A change at Mustafar (concerning the fate of Vader)

[Moltar]

Okay greetings to everyone, I've been ghosting this forum for probabally about 2 years now, and I'm pretty sure that I haven't seen this discussed before. If it has please lock this thread.

I was curious how the OT would have changed if Obi-Wan had incapicated Vader in a way that didn't involve turning him into a charred torso. Say Vader went down that lavafall and managed to leap to safety at the bottom, Obi-Wan believes he died and goes and gets Padme and leaves and the movie finishes. How would the OT have changed if there was a whole Vader and not a torso in a suit?

[Elheru Aran]

About the *whole* OT would've changed. Palpatine would've had a much more lethal and efficient apprentice to throw into the Jedi purge, for one thing. I don't doubt that he would've taken a much more active effort in governing the Empire as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the Senate is dissolved much earlier, as Anakin had a hearty dislike for politicans except Palpatine and Padme.

[Darth Wong]

Vader would have killed Palpatine eventually and seized control of the Empire for himself. I seem to recall GL somewhere saying that Anakin would have become much more powerful than Palpatine if he had not been reduced to a ruined shell of a man.

It is interesting to speculate on what kind of Empire he would have ruled. On the one hand, Anakin has a more noble personality than Palpatine does (which isn't saying much, I know). On the other hand, it's entirely possible that growing to such great levels of power in the Dark Side would have changed his personality for the worse.

I've always personally liked the idea of Emperor Vader.

[Noble Ire]

Vader would have killed Palpatine eventually and seized control of the Empire for himself. I seem to recall GL somewhere saying that Anakin would have become much more powerful than Palpatine if he had not been reduced to a ruined shell of a man.

Palpatine says this himself in ROTS if you will recall.


But yes, an Empire under Vader would be the most likely outcome. It is possible that without Palpatine's influence, he could have been less hate-filled and evil, and perhaps even have drifted away from the dark as the Purge continued, but it is equally as likely that he simply would have been a more powerful, if less devious, Emperor Palpatine, corrupted completely by the Dark Side.

[Drooling Iguana]

Makes you wonder, did Palpatine ever really plan to rule the galaxy himself for any extended period of time, or was he just trying to set things up to ensure the dominion of his Sith successors?

[Solauren]

You also have to wonder what Vader would have done with Padme, or would Padme have done for that matter?

Break her to the Dark Side? Or would she 'turn' willingly after some persuasion?

[Sea Skimmer]

You also have to wonder what Vader would have done with Padme, or would Padme have done for that matter?

Break her to the Dark Side? Or would she 'turn' willingly after some persuasion?

Since when is she force sensitive? I don't see why if she survived he'd need to do more then lock her in a big tower to raise the kids.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

It is interesting to speculate on what kind of Empire he would have ruled. On the one hand, Anakin has a more noble personality than Palpatine does (which isn't saying much, I know). On the other hand, it's entirely possible that growing to such great levels of power in the Dark Side would have changed his personality for the worse.

I've always personally liked the idea of Emperor Vader.

One thing is for sure. The rebellion would burn hotter. Palpatine is supposed to be popular close to the Core. Anakin isn't a tenth the politician that Palpatine is. He doesn't know the art of working with the flow so what he wants comes to him. Instead, he'd try and grab what he wants, and that would create more discontent faster.

[Wicked Pilot]

I'm guessing Vader would have lost control of the Empire in pretty short order. Being a Sith badass will only take you so far, you have to be a devious Republican leader like Sideous to maintain your control for any good period of time.

[Solauren]

You also have to wonder what Vader would have done with Padme, or would Padme have done for that matter?

Break her to the Dark Side? Or would she 'turn' willingly after some persuasion?

Since when is she force sensitive? I don't see why if she survived he'd need to do more then lock her in a big tower to raise the kids.

With Break her to the Dark Side, I mean turn her evil and a willing servant of the Empire/him.

[Imperator Galacticus]

I'm guessing Vader would have lost control of the Empire in pretty short order. Being a Sith badass will only take you so far, you have to be a devious Republican leader like Sideous to maintain your control for any good period of time.

One wonders whether Anakin would have had much of a chance at all. Knowing the mind of Sidious, the schemer in him probably expected all along that Vader would eventually attempt a coup. He suspected Vader's offer to Luke...why not suspect that Vader's ambitions would eventually lead to much more soon?

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

While I never really bought the notion that Vader lost some force Sensitivity after Mustafar, I do think that he would still have a vastly stronger will to overthrow Palpatine. Whether or not the Empire would be as oppressive as it was under Palpatine is debatable. But I think that Anakin would be smart not to overthrow him so quickly.

[Zorak]

Vader would have killed Palpatine eventually and seized control of the Empire for himself. I seem to recall GL somewhere saying that Anakin would have become much more powerful than Palpatine if he had not been reduced to a ruined shell of a man.

The "ruined shell of a man" part could have been more of a figurative message, for Vader was essentially crushed emotionally. He lived only to serve his master, which is different from all other Sith Apprentices.

All aspire (and Vader did too but only after he found Luke) to surpass their master and overcome them and their position (killing them in the process) by using their flaws as their undoing, and taking it as a lesson. Its the flow of the Sith following Bane, it makes sure that there is a definite progression of skill, and that Apprentices learn of their masters' flaws and how to correct them in themselves.

Vader had no such aspirations as I said until he discovered Luke. It gave him a future, a reason to live and to surpass the Emperor. The Emperor had achieved the ancient Sith goal. But Vader had no will to surpass what the Emperor had done, only execute the Emperor's commands and whims. Perhaps this is why the Emperor wished to dispose of him, it had no progression, no improvements of the flaws. The lineage of the Sith would have died with Palpatine and Vader. Vader lacked the leadership skills that Palpatine had, the ones that allowed him to lead an Empire. Luke on the other hand, both Vader and the Emperor realized, had these skills along with a formidability in the force. He gave Vader a reason to live beyond serving the Emperor, but the Emperor saw him as his new apprentice, one less emotionally shattered then Anakin.

I doubt there would have been much of a difference if Anakin would have become injuired or not; he would have been emotionally ripped to shreds, and over time this would manifest itself on his body as it does on most Dark Side users. I think Vader is much stronger in the dark side of the force then he was before Mustafar, and while he is free thinking and even extremely capable of a distinct personality and view of the Empire, he lacks a will to take over.

I don't think Vader ever would consider taking over the Empire after Padme died and before Luke appeared on the scene, period. His very heart was wrenched from his body, and he was left as a "ruined shell of a man".

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Vader would have killed Palpatine eventually and seized control of the Empire for himself. I seem to recall GL somewhere saying that Anakin would have become much more powerful than Palpatine if he had not been reduced to a ruined shell of a man.

The "ruined shell of a man" part could have been more of a figurative message, for Vader was essentially crushed emotionally. He lived only to serve his master, which is different from all other Sith Apprentices.

All aspire (and Vader did too but only after he found Luke) to surpass their master and overcome them and their position (killing them in the process) by using their flaws as their undoing, and taking it as a lesson. Its the flow of the Sith following Bane, it makes sure that there is a definite progression of skill, and that Apprentices learn of their masters' flaws and how to correct them in themselves.

Vader had no such aspirations as I said until he discovered Luke. It gave him a future, a reason to live and to surpass the Emperor. The Emperor had achieved the ancient Sith goal. But Vader had no will to surpass what the Emperor had done, only execute the Emperor's commands and whims. Perhaps this is why the Emperor wished to dispose of him, it had no progression, no improvements of the flaws. The lineage of the Sith would have died with Palpatine and Vader. Vader lacked the leadership skills that Palpatine had, the ones that allowed him to lead an Empire. Luke on the other hand, both Vader and the Emperor realized, had these skills along with a formidability in the force. He gave Vader a reason to live beyond serving the Emperor, but the Emperor saw him as his new apprentice, one less emotionally shattered then Anakin.

I doubt there would have been much of a difference if Anakin would have become injuired or not; he would have been emotionally ripped to shreds, and over time this would manifest itself on his body as it does on most Dark Side users. I think Vader is much stronger in the dark side of the force then he was before Mustafar, and while he is free thinking and even extremely capable of a distinct personality and view of the Empire, he lacks a will to take over.

I don't think Vader ever would consider taking over the Empire after Padme died and before Luke appeared on the scene, period. His very heart was wrenched from his body, and he was left as a "ruined shell of a man".

I agree with except in the little nitpick about the Emperor wanting Luke from the Beginning. He didn't. For the most part he was satisfied with Vader and greatly feared Luke for many reasons. His Potential exceed both him and Vader and that Vader would have a father's Love for Him. (Thus Like you said it would give Vader the will to overthow Palpatine) Remember it took Vader convincing Palpatine to come around to turning him.

[Zorak]

Yes, the Emperor was wary of Luke because of his sheer power. However, it could very well be that he was against this possible breaking of the Sith progression. He couldn't seriously have two apprentices at the time, it broke the rules of Bane, which the Emperor followed to a degree even though he was the "Revenge of the Sith" that reawoke the Sith Empire.

Thus why he decided to replace Vader with Luke instead of just turning Luke to the dark side. It was sort of ironic in a way. Vader wanted Luke turned to the Dark Side (secretly wanting to take him as his own apprentice and take over the Empire), but his request for Luke ended up giving the Emperor the idea to replace Vader with a better willed, more stronger apprentice who could carry on the banner of the Sith in a more fitting manner.

[Sidewinder]

Okay, we agree that Padme's death had broken Vader's will, but what about the children? Would a healthy Vader have attacked Obi-Wan when he returned to Padme's ship in a rescue attempt? If not, would he have sensed the children, and tried to find them-- in Sidious' eyes, wasted precious time on a personal errand while there are Jedi who must be purged-- or would he spend much of his time sulking in his room?

[Havok]

There are some assumptions that could be made...
1. Anakin, escaping his fate at Obi-Wans blade, would have gone back to Padme. Had she been there, he would have obvioulsy seen that she was not dead. What would he do then? She already said he was going down a path she could not follow. But at the same time she would have died regardless, for Anakin had already destroyed his link with her when he force choked her and caused whatever unforseen cause of death afflicted her. Now assuming she did die, he would know that he caused it and like in the movie would just be utterly defeated and succumb completely to the Emperor. Same outcome, more powerfull, armorless, Vader. Also see #3 since this version would have the twins in Anakins hands.

2. Anakin escapes his fate at Obi-Wan's blade, goes back for Padme and Obi-Wan beats him to her. She is gone. Anakin is REALLY pissed now. At this point her death would probably be seen in his mind as Obi-Wan's fault.
Using his anger, he attempts to retrieve Padme, but she is already dead, so he attacks Obi-Wan again. No high ground this time. Obi-Wan is toast. But the twins are still a secret, but no one to watch over them. Will Luke find his way to Yoda? Again. Vader, no armor and much more powerfull.

3. Above scenario, but Anakin finds the twins... Uh oh. Everyone is toast at this point.
Anakin and Palpatine raise the twins to be Sith. A reorder of Bane's rule of two? Who better to recind that decree then the Sith Master that now rules the galaxy and destroyed the Jedi. No new hope no striking back and definetly, no return.

Now as far as Anakin, dethroning Palpatine ala the Revenge of the Sith video game alternate ending... If Padme is dead he really doesn't have anything specific to get out of Sidious. At the same time Anakin is clearly power hungry. Does he allow Palpatine to teach him all his dark secrets? I think so. Also as strong as Anakin is, I don't think he was to the point to just turn on Palpatine. After all, second to using his love for Padme, Sidious used Anakins's loyalty to himself to turn him to the Dark Side.

I think like all Sith, he would learn all he could from Sidious including all his political tricks and when the time was right he would either kill him or Sidious would die. (Ignoring the whole EU cloning thing and all.)

Anakin's rule? Well at this point I assume the Jedi would be completly extinct. No Yoda, Obi-Wan or other random Jedi left either by Anakins own hand or through natural death. Two children trained in the ways of the Sith out and about to quell any chance of rebellion. As far as runing the Empire, it wouldn't take a lot of political manuevering to say "Do this or die." Two complete Death Stars at his command. I'd say the Sith would rule for a good long time.

[Molyneux]

2. Anakin escapes his fate at Obi-Wan's blade, goes back for Padme and Obi-Wan beats him to her. She is gone. Anakin is REALLY pissed now. At this point her death would probably be seen in his mind as Obi-Wan's fault.
Using his anger, he attempts to retrieve Padme, but she is already dead, so he attacks Obi-Wan again. No high ground this time. Obi-Wan is toast. But the twins are still a secret, but no one to watch over them. Will Luke find his way to Yoda? Again. Vader, no armor and much more powerfull.

I'm not too sure that Anakin could have beaten Obi-Wan in a straight-out fight at that point, high ground or no high ground...

[Havok]

I'm not too sure that Anakin could have beaten Obi-Wan in a straight-out fight at that point, high ground or no high ground...

How do you figure?

[Molyneux]

I'm not too sure that Anakin could have beaten Obi-Wan in a straight-out fight at that point, high ground or no high ground...

How do you figure?

Seeing as how Obi-Wan was able to hold his own against Anakin on Mustafar for an extended period of time, and (seeing as how he has a defensive style of combat) would probably not tire as quickly, I'd say that at that point Kenobi would be able to beat Anakin in the end. The "high ground" thing just made it quicker.

[Noble Ire]

Seeing as how Obi-Wan was able to hold his own against Anakin on Mustafar for an extended period of time, and (seeing as how he has a defensive style of combat) would probably not tire as quickly, I'd say that at that point Kenobi would be able to beat Anakin in the end. The "high ground" thing just made it quicker.

That's not how I saw it. Obi-Wan was on the defensive that entire fight, and if Anakin hadn't been so brash at the end, he would have eventually pushed through Obi-Wan's defenses.

[Molyneux]

Seeing as how Obi-Wan was able to hold his own against Anakin on Mustafar for an extended period of time, and (seeing as how he has a defensive style of combat) would probably not tire as quickly, I'd say that at that point Kenobi would be able to beat Anakin in the end. The "high ground" thing just made it quicker.

That's not how I saw it. Obi-Wan was on the defensive that entire fight, and if Anakin hadn't been so brash at the end, he would have eventually pushed through Obi-Wan's defenses.

My point is that Obi-Wan's entire style relies on him being on the defensive.
He adopts, if I'm not mistaken, an even more defensive style than Qui-gon did...the fact that Anakin had him backing off throughout the whole fight is not an indicator of Anakin's skill so much as Obi-Wan's fighting style.

Anakin, by being constantly aggressive, was expending much more energy throughout that fight than Obi-Wan. He would most likely have tired much sooner than Kenobi, and left himself open to a counterattack that (in his worn-out state) he would not have been able to avoid.

The only reason we do not see this happen is that Anakin has to act like a blooming idiot and get quadruplegicised by Obi-Wan, and cuts the fight short.

[Noble Ire]

My point is that Obi-Wan's entire style relies on him being on the defensive.
He adopts, if I'm not mistaken, an even more defensive style than Qui-gon did...the fact that Anakin had him backing off throughout the whole fight is not an indicator of Anakin's skill so much as Obi-Wan's fighting style.

Anakin, by being constantly aggressive, was expending much more energy throughout that fight than Obi-Wan. He would most likely have tired much sooner than Kenobi, and left himself open to a counterattack that (in his worn-out state) he would not have been able to avoid.

The only reason we do not see this happen is that Anakin has to act like a blooming idiot and get quadruplegicised by Obi-Wan, and cuts the fight short.

I know full well that Obi-Wan uses a defensive style, but how do you know that his falling back isn't more than a strategy, and that he's actually being bested? As is seen when they are forced to rest by the lava shower, both seem to be equally drained, despite the fact that Anakin is being more agressive. Not only is he naturally more powerful, although not more skilled, he has the Dark Side to draw strength from.

You may be right, but the simple fact that Obi-Wan used a defensive style does not mean that he was winning or would have one without the "High ground" bit.

[Cykeisme]

Hrm, I don't know if expending energy is as big an issue for Jedi and Sith as it is for regular people.

To be honest, I think the intensity and duration of the physical activity that Obi-Wan and Anakin were engaged in would have been downright exhausting, but they didn't really look tired at the end of the battle. They were still moving quickly and with precision even in the closing moments of the fight, even after the crazy running, jumping and fighting they'd been engaged in for ages.. I don't think normal swordsmen would be that composed after that much exertion.

I don't want to extrapolate too far, but the untiring nature of the Force users may have something to do with them drawing energy (both the hard physical meaning as well as the looser biological one) from the Force. Perhaps Anakin would not have tired, and the relentless nature of his assault would not have slowed down? Of course, Obi-Wan's defense would not have faltered, either.

[Darth Yoshi]

Perhaps, but remember that Anakin has a much greater Force reservoir than Obi-wan. Or at least, that's my understanding of Anakin being the most powerful Jedi in the Republic. He has a greater reservoir and can use more of it at any given time. All else being equal, Obi-wan will tire in the Force long before Anakin.