HighDef Content to Require New Monitors

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The Grim Squeaker
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HighDef Content to Require New Monitors

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

It's final-
from slashdot:
Ars Technica has an interesting article on how HDCP figures into Microsoft and Apple's future OS plans.
Not only will future HD content not play in pure HD on most existing monitors (it will be degraded, or not shown at all), but high-end monitors today don't support HDCP yet.
HDCP has been coming for 3+ years, but geek fantasy items such as Apple's $3,000 30" Cinema Display don't even have support for it yet!
The end result is that when Windows Vista ships (and Apple's next OS), most people won't be able to watch protected HD content on their computers."
and theres a longer article here

Well if I need to rebuy a monitor to watch hi-def content then I'd prefer other means of getting it.
A move like this would increase the time for this technology to be truly mainstream by half a decade, are they really so afraid of file sharing that they cant just write in better drm that doesnt require a new monitor?
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Post by darthdavid »

Screw fucking DRM. It will be hacked and If someone else doesn't do it for me I will. And If I can't, well then I geuss I'll just do with out. 'Cause I'm happy with my current monitors thank you very fucking much.
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Post by Praxis »

As stated on Slashdot:
Yes Microsoft has plans to incorperate full-on video DRM.

But Apple has never said they will - this article just postulates they will have to.

Well, before ITMS would not people have also postulated that it would be impossible for Apple to sell songs without DRM that would restrict CD burning? After all, that was the standard of the time.

Some companies are smart enough to realize that obsoleteing millions of monitors is Not Smart, and will avoid doing so if they can. And Apple has shown they can avoid the more onerous restrictions set forth by giant industries that would rather have it otherwise. And making millions of computer monitors obsolete is right up there in terms of gall.

So the story poster would have been wise to note the speculative nature of the topic instead of proclaiming it as fact from Apple.

I don't know where he's getting this "And Apple's Next OS" thing, as Apple hasn't even mentioned HDCP.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

You might think that you'll be able to buy an HDCP stripper, but there's a problem there. Once a stripper hits the (black or white) market, all a content provider needs to do is revoke the keys used by the device.
Wait, I don't get this. What keys? They don't mention a key in the rest of the goddamn article. They don't define what the key is or where it's coming from. Fucking sloppy writing.
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Post by darthdavid »

Uraniun235 wrote:
You might think that you'll be able to buy an HDCP stripper, but there's a problem there. Once a stripper hits the (black or white) market, all a content provider needs to do is revoke the keys used by the device.
Wait, I don't get this. What keys? They don't mention a key in the rest of the goddamn article. They don't define what the key is or where it's coming from. Fucking sloppy writing.
Well what if it's black market and it uses the same keys as something popular. Will the render millions of new legit monitors obsolete by changing these mystery keys?
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Post by Xon »

I'll take ars technica's take over slashdot anyday.
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Post by Ace Pace »

If I'm reading Ars right its saying the same thing, monitors and DRM won't dance together.
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Post by phongn »

Uraniun235 wrote:
You might think that you'll be able to buy an HDCP stripper, but there's a problem there. Once a stripper hits the (black or white) market, all a content provider needs to do is revoke the keys used by the device.
Wait, I don't get this. What keys? They don't mention a key in the rest of the goddamn article. They don't define what the key is or where it's coming from. Fucking sloppy writing.
The writer assumed that most readers of ArsTechnica are familiar with the basics of content protection and the protection methods already in place for BD-ROM and HD-DVD. In short, media can be released that checks for "known-defeated" keys and refuse to play.
darthdavid wrote:Screw fucking DRM. It will be hacked and If someone else doesn't do it for me I will. And If I can't, well then I geuss I'll just do with out. 'Cause I'm happy with my current monitors thank you very fucking much.
Just like the DRM was cracked on the Xbox, eh?
Well what if it's black market and it uses the same keys as something popular. Will the render millions of new legit monitors obsolete by changing these mystery keys?
The keyspace of 256-bit AES is sufficient to give every single device its own key ... it isn't like the current situation where each model shares a key (since CSS' key space is much smaller)
Ace Pace wrote:If I'm reading Ars right its saying the same thing, monitors and DRM won't dance together.
If the monitors used HDMI or DVI+HDCP then there is no problem.
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Post by Praxis »

ggs wrote:I'll take ars technica's take over slashdot anyday.
Um, thats the article in the original post...
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Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

My question is "why"? What does MS, Apple, or the content makers have to gain by giving people with current monitors the shaft? How is a movie harder to pirate with this restriction in place? They're not being paid off by the monitor manufacturers or there would already be HDCP on all the new monitors, so what gives?
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Post by Uraniun235 »

phongn wrote:The writer assumed that most readers of ArsTechnica are familiar with the basics of content protection and the protection methods already in place for BD-ROM and HD-DVD. In short, media can be released that checks for "known-defeated" keys and refuse to play.
Couldn't that list grow to be infeasibly long?
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Post by Sharp-kun »

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:My question is "why"? What does MS, Apple, or the content makers have to gain by giving people with current monitors the shaft?
If MS or Apple were to release a Media Player that didn't support the standards that are being adopted then they end up with a product that won't play some media. If that media standard ends up being the norm, then the product is useless.

Its the groups that are pushing these standards that are really the problem, not MS or Apple.
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Post by Beowulf »

Uraniun235 wrote:
phongn wrote:The writer assumed that most readers of ArsTechnica are familiar with the basics of content protection and the protection methods already in place for BD-ROM and HD-DVD. In short, media can be released that checks for "known-defeated" keys and refuse to play.
Couldn't that list grow to be infeasibly long?
Let's make a few assumptions: 256bit keys, and 1M of space to store the known defeated keys. That's enough space to store 32768 keys, which is a rather large number that crackers would have to go after to try and over flow it. It ain't a large amount of data, especially when you consider the fact that there's several dozen gigabytes on either format. It's maybe a few seconds of HD video, if that. You'd run out of time to crack the keys before you run out of space to store the defeated ones.
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Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

Sharp-kun wrote:If MS or Apple were to release a Media Player that didn't support the standards that are being adopted then they end up with a product that won't play some media. If that media standard ends up being the norm, then the product is useless.

Its the groups that are pushing these standards that are really the problem, not MS or Apple.
Then what do the groups pushing the standards have to gain by including this particular set of restrictions?
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Post by phongn »

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:
Sharp-kun wrote:If MS or Apple were to release a Media Player that didn't support the standards that are being adopted then they end up with a product that won't play some media. If that media standard ends up being the norm, then the product is useless.

Its the groups that are pushing these standards that are really the problem, not MS or Apple.
Then what do the groups pushing the standards have to gain by including this particular set of restrictions?
Control. The MPAA wants tight control over their content and definately do not want to see what happened to DVD repeat itself. Sony and Toshiba added all these copy-protection mandates to appeal to the MPAA, et. al.


From a brief read of the relevant thread on ArsTechnica's forum, it appears that HDCP may have been defeated entirely. If true, this means that you could probably use your HDMI connector to duplicate your discs in realtime. Defeating the protection on the disc itself (the encryption) may be much, much harder.
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Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

phongn wrote:Control. The MPAA wants tight control over their content and definately do not want to see what happened to DVD repeat itself. Sony and Toshiba added all these copy-protection mandates to appeal to the MPAA, et. al.
OK, I think I get it. By hamstringing non-HDCP monitors, they want to force in HDCP, which presumably has other benefits to them.
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Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:My question is "why"? What does MS, Apple, or the content makers have to gain by giving people with current monitors the shaft? How is a movie harder to pirate with this restriction in place? They're not being paid off by the monitor manufacturers or there would already be HDCP on all the new monitors, so what gives?
This isn't Apple of Microsoft's fault, the technology behind HD protected content simply won't work without HDCP. They can either play ball, or accept the fact that HD protected content will never work on their OS.

I suggest reading this article about it.
Ed Stroglio wrote:For the past few days, the Inquirer has had a number of articles pointing out what DRM in Longhorn-compatible systems is going to look like.

For a couple non-ranting summaries, go here and/or here. If you want to see Microsoft's much longer explanation, go there

A Quicker Summary

These protection schemes are designed to protect HDTV-standard content, and I mean protect.

What is being described here is orders of magnitude more sophisticated than the protection schemes being cracked today. The content will be encrypted up the ying-yang, and decrypting will be heavily hardware-based with constant polling at multiple points in the system.

In a sentence, if your hardware (primarily your video card and monitor) isn't up to security snuff, and you try playing a future HD-DVD or the like, legitimate or not, it either won't play at all or at best will only play in low resolution.

If you just bought a bunch of state-of-the-art, cutting-edge equipment, this means you, too. Just about any monitor sold today doesn't have the circuitry needed to make Longhorn DRM happy. It's possible to have a little box/adapter that will make it happy, but they're expensive today, and it's clear that such technology will be discouraged in the future.

If your reaction to this is, "Oh, I'll just go over to Linux," well, understand that if an HD-content doesn't find what it wants, it just won't work. I don't find it inconceivable that this could be broken, but cracking this is likely to be so complicated and cumbersome that it's unlikely to become mainstream.

I could be wrong there, but if you're looking at buying expensive equipment today that is going to have to last you longer than, say, 24 months, and you expect to eventually see HD-DVD on your machine, it would be foolish to assume that I am.

To some extent, this affects graphics cards. To a much greater degree, it will affect monitors (for instance, don't even bother buying a VGA monitor, MS is currently saying those will never work in full HD-standard, and likely won't work at all in the near future). High-end audio folks ought to be concerned, too, MS has left some ominous hints about that, too, in their white paper.

Under these circumstances, it is wise to invoke the principle, "When in doubt, don't." Don't lay out a ton for a computer monitor (or any other HD-capable screen) expecting to eventually use it for HD-DVD use unless it complies with these standards (the technical term is HDCP).

HollyOS

There can be no doubt that the draconian measures being taken are not Redmond's idea, but Hollywood's.

The horse is out of the barn for today's DVD, and these standards indicate that Hollywood won't cry over spilled milk, but they'll be damned if they let it happen again at the HD level.

It's obvious Hollywood said, "Do this, or our new DVDs won't play on PCs. Period." and they don't care what you or Microsoft or Intel or AMD or anybody else thinks about it.

If you're saying to yourself, "If Hollywood does this, I'll . . . ." Hollywood's answer to you is going to be, "Go ahead."

It's also just as obvious that this is the package which will presented to legislatures as "see, we can take care of this problem ourselves." Maybe they'll seek a little law or two that will require all systems to follow such standards, and put in serious criminal penalties for anyone who breaks them, but it's basically meant to get government off the hook on this issue, which will make them very happy.

So this will go through, and there will be tremendous wailing and gnashing of teeth, and millions of people will make mostly empty threats, and when they find out that the answer to their threat is, "Bye, and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out," and if there's no easy way to break the protection, they'll either resume buying, or join a legal music service (perhaps there will be movie services by then), or find something else to do.

A relative few will go underground, and do whatever it takes to copy the new stuff. Rather more will keep copying under the old standards and gradually fade away.

And that will be that.
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Post by The Kernel »

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:
phongn wrote:Control. The MPAA wants tight control over their content and definately do not want to see what happened to DVD repeat itself. Sony and Toshiba added all these copy-protection mandates to appeal to the MPAA, et. al.
OK, I think I get it. By hamstringing non-HDCP monitors, they want to force in HDCP, which presumably has other benefits to them.
No, HDCP is a requirement for the Copy Protection on next-gen DVD's to function, otherwise the digital output signal could be copied. Thus this is all the MPAA trying to prevent HD copying.
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Post by The Kernel »

Praxis wrote: I don't know where he's getting this "And Apple's Next OS" thing, as Apple hasn't even mentioned HDCP.
If they don't use it, they won't be able to play HD-DVD's at HD resolutions, if at all. Microsoft is just the first to announce it.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Seems to me the optimum workaround would be to get at the key database. Wonder if it'll ever get leaked.
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Post by The Kernel »

Uraniun235 wrote:Seems to me the optimum workaround would be to get at the key database. Wonder if it'll ever get leaked.
Wouldn't make a difference. They can still introduce new keys and invalidate the old ones.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Really? They'd invalidate thousands of players out there because somebody leaked the keys? That'd be a nice way to generate some negative press.
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Post by The Kernel »

Uraniun235 wrote:Really? They'd invalidate thousands of players out there because somebody leaked the keys? That'd be a nice way to generate some negative press.
No, it doesn't work like that. The keys are rotating and can be replaced which means that the new content that is released can be given new keys. Having the keys stolen would be a big setback, but it wouldn't invalidate the entire encryption scheme like deCSS did.
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Post by Sarevok »

How does it stands up to stealing frames directly from the screen with software ? There are several simple (and virtually unstoppable) ways of doing that in current Windows.
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Post by Ace Pace »

Kernel, that article you quoted, I think the sum up is "Lets fuck everyone over into buying everything new because this fucking sucks"

Words cannot describe how stupid this is from a non industry point of view.



Or maybe its because its 10AM...
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