Best/Worse Troops in Sci-Fi

[Uraniun235]

Wankery over "only so many people pass/survive the training" tends to miss a very important question: just how effective is the training, anyway? I'm pretty sure any of us could design some sort of deadly obstacle course, but that doesn't necessarily mean the people that survive it are going to be superior soldiers.

[Uraniun235]

shit, addendum:

I didn't mean to accuse anyone in here of wankery, I meant that authors like to use the "well only so many people even survive!" line without considering the possibility that deadliness does not automatically make for a great program.

[Guardsman Bass]

shit, addendum:

I didn't mean to accuse anyone in here of wankery, I meant that authors like to use the "well only so many people even survive!" line without considering the possibility that deadliness does not automatically make for a great program.

Yeah, I probably should re-phrase that- having gone through Salusa Secundus death camp training, Sardauker are individually fucking tough (though not necessarily effective).

It depends on what Sardauker you are using, too; according to the Dune glossary, whereas in the past 1 Sardauker was a match for 10 Landsraad troops (I have no idea how they would determine this; comparing casualties on both sides of battles, maybe?), by the time of Shaddam, cynicism has eroded their warrior religion, and the number of top officers has exploded.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Best- Stormtroopers, literary Mobile Infantry.

Worst- Aside from everybodies's favourites (the Signers, Klingons and Feds), I would like to nominate the Kzinti, as portrayed in the Man-Kzin war books, particularly One War for Wunderland, in which thousands of Kzinti warriors couldn't even take down a ramshackle fortress defended by people with no experience of fighting armed with police weaponry, and eventually just got board and nuked the place. In this story at least their magnificent tactical ineptitude would make a Klingon blush.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Worst- Aside from everybodies's favourites (the Signers, Klingons and Feds), I would like to nominate the Kzinti, as portrayed in the Man-Kzin war books, particularly One War for Wunderland, in which thousands of Kzinti warriors couldn't even take down a ramshackle fortress defended by people with no experience of fighting armed with police weaponry, and eventually just got board and nuked the place. In this story at least their magnificent tactical ineptitude would make a Klingon blush.

My God...

Why on Earth not? I mean, were they armed, did they have armor, even the faintest type of airforce or vehicles?

I mean...shit that's as bad as the Signers.

[consequences]

Worst- Aside from everybodies's favourites (the Signers, Klingons and Feds), I would like to nominate the Kzinti, as portrayed in the Man-Kzin war books, particularly One War for Wunderland, in which thousands of Kzinti warriors couldn't even take down a ramshackle fortress defended by people with no experience of fighting armed with police weaponry, and eventually just got board and nuked the place. In this story at least their magnificent tactical ineptitude would make a Klingon blush.

My God...

Why on Earth not? I mean, were they armed, did they have armor, even the faintest type of airforce or vehicles?

I mean...shit that's as bad as the Signers.

They have all of that. They don't like to use it, and will always, always, always scream and leap, trying for hand-to-claw combat. After getting killed lots and lots, later Kzin eventually got better, as all of those stupid enough to blindly charge into battle generally failed to breed. To be fair, they are fast and tough enough that they still manage to kill more of the defenders than they lose when they finally get into melee combat.


They are like Klingons, except they are just bad-ass enough to make it work.

[Adrian Laguna]

Kzinti? The same ones the Kzinti lesson is named after?

From Atomic Rocket:

If your spacecraft's exhaust is pumping out a few terrawatts, it might occur to you that your enemy would be real unhappy if you hosed them with your tail flame.

In his Known Space novels, Larry Niven invented The Kzinti Lesson. It states "a reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive." The warlike Kzinti invaded the solar system, figuring that humanity would be a pushover since the pacifist humans of the time had no weapons. Humans showed the Kzin the error of their ways by annihilating Kzinti warships with laser arrays used for solar sails, multi-million degree fusion exhausts, and photon drives that were basically titanic lasers. So keep in mind that the higher the exhaust velocities of the rocket engine, the more damage it will do to anything unfortunate enough to be in the path of the exhaust.

[UCBooties]

Major problem with the Prison Break Theory for Signs. If they were one the run and forced to land here, why have they been signaling their approach for decades. No, it just doesn't work any way I try.

[Sharpshooter]

For best mainstream troops, I go with the Clone Army - they were highly trained, dilligent, and were equipped for warfare in a variety of conditions, be it land, sea, air, or space. They also had the nessecary divisions which would be needed for special operations, and could maneuver them in such a manner as to break down the enemy's defenses, then overwhelm their command centers and bring an end to the battle.

For specialized groups, though, I'd nominate the Old School X-Com forces from the original Alien Invasion and Enemy Unknown. While they were small in number and were outmatched by superior firepower, they were able to conduct what amounted to a small-scale war while keeping the earth's populace relatively in the dark and un-panicked, and were able to utalize (if at a rate a bit too wankish, anyway) the enemy's own technology against them, beating them off the earth and then striking them in a one-shot operation on their own turf. The later versions of the group I'm not so hot for - the Terror from the Deep idiots never thought of utilizing the technology they'd obtained during the previous war (and according to an official short story, a few un-documented articles of technology were stashed away for just that purpose) and the X-Com of Apocalypse and that other game were really nothing more than a glorified police force of sorts, albeit with more gadgets.

And if I ever get around to doing the X-Com fics I've got floating around in my head, they'll do even better.

[consequences]

Kzinti? The same ones the Kzinti lesson is named after?

From Atomic Rocket:

If your spacecraft's exhaust is pumping out a few terrawatts, it might occur to you that your enemy would be real unhappy if you hosed them with your tail flame.

In his Known Space novels, Larry Niven invented The Kzinti Lesson. It states "a reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive." The warlike Kzinti invaded the solar system, figuring that humanity would be a pushover since the pacifist humans of the time had no weapons. Humans showed the Kzin the error of their ways by annihilating Kzinti warships with laser arrays used for solar sails, multi-million degree fusion exhausts, and photon drives that were basically titanic lasers. So keep in mind that the higher the exhaust velocities of the rocket engine, the more damage it will do to anything unfortunate enough to be in the path of the exhaust.

Yup, those Kzinti. Thier intelligence issues are complicated by the fact that they stole all of their advanced tech off of others, who stupidly let them rise up and kill them all, so they have historical precedent for believeing that the universe is going to hand them victory if they just be themselves.

Even the concept of fighting another human was considered a highly insane act by the time the Kzin showed up. They had considerable reason to believe that we were a bunch of helpless pacifist babies at that point.

[Siege]

The theory I made up about the Signs aliens to prevent my mind from melting down was that they weren't much more than the pets of the aliens, not the invaders themselves. Perhaps they were little more than something there to provide a laugh for the actual aliens as they sit back and watch the humans freak out. Or, at best, lobotomized criminals dropped on Earth in a form of gladiatorial fun- watch the criminals die from acid rain and the humans freak out as they do so. Weirdo alien entertainment. Or something.

[Bounty]

Would you happen to be talking about these Kzinti ?

[Thirdfain]

Those characters were stolen hands and feet from Niven's book.

[consequences]

Would you happen to be talking about these Kzinti ?

Nope, the people they were originally modified from for ST:TAS, created by Larry Niven. The basic principle and society is the same, but the circumstances are vastly different(in the original Known Space timeline, they didn't atack Earth until well into the 22nd century at the earliest, using only slower than light ships).

[consequences]

Those characters were stolen hands and feet from Niven's book.

Used with permission I believe. Especially as the episode was written by Niven.

[Spiritbw]

I hope that is true because there is enough details in the link there for it to have been plucked wholesale form the Man-Kzin war books. They talk not only of the Kzinti but also of the slavers, thier rather polymorphic weapons and the rather prized(in the books anyhow) stasis boxes.

[Anomie]

Worst- Aside from everybodies's favourites (the Signers, Klingons and Feds), I would like to nominate the Kzinti, as portrayed in the Man-Kzin war books, particularly One War for Wunderland, in which thousands of Kzinti warriors couldn't even take down a ramshackle fortress defended by people with no experience of fighting armed with police weaponry, and eventually just got board and nuked the place. In this story at least their magnificent tactical ineptitude would make a Klingon blush.

Never thought about them. I've only read the Ringworld series, Pak, and Crashlander. Never got around to reading the Man-Kzin war series. But from what was written about them in the Ringworld series, yeah they do kinda suck.

I liked the part in The Ringworld Engineers, when Louis Wu is on the Kzinti homeworld as a guest of the patriarch, and in the Kzint hunting grounds when a Kzin father and son come upon him and the Kizn father warns the son away from the human.

I didn't think to nominate them during my last post, but a good force for worst soldiers would be the Doom novel aliens. There genetically engineered soldiers for the purpose of world conquest, but spend alot of their time fighting one another, and had about half their inital invasion force wiped out by TWO marines. And after they had invaded and taken out most of the standing military forces of the world, in America they were unable to take over a single town controlled by a bunch of Mormans.

Yeah, they kinda suck as well.

[Bounty]

If *all* sci-fi counts - and not just the serious stuff - I'd like to nominate the Democractic Order Of Planets. Why ?

Their highest decorated officer is Zap "I find the most erotic part of a women's body is the boobies" Brannigan

I rest my case.

[Adrian Laguna]

Especially when you consider that Captain Branagan gave all of the Earth's fucking defense codes to a poorly disguised alien, therefore allowing them to conquer the planet. Of course, the aliens in question were not considerably smarter, and got their asses kicked by a 20th Century heat-seeking missle.

[UCBooties]

If *all* sci-fi counts - and not just the serious stuff - I'd like to nominate the Democractic Order Of Planets. Why ?

Their highest decorated officer is Zap "I find the most erotic part of a women's body is the boobies" Brannigan

I rest my case.

"Kif, come hold the flag up behind me, and for God's sake, wave it a little."

God that man had great lines.

Besides, you can't say the Kzinti from ST:TAS were stolen when Niven wrote the episode.

As to the actual best worst argument, I know there has been a great deal of discussion about how the Empire and various forces would fare against the IOM, but has there been discussion yet as to how they would stack up against other 40k factions. I'm specificaly wondering about the forces of Chaos here.

[Adrian Laguna]

Especially when you consider that Captain Branagan gave all of the Earth's fucking defense codes to a poorly disguised alien, therefore allowing them to conquer the planet. Of course, the aliens in question were not considerably smarter, and got their asses kicked by a 20th Century heat-seeking missle.

[jamesraykenney]

<snip>

There is just no conceivable reason those pantsless bastards would show up and start shit. If you have one, I'd love to hear it.

There is one explanation that 'sort of' makes sense...
The were not 'aliens' at all, but demons...
It actually works on a lot of levels if you think about it very much...

[Xon]

Besides, you can't say the Kzinti from ST:TAS were stolen when Niven wrote the episode.

Niven wrote that episode.

[Xon]

Stargate Jaffa are basicly royal guards/police. Using them as anything else just shows they were never ever ment to actually acomplish something with thier fighting.

[speaker-to-trolls]

Stargate Jaffa are basicly royal guards/police. Using them as anything else just shows they were never ever ment to actually acomplish something with thier fighting.

I thought the Goa'uld used them as actual troops when they fought each other. I never understood that, since if they really wanted to defeat each other then you'd think the pressures of warfare would force them to create better weapons or tactics, and it's not as if their wars are not serious, since they regularly kill one another and conquer one another's territory.