Animal consciousness...Are they really THAT different?

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Post by Duckie »

Zero132132 wrote: This chimp wasn't, I imagine, largely part of our society, and had likely never heard such comparisons. I don't understand why a chimp would have the same notions of death as I do if he isn't part of the same society that I am... although I suppose I don't know that this is the case. Even so, it seems quite odd.
He can still sleep, and close his eyes. Especially considering both of our primary senses are sight, this would be a particularly eminent way to visualize it without getting into the more complicated "can't move, can't think, can't see or hear or touch or feel or smell" idea.

Hell, I could even draw parallels from religious belief in Heaven to dreaming while asleep, or primal fear of the darkness, btu then I'd be getting all sociological and I'd be mostly spewing bullshit.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

I just can't believe the gall to say: Hurting animals is not, and should not be immoral.

How can anyone say that so bluntly? He's also only 19 by his profile info and he's in Israel. I'm wondering if there's a chance he has some kind of religious bullshit clogging his brain about humans NOT being animals and this is why he's being such a jackass.

What the hell IS "survival instinct" as to sentience?

Can you just point at an animal and declare ALL their actions to be survival instinct with absolutely no behaviour indicative of "knowing" who they are?

The problem here is I'm not really sure how science approaches this subject and the current consensus on this topic. Google doesn't seem to be bringing up what I'm looking for...
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Post by Zero »

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The great majority of mankind, our actions, our ideas, are really just part of an insanely complex mating ritual. Survival instinct is something that's in people, too.
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Post by Duckie »

All of mankind's social skills are a type of survival skill, anyway- Do this or you do not "survive" in polite company and reproduce. Don't do this or you go to jail. Don't do this etc.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Has he never owned a dog? Anyone who has ever owned and raised a dog knows full well that dogs are aware of their own existance and have distinct unique personalities all their own. They are by no means geniuses, but they aren't mindless drones at all.
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Post by Molyneux »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:
outcast wrote:seems this chap has never heard of Bonobo's, widely regarded as the second most intelligent species on the planet. I've seen documentaries on them, where they've been taught a kind of pictoral language with somewhere around 500 words (and they have been known to creatively combine words to denote new things they encounter), in one instance handlers asked one of them what death would be like, and the bonobo replied that it was like being alone in a dark cave. that requires a pretty advanced ability for abstract thought and the ability to imagine a situation other than the one they are currently experiencing. which is ofcourse, extremely impressive.
Now i just want to say as i was reading this, that this info reallys truck me. Highlighted part especially. Wow, that is...i mean, isnt that completely sentient? I mean that is really startling to read. :shock:
Yep. They're intelligent on a par with a human child...
They're not full human-level, but they are unequivocally sentient to a significant degree.
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Post by anybody_mcc »

maybe this could be answer to his original statement :
As someone already stated we are also "advanced programmed bio-robots" . He said that hurting animals is not immoral because they are such bio-robots , so hurting humans is not immoral too then.
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Post by Rye »

Molyneux wrote:In addition to all the above -

Humans are not the only species on Earth to have passed several of the tests for sentience.

Chimpanzees, dolphins (and possibly parrots) have passed the mirror test.
Chimpanzees, dolphins and parrots can all learn speech (as well as gorillas, apparently); they may not have developed it independently as of yet, but they possess the capability to understand and utilize it.
They've evolved their own languages. There are even some trees in Africa that house 3 species of monkey, all with their own languages, including nouns and adjectives. So like the ones in the middle would spot a snake on the ground, and the monkeys that live in the lower branches that venture out on to land to get food would hear the other language and react to it. Likewise if some on the bottom spotted an eagle, they'd shout it and the ones at the top would understand and rush deep into the branches.

So yeah, it's flat out wrong to say they haven't evolved their own languages.
Chimpanzees and dolphins have also shown the propensity for learned tool use (termite-gathering sticks for chimpanzees, sponges to protect their beaks for dolphins).
Yes, birds like crows also do this.
Humans may be the only species that has passed all three tests completely - we're the only species known to have developed language without outside prompting, for one - but we're far from the only species to have a high degree of self-awareness.
This is wrong, for the above reasons.
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Post by The Guid »

Can you ask this person what his opinion is of causing pain to the mentally retarded members of humanity who might not have self awareness?

By the way, £50 says he's a Christian.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Can you ask this person what his opinion is of causing pain to the mentally retarded members of humanity who might not have self awareness?
I could, but quite honestly I can tell by his viewpoint that he would argue that self-awareness MUST exist somewhere because they are human.
By the way, £50 says he's a Christian.
I'm right with ya. I thought the same thing. :)

He hasn't admitted to it though. I tried to get a response on that angle and he ignored it. Very telling in itself...
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Post by Molyneux »

Rye wrote:
Molyneux wrote:In addition to all the above -

Humans are not the only species on Earth to have passed several of the tests for sentience.

Chimpanzees, dolphins (and possibly parrots) have passed the mirror test.
Chimpanzees, dolphins and parrots can all learn speech (as well as gorillas, apparently); they may not have developed it independently as of yet, but they possess the capability to understand and utilize it.
They've evolved their own languages. There are even some trees in Africa that house 3 species of monkey, all with their own languages, including nouns and adjectives. So like the ones in the middle would spot a snake on the ground, and the monkeys that live in the lower branches that venture out on to land to get food would hear the other language and react to it. Likewise if some on the bottom spotted an eagle, they'd shout it and the ones at the top would understand and rush deep into the branches.

So yeah, it's flat out wrong to say they haven't evolved their own languages.
There is a distinction between the ability to communicate using sound and an actual, bona fide language; for one thing, language has grammar and more than just 'nouns and adjectives'. A language must have past and future tense (or some other way of expressing a situation other than the present) - that's why development of one is taken to be a sign of intelligence and sentience, because it shows that the creatures using it have the ability to think abstractly.
Chimpanzees and dolphins have also shown the propensity for learned tool use (termite-gathering sticks for chimpanzees, sponges to protect their beaks for dolphins).
Yes, birds like crows also do this.
Is it learned tool use, or instinctive?
Humans may be the only species that has passed all three tests completely - we're the only species known to have developed language without outside prompting, for one - but we're far from the only species to have a high degree of self-awareness.
This is wrong, for the above reasons.
No it ain't, from the above refutations.
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Post by Trytostaydead »

I think the word "pain" is vague in this context. You can argue a lot of things below the animal order feel "pain." Just pain isn't expressed as closely to human pain.
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Post by NecronLord »

Molyneux wrote: Is it learned tool use, or instinctive?
Corvids posess some of the most sophisticated brains known. Outside of primates and cetaceans, the raven is just about the most intelligent thing on Earth. Their mastery of human language after is known to exceed that of African Grey parrots, they are believed to have their own 'languages' that can be learnt by humans*, and they are able to creatively develop solutions to problems.

And no, it's not instinctive, unless you can explain an inbuilt instinct that would tell them to find crossroads and drop hard nuts there to get humans to run them over in cars. They're really fantastic and awesome birds.

* Supposedly- the few people who claim to have deciphered this usually refuse to share 'crow calls' due to people hunting crows.
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Post by Rye »

Molyneux wrote: There is a distinction between the ability to communicate using sound and an actual, bona fide language; for one thing, language has grammar and more than just 'nouns and adjectives'. A language must have past and future tense (or some other way of expressing a situation other than the present) - that's why development of one is taken to be a sign of intelligence and sentience, because it shows that the creatures using it have the ability to think abstractly.
Where's this definition of language from, exactly? The definition I was using from here is:
1. Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols.
2. Such a system including its rules for combining its components, such as words.
3. Such a system as used by a nation, people, or other distinct community; often contrasted with dialect.
1. A system of signs, symbols, gestures, or rules used in communicating: the language of algebra.


Now, with the monkeys in africa, you've got nouns relating to real life predators, and you've got adjectives, that is, context-dependent descriptions defining where they're coming from, along sometimes with verbs like "run" and "stop". It's certainly an ordered system, and it's certainly deliberate "complex" communication at any rate.

Apes brought up in isolation can lose the ability to communicate with their bretheren, and communicate only with humans through things like sign language, with messages conveying anticipation. Apes in the wild have their speicific communication types, and invent new symbols. They can comprehend and produce novel prepositional phrases, understand vocal English, translate words into ASL and even transmit their signing skills to the next generation without human intervention.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Gustav32Vasa wrote:Darkness = the unknown.
And darkness (or at least how the ape defines it) = zero sensory stimulus as well as zero brain function and shit.


Oh, and Justforfun, ask the guy this: "Is Koko the gorilla not self-aware when she asks you, through American Sign Language, that she's hungry and wants a banana? Is she not self-aware when she says that she recognizes herself in the mirror?"
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Post by Molyneux »

Rye wrote:
Molyneux wrote: There is a distinction between the ability to communicate using sound and an actual, bona fide language; for one thing, language has grammar and more than just 'nouns and adjectives'. A language must have past and future tense (or some other way of expressing a situation other than the present) - that's why development of one is taken to be a sign of intelligence and sentience, because it shows that the creatures using it have the ability to think abstractly.
Where's this definition of language from, exactly? The definition I was using from here is:
1. Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols.
2. Such a system including its rules for combining its components, such as words.
3. Such a system as used by a nation, people, or other distinct community; often contrasted with dialect.
1. A system of signs, symbols, gestures, or rules used in communicating: the language of algebra.


Now, with the monkeys in africa, you've got nouns relating to real life predators, and you've got adjectives, that is, context-dependent descriptions defining where they're coming from, along sometimes with verbs like "run" and "stop". It's certainly an ordered system, and it's certainly deliberate "complex" communication at any rate.

Apes brought up in isolation can lose the ability to communicate with their bretheren, and communicate only with humans through things like sign language, with messages conveying anticipation. Apes in the wild have their speicific communication types, and invent new symbols. They can comprehend and produce novel prepositional phrases, understand vocal English, translate words into ASL and even transmit their signing skills to the next generation without human intervention.
Hm...maybe they do have developed language, then.
It's still not on the level of human language, though, if it can only deal with the present.
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Well, ape minds, at least the ones raised in captivity with humans and taught ASL, have been known to grasp past, present and future stuff. With some difficulty, but the point is they can grasp that stuff.

I saw it on National Geographic.
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Post by Rye »

Molyneux wrote: Hm...maybe they do have developed language, then.
It's still not on the level of human language, though, if it can only deal with the present.
Obviously, human communication is a very specialised thing, so it's unlikely that other animals would replicate it entirely. Anyway, this whole thing just reminded me of an article posted a while ago:
Life without numbers in a unique Amazon tribe

Piraha apparently can't learn to count and have no distinct words for colours

By STEPHEN STRAUSS
Friday, August 20, 2004 - Page A3
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... TPScience/

1+1=2. Mathematics doesn't get any more basic than this, but even 1+1 would stump the brightest minds among the Piraha tribe of the Amazon.

A study appearing today in the journal Science reports that the hunter-gatherers seem to be the only group of humans known to have no concept of numbering and counting.

Not only that, but adult Piraha apparently can't learn to count or understand the concept of numbers or numerals, even when they asked anthropologists to teach them and have been given basic math lessons for months at a time.

Their lack of enumeration skills is just one of the mental and cultural traits that has led scientists who have visited the 300 members of the tribe to describe the Piraha as "something from Mars."

Daniel Everett, an American linguistic anthropologist, has been studying and living with Piraha for 27 years.

Besides living a numberless life, he reports in a separate study prepared for publication, the Piraha are the only people known to have no distinct words for colours.

They have no written language, and no collective memory going back more than two generations. They don't sleep for more than two hours at a time during the night or day.

Even when food is available, they frequently starve themselves and their children, Prof. Everett reports.

They communicate almost as much by singing, whistling and humming as by normal speech.

They frequently change their names, because they believe spirits regularly take them over and intrinsically change who they are.

They do not believe that outsiders understand their language even after they have just carried on conversations with them.

They have no creation myths, tell no fictional stories and have no art. All of their pronouns appear to be borrowed from a neighbouring language.

Their lack of numbering terms and skills is highlighted in a report by Columbia University cognitive psychologist Peter Gordon that appears today in Science.

Intrigued by anecdotal reports that Prof. Everett and his wife Keren had presented about the mathlessness of Piraha life, Prof. Gordon conducted a number of experiments over a three-year period.

He found that a group of male tribe members -- women and children were not involved because of certain cultural taboos -- could not perform the most elementary mathematical operations.

When faced with a line of batteries and asked to duplicate the number they saw, the men could not get beyond two or three before starting to make mistakes.

They had difficulty drawing straight lines to copy a number of lines they were presented with. They couldn't remember which of two boxes had more or less fish symbols on it, even when they were about to be rewarded for their knowledge.

A significant part of the difficulty related to their number-impoverished vocabulary.

Although they would say one word to indicate a single thing and another for two things, those words didn't necessarily mean one or two in any usual sense. "It is more like oneish and twoish," Prof. Gordon said in an interview.

Prof. Everett, who now teaches at the University of Manchester in England and who unlike Prof. Gordon is a fluent Piraha-speaker, takes issue even with the "ishness" of the Piraha numbers.

"The word he [Gordon] translates as 'one' means just a relatively small amount, the word for 'two' means a relatively bigger amount," he said in an interview from Brazil.

Prof. Everett points out that when the Piraha are talking and use the "oneish" word to talk about something such as fish, you can't tell whether they are describing a single fish, a small fish, or one or two fish.

Linguists and anthropologists who have seen both the Everett and Gordon studies are flabbergasted by the tribe's strangeness, particularly since the Piraha have not lived in total isolation.

The tribe, which lives on a tributary river to the Amazon, has been in contact with other Brazilians for 200 years and regularly sells nuts to, and shares their women with, Brazilian traders who stop by.

"Why they have been resistant to adopting Western number systems is beyond me," Ray Jackendoff of Brandeis University, a past president of the Linguistic Society of America, said in an interview.

Prof. Gordon said the findings are perhaps the strongest evidence for a once largely discredited linguistic theory.

More than 60 years ago, amateur linguist Benjamin Lee Whorf argued that learning a specific language determined the nature and content of how you think.

That theory fell into intellectual disrepute after linguist Noam Chomsky's notions of a universal human grammar and Harvard University professor Steven Pinker's idea of a universal language instinct became widely accepted.

"The question is, is there any case where not having words for something doesn't allow you to think about it?" Prof. Gordon asked about the Piraha and the Whorfian thesis. "I think this is a case for just that."

Prof. Everett argues that what the Piraha case demonstrates is a fundamental cultural principle working itself out in language and behaviour.

The principle is that the Piraha see themselves as intrinsically different from, and better than, the people around them; everything they do is to prevent them from being like anyone else or being absorbed into the wider world. One of the ways they do this is by not abstracting anything: numbers, colours, or future events.

"This is the reason why the Piraha have survived as Piraha while tribes around them have been absorbed into Brazilian culture," Prof. Everett said.

Nevertheless, the Piraha's lives and lifestyles are so strange that other anthropologists have raised the question of whether inbreeding -- their lack of number skills apparently makes it difficult for the Piraha to identify kin -- has resulted in a tribe of intellectually handicapped people.

Both Prof. Everett and Prof. Gordon say that they have seen no examples of this and that the Pirahas' fishing, hunting and even joking skills seem equal to those of people elsewhere.
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Post by LMSx »

The principle is that the Piraha see themselves as intrinsically different from, and better than, the people around them; everything they do is to prevent them from being like anyone else or being absorbed into the wider world. One of the ways they do this is by not abstracting anything: numbers, colours, or future events.
Whatever happened to the good old days of proving that you were a superior culture through military conquest? :) What a sad culture. Pretty obvious that their isolation in the Amazon has kept them alive, otherwise they'd be quickly destroyed by rival tribes featuring the superior cultural advance of......numbers...
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Post by Lusankya »

Rye wrote: Where's this definition of language from, exactly?
Linguists have certain criteria to describe language, based on certain criteria such as cultural transmission, syntax... I forget what the others are. However, these criteria have been tested on animals, and the animals that 'scored' the highest were dolphins, although they still didn't score high enough to have their communication considered to be a language (althogh IIRC, their score increased dramatically as our recording software improved and we could actually hear more of their speech, some of which was too fast for the microphones to actually register before.)

Still, it's ridiculous to say that the ability to use language is of paramount importance to self-awareness. Animals might be stupid compared to humans, but they're not silly. They know who they are (themself) and what they want (what the 'mum' is eating), and they're smart enough to realise that a tsunami's coming and run away from it, because they don't want to die.
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Post by wolveraptor »

They don't sleep for more than two hours at a time during the night or day...Even when food is available, they frequently starve themselves and their children, Prof. Everett reports...Nevertheless, the Piraha's lives and lifestyles are so strange that other anthropologists have raised the question of whether inbreeding -- their lack of number skills apparently makes it difficult for the Piraha to identify kin -- has resulted in a tribe of intellectually handicapped people.

Both Prof. Everett and Prof. Gordon say that they have seen no examples of this and that the Pirahas' fishing, hunting and even joking skills seem equal to those of people elsewhere.
How the hell can humans even survive on 2 hrs of sleep. Jebus knows I've tried, but ya just can't do it. It would seem that all of the insomnia, inbreeding and starvation would produce a pretty damn stupid people. Perhaps their fishing and hunting skills are somewhat visceral/imprinted strongly at a young age.

But stupid people can't joke...then again this is an unquantifiable behavior. I can't say that they have, on the whole, better or worse jokes than tribe X.
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Post by Lusankya »

I just remembered - humans who have been isolated from other humans for a length of time, particularly if it's during their language-development stage, lose the ability to communicate. My linguistics text-book described a real-life "Tarzan" or "Jungle Boy", who had been living alone since he was less than ten. He only ended up learning about ten words.

By the "mental ability to speak = self-awareness" argument, then this human would not have had self-awareness.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Oh, and Justforfun, ask the guy this: "Is Koko the gorilla not self-aware when she asks you, through American Sign Language, that she's hungry and wants a banana? Is she not self-aware when she says that she recognizes herself in the mirror?"
\

Oh for the record, he conceded for higher animals. :)
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Post by wolveraptor »

Lusankya wrote:I just remembered - humans who have been isolated from other humans for a length of time, particularly if it's during their language-development stage, lose the ability to communicate. My linguistics text-book described a real-life "Tarzan" or "Jungle Boy", who had been living alone since he was less than ten. He only ended up learning about ten words.

By the "mental ability to speak = self-awareness" argument, then this human would not have had self-awareness.
Who says all humans do? There have been cases of babies who were, sickeningly, locked in dungeons for their entire childhood, all the way up to 22, who were never encouraged to walk, never intellectually stimulated, and never knew anything beyond their room, sleep and eating. The case dispelled any and all notions of humans having "inborn knowledge."
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Post by Lusankya »

I thought we were talking about self-awareness, not knowledge.

I was just giving another suggestion as to why the inability to learn language doesn't necessarily correlate to a person not having self-awareness.
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Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
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