The Joiner King (spoliers possible)

[Lord Poe]

I loathe that shit. It smacks of fanboyism. GL's Jedi and Luke Skywalker would never toss lightning, but teh UBER Jedi get to use both sides for TEH ULTIMATE POWER without suffering any of the consequences.

Fuck that shit.

Absolutely agree. I HATE the "New Jedi Order." I actually SKIP a few pages that are Jacen/Jania/Tahiri heavy. What the fuck has happened to Luke since the Thrawn duology? He has absolutely NO character whatsoever. He sits there, the complete embodiment of uber-contentedness, all the time. I'm still slogging through the book. When Luke threw his goggles across the room in frustration over Artoo blocking him from a certain portion of his memory, I was actually overjoyed! Holy shit! Luke is showing an emotion!

Its too bad I'm not enjoying this book more. Troy Denning is one of my favorite authors. He's actually got Han Solo down great in the book.

[Guardsman Bass]

I loathe that shit. It smacks of fanboyism. GL's Jedi and Luke Skywalker would never toss lightning, but teh UBER Jedi get to use both sides for TEH ULTIMATE POWER without suffering any of the consequences.

Fuck that shit.

It's pathetically stupid on the NJO's part. Since now they use (and probably train) their new Jedi to use both sides, including the Dark side, traditionally used for domination, they are basically asking for Dark Jedi which they will have to clean up. All it takes is for one of Luke's trainees to have less than selfless devotion to the galaxy, and you have a Dark Jedi.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

they are basically asking for Dark Jedi which they will have to clean up.

Shit, the NJO authors probably planned for that, since it will make their and others' future jobs easier since they don't need to waste time with motive or development: just make an instant dark Jedi cake and bake for 15 minutes at 375...

[Drooling Iguana]

He also dismisses Omas's concern by simply saying, "I am a jedi. Trust that my reasons are sound," and openly says that they can't trust their power to any 'lesser beings,' and should be loyal to no one. That viewpoint is kind of scary in a Jedi ( as the Sith show, force-users can use their abilities to obtain serious political power), since it basically amounts to saying, "We're going to do what WE feel is right, using the powers YOU have no possible manner of contemplation of. Trust us. We're good."

Did he then try to form a "coalition of the willing"?

[Guardsman Bass]

He also dismisses Omas's concern by simply saying, "I am a jedi. Trust that my reasons are sound," and openly says that they can't trust their power to any 'lesser beings,' and should be loyal to no one. That viewpoint is kind of scary in a Jedi ( as the Sith show, force-users can use their abilities to obtain serious political power), since it basically amounts to saying, "We're going to do what WE feel is right, using the powers YOU have no possible manner of contemplation of. Trust us. We're good."

Did he then try to form a "coalition of the willing"?

He's smarter, or just inflexible; he played the "aloof Jacen," and let Kyp Durron act as his avatar for the "Let Jedi follow their consciences, no matter how much it fucks up galactic order" policy of his.

[FTeik]

Wasn't this "you can use light and dark side to achive balance" something Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus believed in?

I thought i read something like this in one of Publius essays.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Wasn't this "you can use light and dark side to achive balance" something Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus believed in?

I thought i read something like this in one of Publius essays.

According to the rpg at least yes, he believed that someone with an iron will could walk the razor line between both sides of the force.

(Not in the rpg) However Palpatine probably didnt want him to remain too "jedi like" and made sure that he became ensnared with the dark side so that by the midst of the clone wars (Dark journey) he's using the dark side exclusively and only wants to be a powerful sith lord, not what Jacen or Vergere became.

[Darth Fanboy]

Nitpick at Above post:

Dark Journey was an NJO Novel, Dark Rendezvous was the Clone Wars Novel

[Guardsman Bass]

Wasn't this "you can use light and dark side to achive balance" something Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus believed in?

I thought i read something like this in one of Publius essays.

According to the rpg at least yes, he believed that someone with an iron will could walk the razor line between both sides of the force.

(Not in the rpg) However Palpatine probably didnt want him to remain too "jedi like" and made sure that he became ensnared with the dark side so that by the midst of the clone wars (Dark journey) he's using the dark side exclusively and only wants to be a powerful sith lord, not what Jacen or Vergere became.

It's certainly the case by the RoTS novel; in the character description of Dooku, and in his thoughts going into battle, he has nothing but contempt for the Jedi Ways, and their use of the force.

[Ender]

It's almost Sith-like, but that is not surprising, since the New Order embraces both dark and light sides, and uses both

No almost about it. Compare their statemetns with those made by Darth Tyrannus in Labrynth of Evil - the ends justify the means, if the darks side is ascendent they should serve it because their duty is to the force overall, etc.

Definately dark side mindset.

[Guardsman Bass]

It's almost Sith-like, but that is not surprising, since the New Order embraces both dark and light sides, and uses both

No almost about it. Compare their statemetns with those made by Darth Tyrannus in Labrynth of Evil - the ends justify the means, if the darks side is ascendent they should serve it because their duty is to the force overall, etc.

Definately dark side mindset.

Which, in my opinion is going to lead many into corruption, because although both sides of the force may be equally powerful, on the Dark side, it is easier to get powerful, and for force-users, if Shatterpoint is any indication, the Dark side may actually be the more natural of the two sides, since it relies on base drives like anger, desire, and fear. Like I said earlier, in the new morally relativistic Jedi, all they have holding them from turning power-corrupt is their loyalty to the goal of serving their consciences (not the galaxy).

[Darth Fanboy]

Thats a good point about the Dark Side being more natural, I mean if the Jedi are training the majority of their members from infancy it means they have to catch them early and train away all of those base instincts/desires eh?

[Guardsman Bass]

Thats a good point about the Dark Side being more natural, I mean if the Jedi are training the majority of their members from infancy it means they have to catch them early and train away all of those base instincts/desires eh?

That's exactly what they do; get them from forming any family-like connections to anyone or anything but the order, and have them trained in the Light Side and surrounded by no one but their fellow trainees and older comrades in the Temple until they are at least 13, and much of their mind and personality has been shaped.

Obviously, it's not entirely successful; the Halcyon Jedi line has apparently had families so frequently that they are actually known in the Jedi lore as a family line of Jedi (according to I, Jedi). Still, for the most part, it proves highly effective in keeping the Order together, and members from going to the dark side. The "Lost Twenty" mentioned in the RoTS novelization (the only twenty fully trained Jedi Knights and Masters to officially withdraw from the Order in the order's history) are an indication of that, although possibly a false indication, since I doubt Exar Kun, for example, chose to withdraw from the Order before his fall.

[Axis Kast]

I have to agree that I think it's tremendously out-of-character for the Jedi to begin compromising their imperative to do good at all costs and remain even-handed in all things by harnessing emotions such as anger.

I also dislike Jacen especially for his ridiculous moralizing about whether or not to kill in order to save his own people.

It is cool, however, to see the Chiss again, even if I do have to slog through B.S. about kamikazee space shuttles.

[FTeik]

Obviously, it's not entirely successful; the Halcyon Jedi line has apparently had families so frequently that they are actually known in the Jedi lore as a family line of Jedi (according to I, Jedi). Still, for the most part, it proves highly effective in keeping the Order together, and members from going to the dark side. The "Lost Twenty" mentioned in the RoTS novelization (the only twenty fully trained Jedi Knights and Masters to officially withdraw from the Order in the order's history) are an indication of that, although possibly a false indication, since I doubt Exar Kun, for example, chose to withdraw from the Order before his fall.

Halcyon Jedi-line? Didn't Neeja Halcyon - like Anakin - marry his wife in secrecy?

[Guardsman Bass]

Obviously, it's not entirely successful; the Halcyon Jedi line has apparently had families so frequently that they are actually known in the Jedi lore as a family line of Jedi (according to I, Jedi). Still, for the most part, it proves highly effective in keeping the Order together, and members from going to the dark side. The "Lost Twenty" mentioned in the RoTS novelization (the only twenty fully trained Jedi Knights and Masters to officially withdraw from the Order in the order's history) are an indication of that, although possibly a false indication, since I doubt Exar Kun, for example, chose to withdraw from the Order before his fall.

Halcyon Jedi-line? Didn't Neeja Halcyon - like Anakin - marry his wife in secrecy?

Probably- but according to the Jedi Holocron in I, Jedi, Jedi from the Halcyon line have become notorious for their lack of telekinetic power; meaning that there have been enough Halcyons throughout the Jedi order that they could be considered a Jedi dynasty, of sorts.

[Darth Yoshi]

Corellian Jedi were also apparently notorious for disobeying some of the Jedi doctrine.

[Guardsman Bass]

Corellian Jedi were also apparently notorious for disobeying some of the Jedi doctrine.

And staying in the Corellian system, for the most part, which may be how they get away with violations of Order Doctrine; they simply choose not to go back to Coruscant to answer any charges from their fellow masters.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, I suppose it's possible, assuming Ewok heads are big enough to hold a sufficiently sized brain. Which not having seen ROTJ recently I'm not really sure.

They're engineering skill seems comparable to at least Bronze Age man, at least judging by the type and implimentation of their war machines and traps, as well as their fairly advanced language, social structure, and oral tradition.

I don't think anybody cares about their intelligence or anything like that.
I think this is rather clearly a case of them being sodding ewoks, alot of people never liked the Ewoks and reintroducing such lameness into the SW-EU just sucks balls.

[His Divine Shadow]

That's stupid. There's no reason to revisit some throwaway line like that. Twelve million inhabited planets, people. Give me something really new. Christ.

I think the total number is more like 50 million.

[His Divine Shadow]

After having read this thread and the descriptions of what the people are saying I think it's clear that the Jedi are becoming corrupt and Jacen's "walking both sides" philosophy isn't really working, this is probably going to become a big point in the series, possibly the jedi will become evil.

[Guardsman Bass]

After having read this thread and the descriptions of what the people are saying I think it's clear that the Jedi are becoming corrupt and Jacen's "walking both sides" philosophy isn't really working, this is probably going to become a big point in the series, possibly the jedi will become evil.

I don't think they will necessarily become evil; but we can probably expect numerous conflicts between the Order and the Galactic Alliance due to the Order's willingness to use their entire power in whatever way they choose, no matter the disruptiveness of it.