Imperial forces When Grand Admiral Thrawn Appears-A question

[General Veers]

Hi to all,

Given the many learned folk on here on these subjects could I ask for some information?

Can I get the best estimation of numbers of Miltary forces still operating under or for Galactic Empire (As opposed to petty warlords or would be emperors) at the time of Grand Admiral Thrawns appearance?

A broad question but just educated approximations-Like number of Star Destroyers or just total of combat vessels?

A rough guess at Ground forces ( I assume the west end SW RPG book is still valid in breakdown?)

I seem to recall in A Zahn novel a figure of 200 Star Destroyers but that is my hazy memory and sounds too small-And the figure of 8 sectors seems to reappear as to the size of territory-is that canon or validated?

And if any Super Star Destroyers were still active?

Thanks its a big ask but from I have read this is the place for thoughtful answers.

[Crazedwraith]

the 8 sectors and 200 ISD firgure is from Zahn's Hand of Thrawn duology set ten years after Thrawn appeared.

[Quadlok]

Counts from that time would be difficult, as the bulk of the Imperial military was in the Deep Core waiting to be unleashed by the clone Emperor. From the books it seemed like Thrawn's primary attack fleet did not even equal a single full strength sector fleet.

[The Grim Squeaker]

It is said that the NR controls slightly more than half the galaxy with more & better motivated people, meaning the imperials control roughly half their former strength (they still hold most of their important teritories- major shipyards [Kuat] and the deep core)

[Vicious]

It is said that the NR controls slightly more than half the galaxy with more & better motivated people, meaning the imperials control roughly half their former strength (they still hold most of their important teritories- major shipyards [Kuat] and the deep core)

Incorrect. The Empire never controlled the entire galaxy. Nearly a quarter of it is commonly labeled as the Unknown Regions. So, in reality the Empire possessed less than a third of their original territory, and they lost a lot of the mose influential planets in the core and mid-rim. The Deep Core was never a major Imperial power point except from the standpoint of the Emperor's sanctuary on Byss on his return and the fact that it's extremely dense and thus easy to hide in.

For Thrawn, who lacked the Deep Core worlds and Byss, he held a lot of formerly outlying territories and far-flung worlds, but lacked the large industrial base of the NR.

I don't know what military assets he had at his disposal though.

[Guardsman Bass]

I don't know what military assets he had at his disposal though.

From what it appeared, Thrawn's main shipyard was at Bilbringi. Although he had ships, he had very little in the way of industrial production, which was why he was determined to capture the Katana fleet, and according to Karrde, was paying significant amounts of money for any capital ships.

[NRS Guardian]

IIRC the Essential Chronology said that although the NR held like 2/3 or more of the former Empire leaving Thrawn with less than 1/3 of the Empire. Due to the Empire's more militarized nature Thrawn's forces and those of the NR were pretty much even, which is the reason given for 200 dreadnaughts being able to influence a galactic conflict.
Thrawn didn't have anything bigger than an ISD due to the emperor squirreling away most of the cruisers and battleships, and the few he didn't have control over were in the hands of warlords which either refused to support Thrawn or held back some portion of their forces, because according to Isard's Revenge Imperial support for Thrawn wasn't universal or whole-hearted due to jealousy and racism against Thrawn.
From TTT it seems Thrawn controlled enough ships to adequately defend his third of the galaxy and enough left over to give him a striking force of dozens of SDs and at least a thousand smaller ships.

[Publius]

The following is quoted from "Sic Transit Gloria: The Decline and Fall of the Galactic Empire":

By this time, the Empire was ailing badly. Most of the Core Worlds Region had been lost early in the Ruling Circle's tenure, as had the Colonies Region and the Inner Rim Region, although The Roleplaying Game, Second Edition (West End Games, 1992) notes that the Inner Rim Region "was held by the Empire far longer than New Republic analysts expected," giving rise to a great deal of popular resentment against the New Republic for its perceived failure to drive the Empire out in a more timely manner. The Expansion Region, formerly a source of "rich tax revenues," was now "generally allied with the New Republic," leaving most of the Imperial State's holdings in the backwater Outer Rim (which had long ago ceased to be a major Imperial holding) and the resource-poor Mid-Rim Region, which was infested with pirate fleets and rogue warlords, and "private empires," which it apparently tolerated on the condition that they supply troops and tribute to the Empire proper. The latest series of clashes had left the New Republic with control of three quarters of the galaxy, according to The Essential Chronology, leaving the Empire to share the remaining quarter with other independent states and rogue warlords, such as the Commonality, the Corporate Sector, the Pentastar Alignment, the Centrality, the Tion Hegemony, and Hutt Space (many of these independent states were formerly Imperial client states). Even much of these holdings were theoretical at best; some warlords, like Moff Governor Getelles of Antemeridian Sector and the self-styled Prince-Admiral Delak Krennel of the Ciutric Hegemony, recognized a nominal suzerainty on the part of the Imperial State, but little else; the Imperial State's territories in Wild Space, formally annexed by Grand Admiral Thrawn according to A Guide to the Star Wars Universe, Second Edition (Del Rey, 1994), were also largely nominal, as the Empire was "too busy to enforce its subjugation."

Although the Imperial State held onto its shipyards at Bilbringi in the Inner Rim, it had in fact lost most of its major shipyards, including Kuat, Corellia, Duro, Sluis Van, and Imperial Center (the disposition and allegiance of Rendili and Loronar are not known during this period), thus depriving it of much of its capacity to manufacture the Imperial Starfleet's larger warships, although some shipyards like Ord Trasi and Yaga Minor remained in the Outer Rim. At the same time, enormous numbers of Imperial warships were simply disappearing, vanishing into the Deep Galactic Core, making the Navy's losses during the recent fighting over Zsinj's territory all the more debilitating. It was quite fortunate that in an Isardian twist, Kuat – like Brentaal in 39 AGR – had been denied to the New Republic as well, and a sudden and unexpected Imperial raid on the New Republic's secret Hast Shipyards resulted in that yard's also being rendered inert, and single-handedly "helped throw the Republic's plans years behind schedule," "cutting short a planned campaign against what remained of the Empire," according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

[...]

The arrival of the year 44 AGR found the Ruling Circle ruling an Imperial State with nominal control of "barely a quarter of the galaxy" and suffering from a stagflated economy and lack of ships and resources. The Dark Empire Sourcebook explains that the Ruling Circle suddenly and quite unexpectedly received "a series of ident codes" from the Unknown Regions, which were "unquestionably authentic" and "accompanied a holo message" from the last of Isard's pet Loyalist grand admirals, Grand Admiral Thrawn, the last Warlord of the Empire (a title whose precise significance is unknown, but which appears to have been distributed at the Galactic Emperor's pleasure, as the Dark Empire Sourcebook refers to him as "the last of the Emperor's Warlords," and Heir to the Empire, Bantam, 1991, states that his "brilliant successes had won him the title of Warlord and the right to wear the white uniform of Grand Admiral – the only nonhuman ever granted that honor by the Emperor"). The Essential Chronology states that Thrawn was promptly occupied for six months with reorganizing the fleet and commanding "strategic raids along the New Republic-Imperial border," which "weren't sufficient to panic the New Republic," but served to impress the Ruling Circle (referred to as "the moffs, governors, and other political leaders"); evidently this included having Imperial warships patrol deep within New Republic space, as the smuggler Mara Jade was detained in Dark Force Rising (Bantam, 1992) by HIMS Adamant, a Victory Star Destroyer patrolling the Abregado system, which Coruscant and the Core Worlds explicitly states to have been a lawless port on the edge of the Core Worlds Region. The Dark Empire Sourcebook explains that the Ruling Circle quickly put aside their differences and decided that Thrawn would be the perfect figurehead, being a non-human with "no power base save his own competence," who could "rely on no support other than what they chose to give him." In the event of his success, they would back him and reap the rewards of his conquests. In the event that he should prove "too independent," they resolved to have him assassinated. Thus in agreement, the Ruling Circle appointed him their supreme commander and Thrawn was "effectively handed the reins of the Empire."

The Essential Chronology states that Thrawn "consolidated loyal Imperial forces," which probably refers to the quasi-independent pocket empires under nominal Imperial suzerainty in the Mid-Rim; The Roleplaying Game, Second Edition states that "many such areas" controlled by the Empire were "firmly controlled by the Imperial starfleet, which for the time being has rallied around Grand Admiral Thrawn," but "this is a tenuous alliance at best," as "many of the regions of 'Imperial Space' are actually small dictatorships, administered and controlled by the Moffs who were directed to run them for the Emperor in years past." (The Dark Empire Sourcebook adds that "Thrawn's support was far from universal or even enthusiastic.") Second to this consolidation of Imperial command and control, the Historical Council further states that he "marginalized warlord fiefdoms" such as Ardus Kaine's Pentastar Alignment and the Prince-Admiral of the Ciutric Hegemony (although Isard's Revenge, Bantam, 1998, indicates that the latter gave some financial support to the Imperial State during Thrawn's shôgunate). According to Thrawn's flag captain, Captain Gilad Pellaeon of HIMS Chimaera, actual operations during this period generally consisted of "minor shipping raid{s}" and "complex but straightforward hit-and-fade{s} against some insignificant planetary base." One such minor operation was the information raid on Obroa-skai seen in Heir to the Empire.

Hopefully this will be of assistance to you.

[Lord of the Farce]

Incorrect. The Empire never controlled the entire galaxy. Nearly a quarter of it is commonly labeled as the Unknown Regions.

More like a nitpick than anything, but IIRC, based on (generous) measurements of the maps that came with the NJO books, the Unknown Region makes up at most around 14% of the surface area of the SW galaxy. And that assumes the galaxy is flat/2D.

[General Veers]

Thank you all for the information, Publius that saved alot of work thank you for your efforts in general.

[Vicious]

Incorrect. The Empire never controlled the entire galaxy. Nearly a quarter of it is commonly labeled as the Unknown Regions.

More like a nitpick than anything, but IIRC, based on (generous) measurements of the maps that came with the NJO books, the Unknown Region makes up at most around 14% of the surface area of the SW galaxy. And that assumes the galaxy is flat/2D.

*shrug* Ok, thanks for the correction. I was trying to remember from the maps on the jackets of the NJO books. I also vaguely remember someone mentioning 1/4th in one of the books, but I haven't read any EU in so long I'd have no hope of remembering the quote, so 14% it is. That makes more sense anyways.

[xerex]

Incorrect. The Empire never controlled the entire galaxy. Nearly a quarter of it is commonly labeled as the Unknown Regions.

More like a nitpick than anything, but IIRC, based on (generous) measurements of the maps that came with the NJO books, the Unknown Region makes up at most around 14% of the surface area of the SW galaxy. And that assumes the galaxy is flat/2D.

in Vision of the Future the area of the Unknown Region mapped by Thrawn (and later Parck) is given as being the equivilent of 250 sectors.

Does anyone know how many sectors were in the Empire at its height ?

ALSO in Heir to the Empire the systems under "nominal Imperial Control" are given as being barely 1/4 of the pre-Endor Empire

[The Original Nex]

Does anyone know how many sectors were in the Empire at its height ?

Over 1000

[xerex]

Does anyone know how many sectors were in the Empire at its height ?

Over 1000

hmmm then given that there are several regions of space not under Impreial control - Unknown Space, Wild Space, Sii Ruuk (?) space......i'd say the empire controlled maybe 55% or so of the galaxy.....assuming the Unknown regions really are 14% of the total. of course since the core will be a bulge...the empire is probabvly closer to 70% of the total

[Chris OFarrell]

Does anyone know how many sectors were in the Empire at its height ?

Over 1000

hmmm then given that there are several regions of space not under Impreial control - Unknown Space,

No its not.

Wild Space,

Source?

Sii Ruuk (?) space

Hardly. The NR and Chiss defeated the Sii Ruuk for all intents and puposes, the arm of the Galaxy that made up their empire was sweapt clean. The empire had nothing to do with it.

......i'd say the empire controlled maybe 55% or so of the galaxy.....assuming the Unknown regions really are 14% of the total. of course since the core will be a bulge...the empire is probabvly closer to 70% of the total

No. Its explicitly said in SOTP that Thrawn had about a third of the resources of what had once been the Empire to work with.


The problem with the 1000 sectors is that its predicated upon SOTP being right that the SW Galaxy is only one quater populated and that the unknown regions take up the majority of space. If you reject this, then you have to reject the 'super empire'. Of course its solidly rejected anyway as in the New Jedi Order we get a very good look at Chiss space and the Unknown Regions...and its completly empty with nothing of worth. The chiss military is a complete joke as are the bandits around the area.

To address the original point, according to Han in HTTE, the Empire and New Republic were just about evenly gunned. Assuming this was talking about the entire Empire and not what Thrawn had access to, it makes sense. TLC has Ackbar saying that even with the Katana fleet and clone powerhouse, the NR had the balance of power in its favour for the imediate timeframe. And Isards Revenge I think has something like 10% ship losses and 30% casulaties to the NR armed forces from Thrawns campaign.

Oh and the Empire hardly controled the Core. The republic controled most of it, Courscant is right in it afterall. The Empire just hid a fleet in the DEEP core. Which frankly didn't appear to be THAT big. Its just the size of the ships that made them a threat, that and the Eclipse/Galaxy gun.

[Vicious]

Over 1000

hmmm then given that there are several regions of space not under Impreial control - Unknown Space,

No its not.

Wild Space,

Source?

Sii Ruuk (?) space

Hardly. The NR and Chiss defeated the Sii Ruuk for all intents and puposes, the arm of the Galaxy that made up their empire was sweapt clean. The empire had nothing to do with it.

......i'd say the empire controlled maybe 55% or so of the galaxy.....assuming the Unknown regions really are 14% of the total. of course since the core will be a bulge...the empire is probabvly closer to 70% of the total

No. Its explicitly said in SOTP that Thrawn had about a third of the resources of what had once been the Empire to work with.


The problem with the 1000 sectors is that its predicated upon SOTP being right that the SW Galaxy is only one quater populated and that the unknown regions take up the majority of space. If you reject this, then you have to reject the 'super empire'. Of course its solidly rejected anyway as in the New Jedi Order we get a very good look at Chiss space and the Unknown Regions...and its completly empty with nothing of worth. The chiss military is a complete joke as are the bandits around the area.

To address the original point, according to Han in HTTE, the Empire and New Republic were just about evenly gunned. Assuming this was talking about the entire Empire and not what Thrawn had access to, it makes sense. TLC has Ackbar saying that even with the Katana fleet and clone powerhouse, the NR had the balance of power in its favour for the imediate timeframe. And Isards Revenge I think has something like 10% ship losses and 30% casulaties to the NR armed forces from Thrawns campaign.

Oh and the Empire hardly controled the Core. The republic controled most of it, Courscant is right in it afterall. The Empire just hid a fleet in the DEEP core. Which frankly didn't appear to be THAT big. Its just the size of the ships that made them a threat, that and the Eclipse/Galaxy gun.

What the hell are you smoking? SOTP doesn't rely on the galaxy being only 1/4 populated, it postulates that ~1/4 of the galaxy is unoccupied by either the NR or the Remnant. Thus indicating that the Empire controlled roughly 3/4s of the galaxy. If they are down to 1/3 of the Empire's former resources, that leaves them with *gasp* about 1/4 of the galaxy! Dipwad.

Wild Space is referenced on the jacket maps of most, if not all, of the NJO books, as well as appearing elsewhere, IIRC.

The arm of the the galaxy that the Ssi Ruuk occupied was not "swept clean". In fact, I can't recall the NR ever invading Ssi Ruuk space. The Ssi Ruuk were defeated at Bakura and retreated to lick their wounds.

You know why the maps of the Unknown Regions contain nothing but empty space? Because they are UNKNOWN!

Why would Han be talking about the Empire at it's height in relation to the current conflict between the NR and the Remnant? What the fuck does the Empire's full power have to do with the equation?

Thrawn didn't control the Deep Core fleets, so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

In short, what the hell was your post about, exactly?

[Noble Ire]

The arm of the the galaxy that the Ssi Ruuk occupied was not "swept clean". In fact, I can't recall the NR ever invading Ssi Ruuk space. The Ssi Ruuk were defeated at Bakura and retreated to lick their wounds.

I don't recall the exact source, but the NR sent a fairly sizeable force to ensure that the Ssi-ruuk wouldn't be a threat again (I think after Coruscant was retaken, although I'm not sure.) Most of the Ruuk assests were destroyed and they were reduced greately in strength, at which point the Chiss wiped them out.

[Vicious]

The arm of the the galaxy that the Ssi Ruuk occupied was not "swept clean". In fact, I can't recall the NR ever invading Ssi Ruuk space. The Ssi Ruuk were defeated at Bakura and retreated to lick their wounds.

I don't recall the exact source, but the NR sent a fairly sizeable force to ensure that the Ssi-ruuk wouldn't be a threat again (I think after Coruscant was retaken, although I'm not sure.) Most of the Ruuk assests were destroyed and they were reduced greately in strength, at which point the Chiss wiped them out.

Ah, ok. I don't recall reading that, but I missed a fair bit of the EU, especially from that time period. It still stands that neither the NR, the Empire or the Chiss occupied Ssi Ruuk space, and thus it can be counted in the "empty" space.

[xerex]

dude what are you talking about ? my post actually has little to do with the strength of the Empire in HTTE. i'm merely trying to estimate the portion of the glaxy the empire controlled at the time of Endor. I estimate it to be about 70%. that's all.



oh and HTTE does state that the Empire is down to a quarter of its pre Endor size. Additionally in those novels it does seem that despite Thrawn brilliance he is outnumbered .

[FTeik]

As far as i know the Sii-Ruuk don't originate in one of the galaxies spiral-arms, but are from an extra-galactic cluster.

According to EC after TAB the Alliance sent a (for them) sizable force of several frigates (Nebulon-Bs) to deal with the Sii-Ruuk, but found them crushed. It was left open, if the Chiss themself or Thrawn's fraction of them was responsible for that.

[Lord Pounder]

In later NJO books Jag Fel mentions that he personally fought in several large battles against the Ssi Ruuk so it's a safe assumption that the Chiss dealt with them from the other direction.

[Chris OFarrell]

What the hell are you smoking? SOTP doesn't rely on the galaxy being only 1/4 populated, it postulates that ~1/4 of the galaxy is unoccupied by either the NR or the Remnant.

False. SOTP PP 311:

"And in the center of it all was a sight that sent a shiver of memort along Luke's spine: a holographic map of the galaxy, with the sectors of the New Republic, the Empire and the rest of the known regions marked out in a bewildering array of a dozen different colors. The whole variegated mosaic stretched across perhaps a quater of the huge spiral, fading into neutral white where the edges of the Outer Rime Territories gave way to the vastness of the Unkown Regions beyond.

Please don't be such an idiotic asshole and debate on subjects you clearly know nothing about. The explicite quote here shows that only a QUATER of the Galaxy was inhabited and claimed by the Galaxy and that the outer rim gave way to the huge areas of the unknown regions.

Which is the whole bloody problem with SOTP/VOTF. Because the 'uber Thrawn OMG 250 sector' claims run smack into the problem that Zahns assumptions are completly bonkers as multiple sources explicitly show just about the entire Galaxy explored and inhabited.

*snip irrelevency*

The arm of the the galaxy that the Ssi Ruuk occupied was not "swept clean". In fact, I can't recall the NR ever invading Ssi Ruuk space. The Ssi Ruuk were defeated at Bakura and retreated to lick their wounds.

False. The New Republic (eventualy) got around to launching a systematic campaign against the Imperium which threw them back to their Homeworld, with the help of the Chiss. By the time of Jedi Search I think Mon Mothma commented something about one section of a Galactic arm being all that was left of the Imperium. And I think another source commented that the Chiss turned up later to finish up the job.

You know why the maps of the Unknown Regions contain nothing but empty space? Because they are UNKNOWN!

You know why your point is flawed? Because the Chiss have MAPPED them extensivly! They are unknown to the Galaxy in general because the Chiss try to keep visitors out, they are highly xenophobic afterall. But from what we have seen in the NJO, the majority of the place is completly empty because there are no resources or strategic locations that make it worth getting inside. Depiste the fact that the data in VOTF is inherently unreliable because Zhan screwed the whole thing, all it means is that Thrawn has access to said charts which have maps of the Unknown regions. It doesn't mean there is anything IN them, that is just Mara speculating. A speculation which later was proven to be unfounded.

Why would Han be talking about the Empire at it's height in relation to the current conflict between the NR and the Remnant?

Well lets see. Because Han wasn't TALKING about the Remant? He was talking about Thrawns Empire which sure as hell wasn't the Imperial Remaint. They were still a major power in the Galaxy and still apparently had a third of the originial Empire at its height resouces to work with.

What the fuck does the Empire's full power have to do with the equation?

Because it shows just WHAT the full power of the Empire IS. The New Republic by this time is considered THE major power in the Galaxy and the Empire is worth little more then a mop up, even with a third its resources still remaining. And this is ignoring the fact that large parts of the Galaxy are staying the hell out of this fight.

Thrawn didn't control the Deep Core fleets, so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Jesus Christ your an idiot, The deep core fleets have SIGNIFICANT bearing on the topic because we need to understand just HOW MUCH of a proportion of the Imperial Fleet they made up, to be able to judge just how much of the Navy Thrawn was able to grab upon his return compared to what was left. For gods SAKE, the original question in fact was:

"Can I get the best estimation of numbers of Miltary forces still operating under or for Galactic Empire (As opposed to petty warlords or would be emperors) at the time of Grand Admiral Thrawns appearance? "

Including sub questions such as:

And if any Super Star Destroyers were still active?

A broad question but just educated approximations-Like number of Star Destroyers or just total of combat vessels?

So pray tell how is discussing the deep core fleet, which IS operating under the Galactic Empire and DOES contain the remaining Super Star Destroyers and DOES contain a large number of line Star Destroyers, off topic?

Fucking learn to read before you jump in flaming away like an idiot.

[FTeik]

False. SOTP PP 311:

"And in the center of it all was a sight that sent a shiver of memort along Luke's spine: a holographic map of the galaxy, with the sectors of the New Republic, the Empire and the rest of the known regions marked out in a bewildering array of a dozen different colors. The whole variegated mosaic stretched across perhaps a quater of the huge spiral, fading into neutral white where the edges of the Outer Rime Territories gave way to the vastness of the Unkown Regions beyond.

Please don't be such an idiotic asshole and debate on subjects you clearly know nothing about. The explicite quote here shows that only a QUATER of the Galaxy was inhabited and claimed by the Galaxy and that the outer rim gave way to the huge areas of the unknown regions.

Which is the whole bloody problem with SOTP/VOTF. Because the 'uber Thrawn OMG 250 sector' claims run smack into the problem that Zahns assumptions are completly bonkers as multiple sources explicitly show just about the entire Galaxy explored and inhabited.

Could the map only mark the truly inhabitated or currently exploited systems of sectors and leave the rest of the barren systems white?

[Ender]

Over 1000

hmmm then given that there are several regions of space not under Impreial control - Unknown Space,

No its not.

If it is or isn't is debatable, it depends if you think the Empire of the Hand was loya and simply established another proxy state like hapes or the CSA, or if you think they were a bunch of traitors.

Wild Space,

Source?

Kathol Outback sourcebook I believe. Wild space is technically controlled, but no one goes there because there is no point ot it - too sparsely populated, not enough stuff to make it worthwhile. So its a lot of pirates and mini factions. Utapu and kamino are examples of these planets.

Sii Ruuk (?) space

Hardly. The NR and Chiss defeated the Sii Ruuk for all intents and puposes, the arm of the Galaxy that made up their empire was sweapt clean. The empire had nothing to do with it.

Not quie correct - 1) it was only a star cluster, not an arm of the galaxy. 2) The NR had nothing to do with it, they showed up to find the lizzies utterly smashed. The Empire of the Hand took care of them along with Chiss forces. 3) They weren't wiped out, they had their asses beaten so hard by the tech difference that they spent the next 20 years simply upgrading and trying to expand in a more circumspect way. The Vong stopped this and triggered a civil war between them.

......i'd say the empire controlled maybe 55% or so of the galaxy.....assuming the Unknown regions really are 14% of the total. of course since the core will be a bulge...the empire is probabvly closer to 70% of the total

No. Its explicitly said in SOTP that Thrawn had about a third of the resources of what had once been the Empire to work with.

I don't remember that at all. I remember a statement that he started with a single destroyer and that Palpatine kept feeding him ships along the way, but nothing beyond that. Quote?

The problem with the 1000 sectors is that its predicated upon SOTP being right that the SW Galaxy is only one quater populated and that the unknown regions take up the majority of space. If you reject this, then you have to reject the 'super empire'.

No. The 1042 sector galaxy comes from The Phantom Menace, which support a supercivilization. You are assuming that a sector is very small, but this need not be the case. Oddly, this has been changed by the time of Revenge of the Sith, to the point where 2,000 senators are a small minority.

Interestinly, it appears that the Republic did not cover the entire galaxy. Cloak of Deception has statements indicating that the outer rim teritories are less then full members of the republic, and Kamino and Utaptu are both examples of not Republic planets. however, in all these cases the Empire forcibly absobed them into it.

Of course its solidly rejected anyway as in the New Jedi Order we get a very good look at Chiss space and the Unknown Regions...and its completly empty with nothing of worth. The chiss military is a complete joke as are the bandits around the area.

Indeed. Even Survivor's Quest supports this, with the entire bit happening in a star cluster - which are only found in glactic halos.

However, The Joiner King has chiss going head to head with Hapans, suggesting the tech isn't that far of afterall. This reconciles poorly with the capabilities of the Killik though, a difficult point.

Oh and the Empire hardly controled the Core. The republic controled most of it, Courscant is right in it afterall. The Empire just hid a fleet in the DEEP core. Which frankly didn't appear to be THAT big. Its just the size of the ships that made them a threat, that and the Eclipse/Galaxy gun.

Indeed. the Deep Core is resource and infastructure poor. What made it formidable was the fact that Palpatine had summoned most of the alrge ships of the fleet there. They would have had great dificulty conducting a long campaign, but the could pretty much just rancor roll right over anything out there.

[General Veers]

Thank you all for the contributions:) However I'm still a bit lost in the replys. Ok The core fleets were available to Thrawn? I assumed placed at his command. They had super Star Destroyers in their order of battle-is there a figure? I have seen so many debates on SSDs I do need some sense of finality to a figure-I have seen 12 as an upper figure or even 16.
Apparently Stackpole had calculated a figure based on a production rate of 4 SSD's a year?

I have not fully read Dark Empire, but accept as part of EU its all there-When did the Reborn Emperor assume power in relation to Thrawns Arrival?

Ok besides the few SDs under Thrawns control can I assume 1000's were operational?

Thank you its good reading:)