HTL defense idea

[Sarevok]

The preferred approach at defending from HTL bolts is a brute force one. Have it detonate against a shield at virtually point blank range and hope the shield does not fail. I was thinking of something that might aid deflector shields. Create a second shield of bubble configuration and project it several kilometers away from the ship. This shield is not strong, it only needs to cause TL bolts striking it to detonate. The weak shield immediately fails after the first HTL bolt hits it. But since the bolt has detonated several kilometers away from the ship the amount of damage main shields will be taking should be vastly lower then normal. As soon as the bubble shield fails a second one is put up to defend against more HTL bolts.

Comments ?

[Vicious]

When have we seen SW shields extended that far out, ever? As far as I've read in the EU, I've never seen shields pushed more than a few centimeters away from the ship. Assuming you can work around this hurdle, how do you get around the fact that shield generators take up space, and that after each shield is knocked out they are out of commision for a while, even if they aren't flat-out destroyed by the energy backwash. You'd have huge amounts of (essentially) empty space on your ship that would be taken up by one-shot shields. If you have the room and power output to impliment this idea, why not just build a shield capable of withstanding a HTL blast in the first place and dispense with all the extra work-around?

One a semi-related note, I did come up with an idea to extend the life of your shields, if it can be applied to SW tech. The way that it seems to work is that the less energy input into the shield, longer it will last, thanks to the heatsinks (e.g. Firing a blaster at an ISD will never get you anywhere, since the ISD's heatsinks can disperse the energy faster than the blaster can input it). Given that, why not use several shield generators that each absorb only a portion of the incoming energy, thus spreading the heat around and making them last longer? Can anyone more knowledgable about the technical aspects of SW shield technology lend me some insight into this idea? Captial ships are often depicted as having back-up shields, so we know they carry multiple generators. Is there a reason they haven't employed something like this, perhaps a technical limitation I'm unaware of? Thanks in advance

[Lord of the Farce]

This would only work if Turbolasers act like the Powerguns of Hammer's Slammers universe, aka energy bullets.

Unfortunately, as one can see from TESB, turbolaser bolts can quite happily punch through their targets and keep going. By the description in one of the X-Wing novels, HTL bolts will quite happily vaporise entire starfighters and keep travelling as if the fighter was never there in the first place.

[Sarevok]

Well the idea is to pre detonate HTL bolts before they strike the main shield. Anything that will cause HTL bolts hitting it to explode will do, it does not need to be powerful at all. Maybe a theater shield like system can be used. They have bubble configuration covering large areas and their generators are not particularly big judging by the size of Gungan models seen in TPM.

The system is not perfect of course. There will be delays between one shield failing and another one going up again. During this time HTL bolts can get through. But the idea is to help augment main shields by reducing amount of firepower it takes not replace it.

[Ghost Rider]

And like Lord of the Farce has said...it will still keep coming and you've used up extra space and materials....that could've been used to augment your own main shield.

Thus the problem of your plan is that it uses up materials, power and space that could be used to augment your main shield for the sole purpose of possibly degrading the bolt.

So what happens to the next shot?

[Vicious]

Well the idea is to pre detonate HTL bolts before they strike the main shield. Anything that will cause HTL bolts hitting it to explode will do, it does not need to be powerful at all. Maybe a theater shield like system can be used. They have bubble configuration covering large areas and their generators are not particularly big judging by the size of Gungan models seen in TPM.

The system is not perfect of course. There will be delays between one shield failing and another one going up again. During this time HTL bolts can get through. But the idea is to help augment main shields by reducing amount of firepower it takes not replace it.

Err...pardon me for being dense, but how does this address the issues I pointed out, not to mention the one Lord of the Farce and Ghost Rider pointed out?

SW: Databank lists the animal that carried the generator (a faambaa) as being 5 meters tall. I don't have a screencap handy, but the generators seemed to be at least 3-4 meters tall, IIRC. That's just the "projector" part which actually deployed the shield. Now take into account the beam device which powered it, and you've got a large system that doesn't do much more than take up space and power.

[Connor MacLeod]

This maybe would work for the projectile blaster types, but nto the massless ones (or partticle beams... neither "Detonate".) Basically this is already what shields do - the force field splinters/scatters the bolt's energy over a larger area/volume to diffuse its effects (before absorption and/or reradiation.) Obviously, extending the shield out a further distance from the ship gives it a grreater volume through which to dissipate the shield effect.

The downside to that is, that the further from the generator you get, the weaker the shield becomes.. and increaseing the strength/volume/distance without diluting the overall shield strength requires greater power (and possibly puts greater strain on the generators) It also enlarges the profile in most dimensions (if a ISD is firing broadside to a ship, and it extends it shields out 100 meters further from the ship, it increases the volume, but vessels above and below have a much larger shield volume to "hit" the ship with...

Another idea is that the shield extends "under" the hull armor to some depth (which is possible and supportted by some sources.)

[Sarevok]

This would only work if Turbolasers act like the Powerguns of Hammer's Slammers universe, aka energy bullets.

Unfortunately, as one can see from TESB, turbolaser bolts can quite happily punch through their targets and keep going. By the description in one of the X-Wing novels, HTL bolts will quite happily vaporise entire starfighters and keep travelling as if the fighter was never there in the first place.

So I guess a HTL bolt can punch through a weak shield as if it is not even there and hit the main shield instead rendering secondary shields pointless.

That settles the issue then.

[Perseid]

Wasn't there an example of multiple shield layers being possible in the Black Fleet Crisis books. IIRC the Republic Sector fleet, Fleet 5 I think it was, had a Stardestroyer that had at least 3 shield levels, I think it was designed so that the ship could sit in orbit around a hevily defended world whilst being shot and still maintain the seige.

[Vicious]

Wasn't there an example of multiple shield layers being possible in the Black Fleet Crisis books. IIRC the Republic Sector fleet, Fleet 5 I think it was, had a Stardestroyer that had at least 3 shield levels, I think it was designed so that the ship could sit in orbit around a hevily defended world whilst being shot and still maintain the seige.

IIRC, that was simply utilizing multiple back-up generators to keep the shields up. I don't think they had multiple layers up at once. If I can find my copy of BTS I'll try to look it up.

[Gunhead]

I always thought that SW shields work as standoff armor. The shield tries to wear down the bolt and push it away from the craft. So low power blasts get deflected away and stronger ones get weakened enough so the main armor can withstand the blast. A TL blast is like an energy rod moving forward, and it explodes only when it encounters something it cannot penetrate.

-Gunhead

[nightmare]

According to reports Fleet Intelligence had provided to the Fifth's
planners, Bessimir's hypervelocity gun fired at a rate of 120 slugs per
minute, though rarely for more than ten seconds at a time. To avoid
deflecting the superaccelerated projectiles, the particle shield
protecting the gun was synchronized with the firing controller. The
shield would open for each outbound slug when the gun was fired, while
the ray shielding would remain in place throughout, protecting the
emplacement from any long-range counterfire.

Open, close, open, close, like the winking eye of a shutter, like a
tempting carnival game. Time the opening correctly and win the
prize.

That was why two of the three K-wings in each flight were configured as
penetrators, carrying no energy weapons at all--just

ordinary slug cannon and an extraordinary number of fichette
missiles.

If even one round, one explosive splinter, could slip through and find
its target-But to have even that slim chance, they had to get very
close--and something had to coax the gunners into firing.

That something was the New Republic Star Destroyer Resolve. Specially
outfitted with multiple shields into which were poured the full power
of her engines, she came out of hyperspace nearly dead center in the
gun's field of fire. The K-wings were approaching the perimeter of the
shield zone, hiding in the clutter, hugging every contour of the
surface as they closed in.

A'baht watched nervously, his shoulder spines rippling.

A few moments longer, and the approaching bombers would be spotted, the
threat analyzed. "Fire," he whispered. "Come on--take the bait."

Esege Tuketu, watching his penetrators race toward the red line on his
battle display, tensed himself for the high-G abort maneuver he
expected them to have to execute.

A heartbeat stretched out to a lifetime.

On impulse, Tuketu thumbed his comm switch and broke comm silence.

"Red Leader to Red Two, Red Three, stay on the tower, stay on it!"

"What are you doing?" Skids demanded.

Tuketu shook his head. "We have to get the game in before it rains."

Red Three suddenly broke right, away from its target, trying to escape
the invisible wall that lay ahead. But Red Two flew past the wave-off
point and opened fire. Streams of silver missiles flashed from under
its wings toward the stubby shield tower in their sights.

"Sorry, Tuke, too late, going around," Red Three called.

At the same moment, the big gun roared, belching a staccato stream of
slugs toward the Resolve.

Red Two broke left and up, its cannon tracking the shield tower and
firing nonstop.

"Come on, come on, come on," Tuketu said under his breath. "Make a
hole for us."

The leading edge of Red Two's salvo reached the shield boundary as the
gun was still firing. Most shattered without exploding, crushed like
insects hurled against a cockpit canopy. A few exploded against
nothingness, their triggers overwhelmed by a surging induction current
as the particle shield cycled on and off.

But two flchette missiles slipped through. The hemispheric dome of the
shield tower disappeared in a small but brilliant explosion that left
the metal remnants burning.

"How did you know?" Skids said wonderingly.

Tuketu shook his head. "I didn't," he said, pushing the throttles
forward. Ahead lay the aperture of the big gun.

Like a frantic animal fighting for its life, the hypergun fired on the
Resolve without pause from the moment the particle shield vanished.

The big cruiser wasn't nimble enough to evade the barrage pattern
thrown at it from the alpha moon, and Commander Syub Snunb wondered if
it was tough enough to withstand the hits it was taking. Shells
crashed against its invisible shields with such force that the ship
itself shuddered and shook.

"Red Flight is inside the perimeter," a lieutenant sang out.

Steadying himself against a bulkhead, Snunb acknowledged the report
with a nod. "Then we've done our job. Keep tracking the incoming
fire," he said.

"Navigator, turn and show them our heels. Keep us on an escape
heading. If they give us any kind of break at all, drop the auxiliary
shields and jump us out of here."

"Yes, Commander."

Just then the outermost shield buckled under a salvo of shells, the
impacts sucking the field strength

from the protective bubble faster than the shield generators could
restore it. An alarm sounded on the bridge as the shaking abruptly got
worse.

"The D shield is down. The generators are slagged!"

Snunb shook his head. "I must remember to tell General A'baht that I
do not much like being the bait tied outside the predator's lair. How
much longer?"

His first officer pointed to the tactical display.

"Tuketu should be over the target in another few seconds."

Another alarm sounded on the bridge of the Resolve. "I hope we have
another few seconds to give him."

The aperture of the hypergun was glowing brilliantly in the infrared on
Tuketu's targeting computer.

"Let's finish this on the first pass."

"Arming Number One," Skids sang out. "Arming Number Two. Taking
attitude control, now."

Tuketu lifted his hands from the stick and throttle.

"All yours."

The nose of the K-wing lifted skyward, and the bomber began to climb.

"Range--mark. Number One away. Number Two away. Let's not hang
around, Tuke."

As the lob bombs began to trace a clean, elegant ballistic arc, up and
over the top of a gravitational hill, Tuketu hauled the nose of the
bomber back and around to the left so sharply that he felt momentarily
dizzy. While the broad bottom of the ship was facing the target, there
was a dull roaring sound, a brilliant flash that cast long shadows on
the surface, and a neck-snapping vertical translation, as though some
mighty hand had shoved the K-wing from below.

"Too soon, too soon!" Skids cried in alarm. "Not ours.

At that moment Black One flashed by overhead, and the comm speaker
crackled to life with gleeful exultations.

"Scratch one big gun," drawled Black Leader. "My stars, that was a big
splash. She was still

firing when we bracketed her--we must have jammed up a couple of
shells in the barrel. Did you see it, Red Leader?"

"Negative, Black Leader." The landscape lit up again with a double
flash that was a pale echo of the first. "Sounds like you didn't leave
much for us, Hodo," Tuketu said with a grin.

"That'll teach you not to dawdle--sir."

"This is Green Leader," said a new voice. "I've made a verification
pass and I confirm target destroyed," "This is the Resolve. We concur
with Green Leader, target destroyed. Thank you, boys."

Obviously, a secondary shield is not a good idea in normal circumstances. You could just as well put that energy into the main shield. However, there is one feasible way to achieve a similar effect, and that's tiny localized shields. As pointed out already, they are stronger the smaller they are, giving you more 'bang for the buck' in comparison with a larger shield (but you must have that one for full protection). Such shield generators can also be tiny compared to the main systems, since their job isn't to withstand a TL blast or warhead, just cause it to hit something before the actual shield. A bit like B5 interceptor fire. Of course, this approach is also not without problems. The small, localized shields will burn out and not get put back up immediately, for example. In other words, they don't offer much extra protection, and only in a spotty way. This problem can probably be overcome to a degree with shield projectors designed for the job. We don't want feedback into the heat sinks, merely a shield bubble strong enough to cause detonation and burn out, then to be quickly projected again. If there's any additional problem with that approach, I wouldn't know since it involves inventing something new.

[Vicious]

<snip>

Obviously, a secondary shield is not a good idea in normal circumstances. You could just as well put that energy into the main shield. However, there is one feasible way to achieve a similar effect, and that's tiny localized shields. As pointed out already, they are stronger the smaller they are, giving you more 'bang for the buck' in comparison with a larger shield (but you must have that one for full protection). Such shield generators can also be tiny compared to the main systems, since their job isn't to withstand a TL blast or warhead, just cause it to hit something before the actual shield. A bit like B5 interceptor fire. Of course, this approach is also not without problems. The small, localized shields will burn out and not get put back up immediately, for example. In other words, they don't offer much extra protection, and only in a spotty way. This problem can probably be overcome to a degree with shield projectors designed for the job. We don't want feedback into the heat sinks, merely a shield bubble strong enough to cause detonation and burn out, then to be quickly projected again. If there's any additional problem with that approach, I wouldn't know since it involves inventing something new.

Ok, so my memory of BTS is faulty. I forgot that the Resolve had multiple shields active at one time.

Another thing that is pointed out in the Black Fleet Crisis, in Shield of Lies (IIRC, it might be Tyrant's Test) is that partial shields don't overlap very well. They generate a line of interferance where the two shields meet. Place a sufficiently powerful blast in that gap, and you can rip the shields apart. What we really need is a canon account of a ship's shields being extended further than a few centimeters from the ship's hull.

[nightmare]

Ok, so my memory of BTS is faulty. I forgot that the Resolve had multiple shields active at one time.

Another thing that is pointed out in the Black Fleet Crisis, in Shield of Lies (IIRC, it might be Tyrant's Test) is that partial shields don't overlap very well. They generate a line of interferance where the two shields meet. Place a sufficiently powerful blast in that gap, and you can rip the shields apart. What we really need is a canon account of a ship's shields being extended further than a few centimeters from the ship's hull.

There's an ISD hit by a Y-Wing in ROTJ, it explodes outside the hull, although the distance shouldn't be more than say 50-200 m on the top of my head. There's further reasarch about it around here somewhere.

There's also some novel passages. Daala extends shields to protect a damaged ship... I believe it was the Knight Hammer and an ISD, though I haven't checked it. This implies quite a bit of range.

X-Wings share shields to get double shield strenght.. Han expanding the shields of the MF in another book. Can prolly find more examples by looking around.

[Vicious]

Ok, so my memory of BTS is faulty. I forgot that the Resolve had multiple shields active at one time.

Another thing that is pointed out in the Black Fleet Crisis, in Shield of Lies (IIRC, it might be Tyrant's Test) is that partial shields don't overlap very well. They generate a line of interferance where the two shields meet. Place a sufficiently powerful blast in that gap, and you can rip the shields apart. What we really need is a canon account of a ship's shields being extended further than a few centimeters from the ship's hull.

There's an ISD hit by a Y-Wing in ROTJ, it explodes outside the hull, although the distance shouldn't be more than say 50-200 m on the top of my head. There's further reasarch about it around here somewhere.

There's also some novel passages. Daala extends shields to protect a damaged ship... I believe it was the Knight Hammer and an ISD, though I haven't checked it. This implies quite a bit of range.

X-Wings share shields to get double shield strenght.. Han expanding the shields of the MF in another book. Can prolly find more examples by looking around.

The only novel example I could remember was from Lando Calrissian and the Stormwind of Oseon, when it commented that extending the shields beyond a few centimeters was extremely draining. I haven't read the X-Wing series at all, and I completely forgot about the fighters in NJO. My memory is sucky today.

[wilfulton]

Unstoppable bullet, meet impenetrable armor,

impenetrable armor, meet unstoppable bullet...

[Perseid]

Concerning the extension of shields, in the Corellian Trilogy, I think it's the Corellian trilogy no sure though, I remember an instance where Han decides to test the MF shields. Too do so he has Chewie lift off on repulsors, trigger the shields and then switch off the repulsors. The shields then hold the Falcon in the air.
This is supposedly a standard test of overall shield strength

[nightmare]

The reason I mentioned a "shield bubble" is because of the Aramadia-class thrustships. Their spherical size gives their shields strenght far beyond what they should normally have, requiring just one shield generator instead of several needed to cover the angles of regular ships.

My interpretation of the trilogy along with other evidence is that a) shields are stronger when used over a smaller area given equal power input. That's merely logical, of course. The we have b) A sphere is a more optimal shape for a shield than a polygon. That also makes sense in a way. One can see that these factors will balance themselves out at some point, however, and then weigh over. Additionally, a shield sphere would for most ships create a larger target area. So it makes sense that shield bubbles aren't the prevalent type even though they could have their uses in special cases... like the Aramadia.

[Cykeisme]

a) shields are stronger when used over a smaller area given equal power input. That's merely logical, of course.

Shields don't exactly requier a power input.. and I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that they'll be stronger if they cover a smaller area. Regardless of the area they cover, the heat sink and neutrino-dumper have to work equally hard for a given amount of incoming weapon energy.

[Vicious]

a) shields are stronger when used over a smaller area given equal power input. That's merely logical, of course.

Shields don't exactly requier a power input.. and I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that they'll be stronger if they cover a smaller area. Regardless of the area they cover, the heat sink and neutrino-dumper have to work equally hard for a given amount of incoming weapon energy.

Shields don't requried a power input? WTF are you smoking?

If a shield only covers a small area, then there's less energy being absorbed. With multiple shields covering various areas, each generator is absorbing less energy, since each shield isn't being hit less. At the same time though, one shield generator can be tap the full power of the reactor (or the part which is dedicated to the shields), whereas multiple generators have to share. It's a tradeoff between raw absorbtion and the ability to deal with the energy that's absorbed.

[Dangermouse]

When have we seen SW shields extended that far out, ever? As far as I've read in the EU, I've never seen shields pushed more than a few centimeters away from the ship.

The Hoth Shield in ESB extends at a minimum tens of kilometers from the shield generator (using the horizon as a lower limit).

The scene with the fleeing transport and the propagating cannon blasts imply an even greater distance. Presumably, the blasts are timed to overtake the fleeing transports right at the energy shield to minimize the amount of time needed to lower the shields to let the ships and bolts pass. So the Hoth shield probably extends hundreds-perhaps thousands of kilometers (or more) outward. Perhaps there are other reasons why this is not seen on ships, but the technology is there.

[Vicious]

When have we seen SW shields extended that far out, ever? As far as I've read in the EU, I've never seen shields pushed more than a few centimeters away from the ship.

The Hoth Shield in ESB extends at a minimum tens of kilometers from the shield generator (using the horizon as a lower limit).

The scene with the fleeing transport and the propagating cannon blasts imply an even greater distance. Presumably, the blasts are timed to overtake the fleeing transports right at the energy shield to minimize the amount of time needed to lower the shields to let the ships and bolts pass. So the Hoth shield probably extends hundreds-perhaps thousands of kilometers (or more) outward. Perhaps there are other reasons why this is not seen on ships, but the technology is there.

The question was about SW ship-based shields, and my question was answered a while back. I know planetary and theatre shields exist, but I was wondering ship-based shields could be extended. Regardless, someone pointed to the X-Wing series and the Corellian Trilogy, both of which I haven't read, as showing examples of extendable shields.

[Dangermouse]

The question was about SW ship-based shields, and my question was answered a while back. I know planetary and theatre shields exist, but I was wondering ship-based shields could be extended. Regardless, someone pointed to the X-Wing series and the Corellian Trilogy, both of which I haven't read, as showing examples of extendable shields.

Sure. I knew the question was about shields on ships, but the point I was making was that the technology exists (as seen in the films) to extend a shield out to / pass the ranges being discussed. I can't comment on the books since I have not read them.

We also have this example from the opening sequence in ANH:



which shows a ship-based shield extending further than cms from the hull. If someone knows the size of the ship, we could estimate the distance.

Having more examples from other sources to support/refute an idea is not a bad thing.

[Lord Revan]

We also have this example from the opening sequence in ANH:

*Snip Tantive 4*

which shows a ship-based shield extending further than cms from the hull. If someone knows the size of the ship, we could estimate the distance.

that's a correlian CR-90 corvette its generally between 145 m and 155 m in length (like everything built by the CEC it's quite modular).