Dealing with potential pedophiles

[kheegster]

The fact that incidents of pedophilia are so widespread indicates that apart from the actual offenders, there must be a significant population who are sexually inclined towards pedophilia, but have not commited any offense as yet, or alternatively realise that pedophilia is wrong and avoid acting on their urges.

I vaguely recall a news article from a couple of years ago about a man who wrote to an agony aunt about his attraction towards his girlfriend's young daughters. The agony aunt turned him in to the authorities, but I don't remember what his eventual fate was.

If it can be shown that a person has pedophilic tendencies, what can be done to him? On one hand he has not committed any crime, and the other hand there's the need to protect society from a potential pedophile.

Also, merely being associated with pedophilia can potentially ruin a person's life and career, which would dissuade potential pedophiles from seeking help.

So, what can/should society do to deal with this (presumably sizeable) of potential pedophiles?

[Stark]

What sort of condition is pedophilia? I'm assuming it's a learnt thing, like being a rapist: isn't the best countermeasure to establish what sort of things increase the chances of someone becoming a pedophile?

It's an interesting question, actually: I find most people don't want to talk about why someone manifests behaviour like this, and just want to punish them and forget about it. It's like child abuse: fully 30% of the girls I know have been subjected to some form of abuse (drug and sex abuse, usually their parents), but everyone treats it like it's a tiny proportion of the population who do these things and it's not really a problem for anyone but the victims.

[Alyeska]

The jury is still out as to whether or not nature or nurture are primary causes. However, its generaly agreed that a combination of the two are what creates peophiles. Children who have been preyed upon are more likely to become pedophiles. Certain enviromental and biological conditions combined with how one was raised ultimately indicate what creates a pedophile.

The big question is how does one turn off the section of the brain that creates pedophilia. Its been documented, but turning it off is going to be nigh impossible. Once someone is shown to have pedophiliac tendancies, they are a threat, but if they've comitted no crimes its not really just to hold them either.

[Alyeska]

What sort of condition is pedophilia? I'm assuming it's a learnt thing, like being a rapist: isn't the best countermeasure to establish what sort of things increase the chances of someone becoming a pedophile?

It's an interesting question, actually: I find most people don't want to talk about why someone manifests behaviour like this, and just want to punish them and forget about it. It's like child abuse: fully 30% of the girls I know have been subjected to some form of abuse (drug and sex abuse, usually their parents), but everyone treats it like it's a tiny proportion of the population who do these things and it's not really a problem for anyone but the victims.

Pedophilia is not quite the same as rape. Pedopiliacs have the highest rates of recomitting crimes after having gone through the prison system and rehabilititation programs. Both enviromental and biological factors have been identified with various pedophiles.

[Stark]

Alyeska, you said the part of the brain that causes pedophilia has been established: could you go into more detail?

[Broomstick]

If it can be shown that a person has pedophilic tendencies, what can be done to him? On one hand he has not committed any crime, and the other hand there's the need to protect society from a potential pedophile.

I disagree - we don't need protection against potential pedophiles who have committed no crime, we need protection against actual pedophiles.

It's almost like saying we should lock up anyone who has ever fantacized about committing murder.

If no crime has been committed then there should be no punishment.

I have no doubt there are men who have impulses they know are wrong - pedophila, rape, murder, theft, whatever - and manage to suppress/restrain themselves their entire lives against committing these offenses. That's called "normal".

Some folks may need to impose unusual measures on themselves - I've heard of one or two instances of men who never married and who took pains never to be alone around young children of their relatives, yet never harmed anyone. You know what? Good for them - they've prevented a problem and a crime. Leave them the fuck alone as long as they don't cause trouble. It's probably more common than we know.

I also know of an instance where a man molested his daughter, was caught, and since then has taken pains never to be alone with an underage girl - and he tells people why, and that it's because he never wants to committ such a horror again. He's stayed out of trouble since then (it's been over 20 years) and even though I harbor deep and abiding rage against this man who hurt someone I care about very, very deeply, scarred her for life, I still wouldn't want to fuck with his situation. He's made what amends he can, because he has a job my tax money isn't supporting his evil ass, and like I said, he's stayed out of trouble since. I don't doubt he has Evil Thoughts to this day, but he's figured out how not to act on them. As long as he behaves he can walk about under the bright blue sky (but not near schools, playgrounds, etc.)

Until we have an effective treatment - and at this point we don't - all we can do it isolate those who can't control themselves from the rest of society. If someone IS capable of suppressing their evil impulses (either through better self-control or through less intense impulses than some other folks, whatever) then they should not have their freedom taken away.

[Hillary]

I vaguely recall a news article from a couple of years ago about a man who wrote to an agony aunt about his attraction towards his girlfriend's young daughters. The agony aunt turned him in to the authorities, but I don't remember what his eventual fate was.

That's quite an appalling way for an agony aunt to behave. Someone asks for help and instead of doing so, he is shopped to police despite having done nothing wrong. No doubt social services went in, the guy's relationship was irretrievably damaged, the girls' mother traumatised and the girls themselves frightened. Nice.

Another of my bugbears here is that you can bet your life the agony aunt wouldn't have done that if the person who wrote the letter was a women 'being attracted' towards her boyfriend's young sons.

[The Guid]

I think we need a decent confidential service for Paedophiles so that they can try and get counselling or whatever might help them with their condition. Granted, once somebody has committed a crime or attempted to commit a crime then they have to endure some form of punishment but I am of the opinion that they get too hard a time in the current society. I am of the belief that nobody chooses to be a paedophile, granted the choice to commit horrific acts is there and anyone who actually harms a child I believe should have a strong sentence but those who commit crimes that do not actually affect their victims I believe should be treated more generously both by the justice system and certainly by the media.

[Anomie]

Freud is noted as having said that the only unnatural sex is no sex, and everything else is just prefrence and opportunity.

Still, this doesn't excuse people from such acts.

From what I've learned in Psych and Sociolgy classes, most forms of sexual deviance are considered to be biological in function. Pedophila, bestiality, and even necrophilla, while considered psychotic, is biological in nature. Even homosexuality, once considered a devience by the medical community, is known to be biological in nature.

As for what to do about it, if their only a potential pedophile as stated in the OP, then you should do nothing. Like Broomstick said, if they have yet to comitt a crime, then they should be left alone. No preemtive arrest, no detainment, and no 'Big Brother' type survalience. We get enough of such types of actions in the US under the excuse of 'national security risks' that we don't need another group marginallized and harrased.

And just a bit of info (just to show off that I have retained some of what I learned in Sociology ), there are two types of predators, the Pedophile, which hunt prepubesent children, and Phebophiles, which go after postpubesent children who are not yet fully developed.

[PainRack]

And just a bit of info (just to show off that I have retained some of what I learned in Sociology ), there are two types of predators, the Pedophile, which hunt prepubesent children, and Phebophiles, which go after postpubesent children who are not yet fully developed.

Isn't it Ehebephiles?

As for peodeophiles, is it really true that they tend to target boys, aka, Micheal Jackson. From what I read, its almost as if there's a differentiation in sexual drive for peodeophiles and sexual abusers.

[Anomie]

Isn't it Ehebephiles?

Just to be sure I went and looked it up in my old notes, and it is phebophiles.

As for peodeophiles, is it really true that they tend to target boys

That is pretty much pure bullshit. The majority of pedophiles are heterosexual men who target girls. The myth of 'gay pedaresty' was caused by a few but highly visable cases of child molestation, and is continued to be spread mostly as homophobic propoganda.

[Lord of the Abyss]

If we imprison everybody who has the urge to do something illegal, who will be left ? Look at murder; the last time I heard a statistic, 90% of men and 80% of women have contemplated killing people. If people were really that inclined to just carry out any old impulse, most of the population would have been exterminated long ago.

Punishing people for desires they don't act on is an example of Orwellian thought crime, and a very bad idea.

[Mobiboros]

From what I've learned in Psych and Sociolgy classes, most forms of sexual deviance are considered to be biological in function. Pedophila, bestiality, and even necrophilla, while considered psychotic, is biological in nature. Even homosexuality, once considered a devience by the medical community, is known to be biological in nature.

Just a sidenote. They aren't considered "psychotic" disorders. They are sexual and gender identity disorders (specifically they are grouped as paraphilias under that heading). Psychosis is grouped with Schizophrenia (similar to dissociative but not quite the same). That said, you're right in that there is believed to be a biological component to them as well as a learned one.

As far as what to do? If a person seeks out treatment then they should be given the psychological and psychiatric help the need/request. Otherwise you can't go running around arresting/detaining people on potential to commit crime (intent to commit is another matter). You wind up with piss poor movies like "Minority Report" when you tread down that line.

[Anomie]

Actually I meant that necrophillia is considered a psychotic disorder, the rest I mentioned are just sexual disorders. Sorry about that.

[Mobiboros]

Actually I meant that necrophillia is considered a psychotic disorder, the rest I mentioned are just sexual disorders. Sorry about that.

It's ok. Necrophilia isn't a psychotic disorder either however. It's still just a paraphilia. Granted it's a rather repugnant one that can probably lead to all sorts of disease, but it's not psychotic in nature.

[Anomie]

It's ok. Necrophilia isn't a psychotic disorder either however. It's still just a paraphilia. Granted it's a rather repugnant one that can probably lead to all sorts of disease, but it's not psychotic in nature.

Interesting. The way that I learned it was that it was a psychosexual disorder, psychotic in nature. Tonight is my first day of the new semester at college, so I'll see if I can track down my old teacher and ask her about it, see if I misunderstood what she was teaching.

[Mobiboros]

Interesting. The way that I learned it was that it was a psychosexual disorder, psychotic in nature. Tonight is my first day of the new semester at college, so I'll see if I can track down my old teacher and ask her about it, see if I misunderstood what she was teaching.

The person could additionally have some form of psychosis. They aren't mutually exclusive disorders. But one can be a necrophiliac and not evidence psychosis. The very general definition of Psychosis is the eprson has lost touch with reality. A Necrophiliac could be a perfectly functional person otherwise but is just sexually aroused by dead things. They could even recognize that the way they feel is abnormal. So they haven't actually lost touch with reality, they just evidence a particular sexual behavior..

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, you said the part of the brain that causes pedophilia has been established: could you go into more detail?

MRI and PET scans of pedophiles being shown child porn have shown the section of the brain that lights up for them but not your average person. What specific cues though, we don't know.

[wolveraptor]

It may be true that normal people fantasize about murder, but none of them are genetically inclined to feel a stronger urge. Such fantasies are usually the product of environment, not instincts. Suppose committing homosexual acts were a crime. People might want to lock up and "treat" gays, as they are, obviously, inclined to homosexual acts. However, depending on the degree of gayness, and the social atmosphere concerning homosexuality, the "patient" might easily go into relapse. As such, there is always the risk. It's the same with inclined pedophillics. In today's society, pedophillia is for whatever reason, not discussed as much as homosexuality. Thus, the positions and hatred of gayness are much stronger than those on pedophillia. People will go out and have gay pride marches, not anti-pedophillia marches. Thus, any "treatment" of pedophiles could easily break under the public air of relative nonchalance.

[The Guid]

Wolveraptor, I am not sure where you are from but in the UK imho it is easily the other way round. The hatred of paedophilia is sky high with even a hint of sympathy or empathy being shunned by the media. Homosexuality is, at least publically, accepted.

[wolveraptor]

You're right. I should not have said society. That was presumptuous of me. I meant American society.

Not to say pedophillia is more accepted in the US. I think everywhere, it's treated a bit like murder. No one goes around actively debating murder. It's wrong, simple as that. As such, the positions dont' seem to be as strong on it, because there are not contrasting positions on the other extreme (i.e. accepting pedophillia). I doubt people hold huge ralleys against pedophillia, even in the UK.

[Trytostaydead]

If we lock people up for what's in our heads we'd be in trouble (a la minority report). A lot of us fantasize or contemplate killing someone somewhere in our lives but should that be in a crime of itself? Thoughts aren't a crime.. yet. Actions though are.

[wolveraptor]

Thanks for repeating what was said only a few posts above, and what was refuted in my earlier post. Fantasies about murder for the normal person are not the same as fantasies about homosexual acts for a genuinely gay person (apply to pedophillia). We aren't discussing thoughts, but rather predilections, and strong ones.

[kheegster]

I have no doubt there are men who have impulses they know are wrong - pedophila, rape, murder, theft, whatever - and manage to suppress/restrain themselves their entire lives against committing these offenses. That's called "normal".

With crimes like murder or theft, there is usually some ulterior motive for wanting to commit it, e.g. money or hatred, unless the person is a psychopath or kleptomaniac. Remove the motive, and there's no reason to commit the crime.

As urges to commit 'normal' heterosexual rape, the person has an avenue to release those urges through sex, whether consensual or commercial.

However, a pedophile (or homosexual, in earlier times) has no such release, and worse, he faces becoming a social pariah if his sexual preference is revealed, which makes him less likely to seek help.

A person who resists his urges to commit pedophilia might be outwardly normal in most respect, but I would regard not allowing oneself to have normal contact with children as abnormal.

[Trytostaydead]

Thanks for repeating what was said only a few posts above, and what was refuted in my earlier post. Fantasies about murder for the normal person are not the same as fantasies about homosexual acts for a genuinely gay person (apply to pedophillia). We aren't discussing thoughts, but rather predilections, and strong ones.

Your argument can be made towards violence in general. There are claims that another of aneuploistic chromosome abnormalities lead to aberrant behavior, XYY and XXY (all of which are not substantiated to any great degree, but bear more so than pedophilia or homosexuality). Now we're talking about genetic components rather than environment. Then how do we deal with them?