give official designations for all the ships it listed.

Ask him this: If an American plane does a ID scan on Kuznetsov, is the IFF going to classify it as a CV, or as a Tactical Aviation Cruiser (the latter is of course the technically accurate term).

Then you might explain the low level of professionalism in the Rebel/NR military. Remember, they hadn't even figured out that the Executor is not 8km long by fucking Black Fleet Crisis.
Historically, they think little color block diagrams (of the sort one might show on TV) are proper things to put in AAR reports meant for consumption by senior commanders (RASB, Ch 6)!
I don't even want to get into the AAR they did for the Death Star action (DSTC, Appendix I).

[VT-16]

McEwok´s obsession with calling things Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers is reaching new heights of obsession. Any way I can complain about him and his trolling?

[The Dark]

As stated previously, a real-life analogy would be the Warsaw Pact, who adopted some of the NATO callsigns for WP aircraft (the only one I'm aware of that they haven't done that for is Hokum/Werewolf). Also, if the common useage among the Rebels is "Super Star Destroyer," it would make sense that the droids, who hear fighter slang constantly, would pick up on it and use it in their own communications. Reading the quote, there's no evidence from that excerpt that he's actually reading transponders - the 'droid is identifying vessels and stating what they are.