Would you abort a Down's Syndrome child?

[Cairber]

No, I would not abort; it would be a scarey situation, but I know parents with DS babies and with their help and my husband and family, I know we could do it.

[wolveraptor]

So how would you people feel if you aborted a child who was falsley diagnosed with Downs syndrome? What if after you aborted you found out that the doctor or hospital made a mistake?

Just curious, I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'm not even sure if this can happen.

I would not be seeing that doctor again, but I don't think I could find rational grounds to sue upon. No harm came to me or any human, emotional or physical, as a result of his/her misdiagnosis. Of course, I'm not to familiar with the laws concerning malpractice, but I probably still wouldn't sue. Unless, of course, I wanted a child, and had made the decision to abort purely off of the doctor's word that it was a Down's syndrome child. Then I might have some basis to push a lawsuit. Again, I'm not familiar with legislation concerning this.

Dakarne: Why do you have a problem with the abortion of a healthy fetus in the first trimester? Furthermore, I notice your response to the question "Would you abort an Autistic child?" was decidedly emotional. Just because you are slightly autistic, doesn't mean you should be opposed to all autism-related abortions.

[consequences]

Kaz needs to get out of my head. Abort, without hesitation or regret.

I would be tempted to attempt to force the issue for an abortion in this case, although I think my fiancee would be off the same mind in this case. If it came down to it, I don't think I'd actually be able to bring myself to make her get an abortion, because I don'tknow what the hell I'd do with myself after she left, but the basic inclination would be there,and I'd probably poison the relationship by attempting to reason her into it.

Ditto on the atheist with reincarnation beliefs, which is kind of spooky(although I tend more towards Agnostic some days, when I start contemplating weird shit and low order probabilities).

For me, part of its the fact that I know I'd be barely capable as a parent for a normal child at best. So yeah, there's an element of selfishness in there.


If I found out that the doc had screwed up, I'd be doing jail time of some form or another. I have a great deal of control and practice dealing with anger and my urges to hurt people who have wronged me. My control ain't that good.

[wolveraptor]

Explain to me how the doctor would have wronged you? Would you have broken a limb arguing with your fiancee about it?

[consequences]

Explain to me how the doctor would have wronged you? Would you have broken a limb arguing with your fiancee about it?

Psychological trauma to my fiancee, who would definitely not want to abort a healthy child. Neither would I particularly at this juncture(if we suddenly lose our jobs and home, then that decison point changes). Possible destruction of my relationship from the fallout.

On the logically unjustifiable side, the belief on my part that someone who fucks up that way has no right to continue medical practice, or have further use of his kneecaps. Since I would have no child in this scenario, and my relationship would probably be shot leaving me wth very little will to live, I'd have no issue with the jail time that would result.

[Pick]

If I found out later that they were misdiagnosed (how would I, though?), that would be a bummer, but it wouldn't be the end of the world, either. I'd change doctors though; a diagnosis of that level ought to be accurate enough to judge whether or not there's an extra bloody chromosome.

And certainly the small chance it was a misdiagnosis wouldn't be enough to make me want to carry it to term considering how much I wouldn't want to have a Down's Syndrome child.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Kaz needs to get out of my head. Abort, without hesitation or regret.

Yes, we obviously have similar thought patterns - we had similar viewpoints on a few other things too...

Ditto on the atheist with reincarnation beliefs, which is kind of spooky(although I tend more towards Agnostic some days, when I start contemplating weird shit and low order probabilities).

Just to clarify this, I don't really believe in reincarnation. Just that I think it is a neat idea and decided to spend a bit of time thinking about the ramfications for this if it really did exist. Kinda like how people like the idea of Santa Claus but don't really think he exists.

That's a fair question. To be honest, I suspect that many of the "child's welfare" arguments are a bit of a self-serving smokescreen for the more selfish motive of not wanting to be chained for the rest of your life into the role of caregiver for a somewhat disabled person.

I won't bother denying that. I think either way, a selfish motivation is involved in your calculation.

Are you sure you intended to call humans with Down Syndrome a failure?

YES. I am cruel, perhaps. But society also calls them failures. To society, if you cannot be independent within a particular time norm, you are a failure. There are many in society that have more suitable qualities for success than the average Down Syndrome and still fail. So perhaps what's cruel is reality.

And is that justification for preventing them to live?
Isn't this dangerously close to dividing humans into categories labeled "worth living" and "not worth living"?

Perhaps it is, but they are candidates for being human (itself a task made of countless subtasks). We disqualify people who are not likely to succeed at certain tasks all the time in society. A candidate with Down Syndrome is unlikely to succeed. Forcing him into society is not only non-productive, but arguably cruel to him as well. So, disqualify him early. It is arguably a mercy.

[Darth Wong]

BTW, all of the guys who answered "I would support whatever my wife" decides, what the fuck kind of answer is that? The question is what you would do. Surely you would have an opinion one way or another.

[SirNitram]

While I wouldn't force it on my wife, I would argue for aborting it.

I realize some will view 'The kid will not have a good life' as a cop-out or an excuse. But I've lived my life with the definition of mild retardation, something so minor that you need to know me very well to notice it. And it makes life pretty hard. I sure as hell wouldn't want my kid going through worse.

[Ender]

I want to say no. I'd like to believe I'd be strong enough to be able to handle the difficulties of raising a disabled child, that I could deal with anything and love them everybit as much as I would a healthy child. But I'm not sure I honestly could.

[Master of Ossus]

How can you misdiagnose Down's Syndrome? All you have to do is look at one of the cells and count the number of chromosomes. If it's not right, then there's a serious problem (be it trisomere-21 or another of the chromosomal defects). Seriously, anyone who can count to 50 can tell if there's a problem like Down's Syndrome in a placenta, and it doesn't take much training to be able to diagnose it much more accurately.

[Thirdfain]

My folks went to college with a couple who eventually gave birth to a child with cerebral paulsey. My dad often talks about how happy and driven his old roommate was. Now, his life and the life of his wife are devoted to taking care of a 22 year odl who still touches himself in public. I've never seen more poignant evidence for the nonexistance of God. I'd press for abortion. Better a sudden death than decades of horrific crippling.

[Son of the Suns]

How can you misdiagnose Down's Syndrome? All you have to do is look at one of the cells and count the number of chromosomes. If it's not right, then there's a serious problem (be it trisomere-21 or another of the chromosomal defects). Seriously, anyone who can count to 50 can tell if there's a problem like Down's Syndrome in a placenta, and it doesn't take much training to be able to diagnose it much more accurately.

It happens, I had a baby sister who was diagnosed as normal and ended up with Down's Syndrome, she died serveral months after being born after heart surgery. My youngest brother was diagnosed with Down's Syndrome and both the doctor and the nurses urged my mother to abort. It got to the point that they were waiting for my father to leave the room so they could gang up on her and try to convince her to abort. She didn't, and now my prefectly healthy, above average intelligence 14 year old brother is about to start high school.

[His Divine Shadow]

So how would you people feel if you aborted a child who was falsley diagnosed with Downs syndrome? What if after you aborted you found out that the doctor or hospital made a mistake?

Just curious, I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'm not even sure if this can happen.

Bad I guess, it's not like it's a postive thing if you wanted a child. But I would do the same thing again, the choice was correct based on the information that was available IMO.

[His Divine Shadow]

Psychological trauma to my fiancee, who would definitely not want to abort a healthy child. Neither would I particularly at this juncture(if we suddenly lose our jobs and home, then that decison point changes). Possible destruction of my relationship from the fallout.

On the logically unjustifiable side, the belief on my part that someone who fucks up that way has no right to continue medical practice, or have further use of his kneecaps. Since I would have no child in this scenario, and my relationship would probably be shot leaving me wth very little will to live, I'd have no issue with the jail time that would result.

We'll just put you up on this here "refuse treatment and/or admission" list then. *scribbles name down*

[Dakarne]

Dakarne: Why do you have a problem with the abortion of a healthy fetus in the first trimester? Furthermore, I notice your response to the question "Would you abort an Autistic child?" was decidedly emotional. Just because you are slightly autistic, doesn't mean you should be opposed to all autism-related abortions.

About the abortion itself: I just wouldn't have my own child aborted... if my wife gets pregnant, that was actually our own fault for not using the adequate protection. I do not have a problem with other people getting an abortion, it's just something I personally wouldn't do.

The point with the autism-related Abortions is, personally, that it's hard to tell with a fetus whether or not it's going to have a serious form, or it isn't, science tends to be a bit sketchy when it first starts out.

[Hillary]

Abort without question. Having kids takes up enough of your life as it is. A DS one would be all consuming and I don't have what it takes.

I very much doubt my wife would disagree with me, but if she wanted to keep it, I'd argue as hard as I could against it.

This has nothing to do with how fair or not it would be for the child, purely my own selfishness. I can't understand why anyone would say no in this situation. Who exactly is benefitting from having a child with DS? The child is retarded, the parents lives are taken over and the welfare state has another burden.

[Surlethe]

I would not abort the child, because, quite simply, I am morally opposed to abortion.

[astrosanguinus]

Simple question. Please note:

1) Do not tell me whether you think abortion should be legal or not. This is all about what you would do if you and your spouse found out that your child was going to have Down's Syndrome, assuming that abortion is legal. It is entirely possible for someone who supports abortion rights to have a problem with the idea of aborting his or her own offspring.

2) The fetus is in the first trimester at this point.

I know you asked not to state whether I am for or against, but there is a lot tied up with the answer, so here goes:

The first part is what kills me: the fundies have stolen the language. That is, by calling themselves right-to-lifers, they make it clear that anyone who suports abortion actually favors death. Well, I've had to stick by someone who had to make this awful choice, and though they did it, it wasn't because they favored it. They really needed a lot of strength and support. Now imagine if regular women are deprived of this control of their own bodies. It's disgusting. Furthermore, I have moved on in life and had a child, and when a woman is pregnant, Down's is a huge issue. For my wife at least, and I am not saying she's a representative sample but I feel she is a normal, well-adjusted adult, simply getting the tests and worrying abt it was traumatic. She decided that abortion would be the best thing if the test came back positive. When it came back clear, she just broke down in tears of happiness. It was that big a deal. So, you see, neither of the women I have gotten pregnant (they work, w007!) actually FAVOR abortion. But it is a necessary option. For some of you (I think) this matter is academic. It's easy to debate things that are only academic. For nstance, Kaz, are you crazy? I'm not new here. I saw you when you first joined--wasn't it ASVS? I did not say this. I was never here... aren't you in your early 20's and single? Wait, I just broke a rule and asked a question I don't know the answer to. But even if I'm wrong, dot dot dot, you're not going to override anyone about that! And also furthermore, Mrs Kendall, i'ts impossible to misdiagnose Down's. If the parent went in with a positive on the blood test, then yes, bec that's just a screening test to see if you need an amniocentesis. In amnio, they draw the fetus's blood, so it's 100%

[Cairber]

Amnio is not performed until 15 weeks. The question specifically stated that the child was first trimester, so the only test we have available to us is the blood one that doctors told me when i was pregnant (quote) "This test has both false positives and false negatives".

[Master of Ossus]

Amnio is not performed until 15 weeks. The question specifically stated that the child was first trimester, so the only test we have available to us is the blood one that doctors told me when i was pregnant (quote) "This test has both false positives and false negatives".

Virtually any medical test will have a tiny fraction of false negatives, and a positive test basically tells you that you need to take another test for a more accurate diagnosis. This is basic statistics.

[Cairber]

I think (tho I dont have the exact numbers) this test has a larger than normal percentage of false negatives and positives. One doctor told me that if I am one that tends to worry, I may want to skip it all together because of the worry it causes mothers "for no real reason." I mean, they give you an HIV test, andt hey dont tell you about false positive/neg, they do gestational diabetes and a whole array of tests all without telling you about false pos and negs. When they come to this one, they point it out. Most of the parents in our group chose not to have it because of its less than stellar reputation.

[The Kernel]

All of this talk of potential false results is largely irrelevent in my mind. At that point the fetus is not developed enough to be called human and it's not like conceiving another child would be a terrible burden. Better to err on the side of caution, I would not want to take the chance of giving birth to a child with Down Syndrome; I've been around enough kids with DS to know that I couldn't possible provide any sort of happy existance for him/her, and that it would be the better option for the family to abort it.

It may sound callous, but I don't see why anyone would really think twice about aborting a fetus that has been diagnosed with DS. Who in their right mind would want a child with such a debilitating condition? I would definitely abort the fetus, and I know very well that my wife would agree with me on this.

[The Original Nex]

Speaking with the biased opinion of having a brother with Downs Syndrome, I would say no. Absolutely not.

[Son of the Suns]

And also furthermore, Mrs Kendall, i'ts impossible to misdiagnose Down's. If the parent went in with a positive on the blood test, then yes, bec that's just a screening test to see if you need an amniocentesis. In amnio, they draw the fetus's blood, so it's 100%

Yes it is, it happened to my mother, twice. Also, the original post stated that the infant is in the first trimester, before the test can be performed.