Those who hold no allegiance to God or Satan

[mr friendly guy]

I remember reading a comic book where it is mentioned that certain souls who hold no allegiance to God or Satan go elsewhere (ie not heaven or hell).

Is this just a work of comic fiction, or is there some biblical passages which make reference to this?

[Lord Zentei]

I remember reading a comic book where it is mentioned that certain souls who hold no allegiance to God or Satan go elsewhere (ie not heaven or hell).

Is this just a work of comic fiction, or is there some biblical passages which make reference to this?

None that I'm aware of in the Bible. However, the Divine Comedy has Limbo (the classical underworld) as the First Circle of Hell and the final resting place of virtuous pagans. There, their needs are cared for and they suffer no want other than the absence of God. Slightly above that is the Vestibule, the "zeroth" circle, as it were (though it doesn't rate as a "full" circle), where those who had alleigance to neither God nor Satan are forced to chase a banner that is blown around on a magical wind endlessly.

[Il Saggiatore]

I thought that God says like "you are either with me or against me", with no middle ground.
So, to hell with the souls that are not with God.

However, in the Christian (or at least Catholic) tradition there is such thing as Limbo for the souls that did not sin, but are excluded from Heaven because unbaptized or never had chance to have contact with Christianity.

Literary example: Virgil in the Divine Comedy died witout sin, except for the original sin; not having had the chance to be saved by Christianity, he is stuck in the Limbo, which is actually part of Hell, and is excluded from the beatific vision of God.

[Darth Wong]

In the Marvel Comics series, believing in a deity will give it power, and dead people seem to go to whatever heaven or hell they believed in before dying. There is a Valhalla and a Hel for the Norsemen, there is Mount Olympus for the Greeks and Romans, and there is Mephisto's Hell for Christians (interestingly enough, there is no Christian Heaven portrayed in Marvel Comics AFAIK).

[Rye]

I remember reading a comic book where it is mentioned that certain souls who hold no allegiance to God or Satan go elsewhere (ie not heaven or hell).

Is this just a work of comic fiction, or is there some biblical passages which make reference to this?

I don't think so. In the OT it's stated that everyone goes to Sheol, the grave, the underworld, but that nobody does anything there, not even think. Ecclesiastes 9:10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.

However, in the NT: John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Ender]

In the Marvel Comics series, believing in a deity will give it power, and dead people seem to go to whatever heaven or hell they believed in before dying. There is a Valhalla and a Hel for the Norsemen, there is Mount Olympus for the Greeks and Romans, and there is Mephisto's Hell for Christians (interestingly enough, there is no Christian Heaven portrayed in Marvel Comics AFAIK).

It appeared in the Fantasitc Four about a year ago. So we've seen it too.

Actually, now that I think about it, that might ahbe been Jewish - Ben is jewish isn't he?

[Ghost Rider]

In the Marvel Comics series, believing in a deity will give it power, and dead people seem to go to whatever heaven or hell they believed in before dying. There is a Valhalla and a Hel for the Norsemen, there is Mount Olympus for the Greeks and Romans, and there is Mephisto's Hell for Christians (interestingly enough, there is no Christian Heaven portrayed in Marvel Comics AFAIK).

It appeared in the Fantasitc Four about a year ago. So we've seen it too.

Actually, now that I think about it, that might ahbe been Jewish - Ben is jewish isn't he?

I believe he is. Would be within Kirby's ideal to make it so.

A funnier bit is that in DCU there is heaven and hell and a whole variety of gods, and simple worship is what gives them power. So much so, that killing the followers kills the being itself...funnily enough apparently all you have to do to get into Paradise is be good, Hell if you're bad ...though the levels of good and bad vary depending on deity you worship...or if athesit which deity grabbed your soul.

[Ender]

In the Marvel Comics series, believing in a deity will give it power, and dead people seem to go to whatever heaven or hell they believed in before dying. There is a Valhalla and a Hel for the Norsemen, there is Mount Olympus for the Greeks and Romans, and there is Mephisto's Hell for Christians (interestingly enough, there is no Christian Heaven portrayed in Marvel Comics AFAIK).

It appeared in the Fantasitc Four about a year ago. So we've seen it too.

Actually, now that I think about it, that might ahbe been Jewish - Ben is jewish isn't he?

I believe he is. Would be within Kirby's ideal to make it so.

Yeah, I just checked, and he is. there was a one issue one that went into it as some kind of tribute to kirby. Ends witht he thug he just beat being suprised Ben is a jew because "you don't look jewish"

[mr friendly guy]

However, in the Christian (or at least Catholic) tradition there is such thing as Limbo for the souls that did not sin, but are excluded from Heaven because unbaptized or never had chance to have contact with Christianity.

Literary example: Virgil in the Divine Comedy died witout sin, except for the original sin; not having had the chance to be saved by Christianity, he is stuck in the Limbo, which is actually part of Hell, and is excluded from the beatific vision of God.

That's it. Limbo was what I was thinking of. Although what is the Divine Comedy exactly.

[Il Saggiatore]

However, in the Christian (or at least Catholic) tradition there is such thing as Limbo for the souls that did not sin, but are excluded from Heaven because unbaptized or never had chance to have contact with Christianity.

Literary example: Virgil in the Divine Comedy died witout sin, except for the original sin; not having had the chance to be saved by Christianity, he is stuck in the Limbo, which is actually part of Hell, and is excluded from the beatific vision of God.

That's it. Limbo was what I was thinking of. Although what is the Divine Comedy exactly.

If you had to pick one work to represent Italian literature, you would choose the Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri.
I found a website about it: www.divinecomedy.org and this from Wikipedia:

Inferno
Circle 1. Limbo - the unbaptized and virtuous pagans, who, though not sinful, did not accept Christ. They are not punished in an active sense, but are merely unable to reach Heaven and denied God's presence for eternity (Canto 4).

[LauraG]

None that I'm aware of in the Bible. However, the Divine Comedy has Limbo (the classical underworld) as the First Circle of Hell and the final resting place of virtuous pagans. There, their needs are cared for and they suffer no want other than the absence of God. Slightly above that is the Vestibule, the "zeroth" circle, as it were (though it doesn't rate as a "full" circle), where those who had alleigance to neither God nor Satan are forced to chase a banner that is blown around on a magical wind endlessly.

That first circle of hell sounds like fun, actually. It also seems like Dante imagined this first circle of hell was a notch above wordly existence in terms of quality of life (of death?). I'm sure he though people were being tested or punished by being sent to Earth.

That's a huge problem with the notion of an afterlife where you get rewarded or punished according to your behavior in life. It takes away from the meaning you give your life while you're living it. How that works out to "free will", I just don't get.

...and in any case, it's a book. A pretty good one, mind you, but completely fictional.

[Pick]

That's part of why I liked Niven and Pournelle's (sorry, I can't spell to save my life) Inferno. The virtuous pagans had it good, and most didn't want to leave. It actually seemed like a pretty decent place to be, especially with the Observatory (again, N&P's version) which apparently allowed you to view anything in the cosmos. Always thought the first circle seemed pretty fun. Good read, by the way. Very good read. Still love the original.

[2000AD]

The Ancient Greeks had some limbo thing. IIRC it was some big misty mountain range or something and you stayed there till you were re-incarnated for antoher go.
If you were nasty you went to Hades and were punished, if you were good you went to the Ellysian (sp) fields (Heaven) and if you were re-incarnated and got to the fields several (5 IIRC) times you got to some special island in there (Heaven-plus).

AFAIK there's no limbo thing in Christianity, it's heaven or hell, no middle ground.

[Lord Zentei]

...and in any case, it's a book. A pretty good one, mind you, but completely fictional.

<gasp!> Lies! The Divine Comedy is no fiction! It is called the Divine Comedy, you know!! [/sarcasm]

Incidentally, on a more serious note, the Divine Comedy also has a third place apart from Heaven and Hell: Mount Purgatory, which is supposed to be on an island in the Great Ocean, directly opposite on the globe of Jerusalem. People who go there were good, but not so good as to go directly to Heaven, they have to have their sins purged from them first with Hellish torture. However, there is the decidedly huge silver lining that their suffering is only temporary (unlike that of the other poor schmucks), after which they ascend.

[Luzifer's right hand]

AFAIK there's no limbo thing in Christianity, it's heaven or hell, no middle ground.

There is the purgatory in in the roman chatholic faith which is hell light in which people expiate for their sins. Everyone in purgatory will enter heaven in the end.
Prayer for the death and alms can shorten the time of a soul in purgatory.
However I think it's only for chatholics.

[LauraG]

...and in any case, it's a book. A pretty good one, mind you, but completely fictional.

<gasp!> Lies! The Divine Comedy is no fiction! It is called the Divine Comedy, you know!! [/sarcasm]

Sorry about that. I just assumed, since there's so many other Divine books out there that are completely fictional, this one would be too.

[Elheru Aran]

AFAIK there's no limbo thing in Christianity, it's heaven or hell, no middle ground.

There is the purgatory in in the roman chatholic faith which is hell light in which people expiate for their sins. Everyone in purgatory will enter heaven in the end.
Prayer for the death and alms can shorten the time of a soul in purgatory.
However I think it's only for chatholics.

I thought purgatory had been mostly discarded since the Reformation?

[Luzifer's right hand]

I thought purgatory had been mostly discarded since the Reformation?

I would not call it mostly discarded when the biggest christian sect with ~1.2 billion members belives in it. Many smaller christians sects don't belive in it though.

I must admit that I read quite a few books chatolic theology over they years and looked at one of the to refresh my memory.

There was a limbo for people which lived good lives before before the resurrection of jesus, they had do wait for jesus to open the gates of heaven for them. This seems accepted by the roman chatolic church.
They are not sure about the limbo for children though, the last pope said himself that the church is not sure about the fate of unbaptized infants.

[mr friendly guy]

According to wikipedia

Circle 1. Limbo - the unbaptized and virtuous pagans, who, though not sinful, did not accept Christ. They are not punished in an active sense, but are merely unable to reach Heaven and denied God's presence for eternity (Canto 4).

How can someone not be sinful according to Christian dogma. Everyone except God is supposed to sinful, at least that was the line the Church of Toronto kept on feeding me when I was in Canada. And even in the Bible God can repent of the evil he was about to do.

[EmperorSolo51]

That's part of why I liked Niven and Pournelle's (sorry, I can't spell to save my life) Inferno. The virtuous pagans had it good, and most didn't want to leave. It actually seemed like a pretty decent place to be, especially with the Observatory (again, N&P's version) which apparently allowed you to view anything in the cosmos. Always thought the first circle seemed pretty fun. Good read, by the way. Very good read. Still love the original.

True, they do no suffer any wants or fears. There is no malice directed towards them because they, in the mind of Dante, acted in a manner that was virtuous. However, As Virgil and dante note in the Inferno, there is a shadow of sadness that is cast about Limbo, in which they do not recieve the love of God because they were born in a time before the Crufixion of Christ.

[Il Saggiatore]

According to wikipedia

Circle 1. Limbo - the unbaptized and virtuous pagans, who, though not sinful, did not accept Christ. They are not punished in an active sense, but are merely unable to reach Heaven and denied God's presence for eternity (Canto 4).

How can someone not be sinful according to Christian dogma. Everyone except God is supposed to sinful, at least that was the line the Church of Toronto kept on feeding me when I was in Canada. And even in the Bible God can repent of the evil he was about to do.

They had no sin, except for the original sin, for which they are actually not directly responsible.
And because of the original sin they cannot go to Heaven, which is why unbaptized babies are stuck in the Limbo as well.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

In short, in Catholic theology, Sin seperates you from God, but you are only punished for Sin which you yourself commit. So the Virtuous Pagans--who committed no sin save to refuse to believe in God--reside in a place where their every desire is met, but they are eternally seperated from God, nothing more.

Of course, being a virtuous pagan is fairly difficult--Stoics, Platonists, and so on, are mostly those who qualify. Saladin was also there.


I should note for the record that the Pagan Emperor of Rome, the Emperor Trajan, is not in Limbo but in Heaven, in the presence of God, because the Sainted Pope Gregory the Great was so struck by his virtuousness that he prayed to and argued with God over letting Trajan into Heaven until God relented and allowed Trajan to ascend to Heaven. No, I'm not making that up, it's an actual part of Catholicism.

[mr friendly guy]

So the limbo isn't Biblical canon, although it is part of Catholicism. So presumably they have another source to base that belief on? So since I hold no allegiance to God or Satan, and I if I was virtuous (by their definition, whatever that is exactly), I would end up in Limbo?

[Surlethe]

So the limbo isn't Biblical canon, although it is part of Catholicism. So presumably they have another source to base that belief on?

Tradition is the Church's claim to all this extra information, which is one of the current deep doctrinal difference between the Catholic Church (tradition is equal to Biblical canon) and the Protestant churches (scriptura sola).