Would you abort a Down's Syndrome child?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

My question was how you would feel if you aborted because your doctor told you that the child was gonna have downs syndrome, and later found out that the doctor was wrong, how would you feel when you found out that you aborted a perfectly healthy child. I'm also asking how one who wanted children would feel, I'm not directing this question at people who would have had an accident which conceived their child, I'm directing it at people who would have planned to have a child.

Here's my technical question. I decide to abort the embryo. The aborted baby is thrown into the bin. Who's going to reinvestigate the embryo in the trash and find out someone screwed up? Who is going to tell me and why is that guy going to tell me? Does he think I feel just great about all this and want to dampen my spirits?

If you hadn't gone for a second opinion on something this big, you are merely, to be honest, an idiot, and have nothing but yourself to kick.

Anyway, if I've made a reasonable attempt to confirm the Down's Syndrome (I got the second opinion and did all the tests), well, one can only go with what he knows, right? It won't feel too good. Any incorrect decision does that to you, of course. But that's no excuse to not abort the baby given the information you have. Read P.2 and find my first post - when I made my decision, I already knew that I've eliminated a chance that it might all work out. I give it up for the much greater probability that the abort would be more merciful for everyone.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yes, without question.

[Pezzoni]

Yes, certainly.
First of all, I personally can't consider a fetus that early on in the pregnancy a 'person', and therefore wouldn't have any issue with an abortion at that time in any case, and secondly there is the inevitable low quality of life on behalf of the child, and indeed the effects of having to care for a person with Down's on me, and the rest of my family.

[Danny Bhoy]

Abortion.

While I'd like to think me and my hypothetical wife could cope with bringing up a child with DS, I know it's not bloody likely that we could (not the woman I want to marry at any rate), and I don't want to have the child and then confirm that I couldn't hack it.

[Darth Wong]

Oh for fuck's sake, the reason why I would be furious with a doctor who gave me a faulty diagnosis of Down's Syndrome leading to an abortion is my pain, suffering, and emotional distress, not that of the unthinking and unfeeling fetus. The fact that someone supports abortion rights does not mean that he has to dogmatically deny any and all emotional and physical impact of an abortion on the parents. An unnecessary abortion means physical pain and suffering (an abortion is not a trivial event for the mother), and most of all, it means a lifetime of wondering what that child would have been like. While the fetus itself feels and thinks nothing, that has no bearing whatsoever on what the mother will be thinking and feeling, and she would be devastated if this happened.

A dream is ephemeral; it has no rights and no feelings. But take away someone's dream, and you have hurt him incalculably. That's what happens if you perform an abortion on someone against her will, and it's what happens if you cause her to have an abortion she would not have otherwise had, as a result of medical incompetence.

[R. U. Serious]

To the extent that they will have virtually no chance of leading a non-dependent life and reproducing, which is what I want to give my kids as good a chance of doing as possible, yes they are failures.

"non-dependent life and reproducing"? That's a very problematic way of describing the essence of your decision. AFAIK people with Down-syndrome can still reproduce. I think I remember (though I'm not 100% sure) two people with down syndrome getting married and being urged by everyone around them to become sterilized, but they refused to, since they wanted to become parents.
And "non-dependant life" is also very wishy-washy, they are independant in that they can do all the physical stuff necessary for living. But they might well (I'm no expert, please correct me) have problems "functioning well" within the expectations of society. Personally I just don't think that's a good measure.

And is that justification for preventing them to live?

It’s not a justification for killing somebody but as we’re talking first trimester whilst the foetus with downs may have homo-sapien dna it certainly isn’t yet human so this isn’t a problem.

And note that I also didn't talk about killing, but about preventing them to live. I guess I just feel uncomfortable, because of what this means to people that do live with that condition or are in need of support for some other reason. It looks and feels like Discrimination toward a certain kind of people, though of course the only direct impact your act has, is on a foetus and not a human.

Isn't this dangerously close to dividing humans into categories labeled "worth living" and "not worth living"?

No it isn’t because we’re talking about 1st trimester foetuses not humans, nobody here has advocated killing people with downs, there is no slippery slope here quit trying to imply one.

I didn't say anyone advocated killing, don't put words in my mouth. You preference that you would accept a healthy child, but wouldn't want a child with down to be born, implies that you are deciding (for your own offspring) by that single characteristic wether they are worth to live or not. I am not talking about killing. And I don't have a problem with abortions, I am only wondering about certain motives for abortions.

Down's Syndrome sufferers can actually lead somewhat normal lives in occaisional cases. No, it isn't justification for preventing a child to live, at all... life is life is life.

Which “child” is this? Didn’t you read the OP it quite clearly stated that this is a 1st trimester foetus

The child that would have lived, but didn't. I think you are the one confusing the term "preventing to live" with killing a living child - do you think the term "preventing to live" is worng?
And before you misinterpret what I am saying: I am well aware that there are lots of very harmless acts that in consequence lead to "prevention of live", and I don't have a problem with them, including abortion.
For me, I think it's just the motive for abortion in this dilemma that I feel uncomfortable with. For example when you say:

if I’d want to dedicate my life to a child with some condition or other

I have no problem with that reasoning. After all I could imagine that most people that consider or do an abortion have reasons along similar lines (not being able to take care of a child, the way they think is necessary).

[Fleet Admiral JD]

I'm in the group of selfish people, appearantly. I simply would not want to play caretaker for the rest of my life. Let's face it; a fully-developed human is more than a fetus.

[Max]

Why do some sperm carry the extra chromosome that causes Downs? Is that just a simple mutation?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

"non-dependent life and reproducing"? That's a very problematic way of describing the essence of your decision. AFAIK people with Down-syndrome can still reproduce. I think I remember (though I'm not 100% sure) two people with down syndrome getting married and being urged by everyone around them to become sterilized, but they refused to, since they wanted to become parents.

Yes, they are fertile, but that's about it. Reproducing also includes the ability to support the children on your own, which in this society generally requires at least average intelligence (and some luck), even assuming normal children with no significant problems.

And let's not forget the factor that the kids may also have Down Syndrome, which makes the difficulty of raising them at all well above the norm.

And "non-dependant life" is also very wishy-washy, they are independant in that they can do all the physical stuff necessary for living.

By "all the physical stuff", are you restricting it to things like breathing? Yes, they breathe, and eat too. Other than that there are few guarantees.

But they might well (I'm no expert, please correct me) have problems "functioning well" within the expectations of society. Personally I just don't think that's a good measure.

Occasionally, it works. However, few Down Syndrome children has an IQ over about 60. Society is the human version of nature. Nature doesn't get any kinder just because the animal is weak and dumb - they just die. Society isn't all that much kinder. It is hard enough to live in it when you are close to the norm.

And note that I also didn't talk about killing, but about preventing them to live. I guess I just feel uncomfortable, because of what this means to people that do live with that condition or are in need of support for some other reason. It looks and feels like Discrimination toward a certain kind of people, though of course the only direct impact your act has, is on a foetus and not a human.

Discrimination is not always bad. It is a "loaded word" because it is often associated with discrimination that has no direct bearing on ability. For example, sexual discrimination is generally bad. However, if the job is highly strength demanding, an argument can be made for it because of the high improbability that women would up to it (sure, sometimes, there is a strong woman too, but statistically the odds are against it).

In this case, the criteria is "ability to succeed in life". Down Syndrome gives you a low probability. So does being born with all limbs crippled, or being blind and deaf at the same time ... etc. In such scenarios, it is arguably more merciful and beneficial for everyone to just terminate this early. Sure, sometimes it works out...

I didn't say anyone advocated killing, don't put words in my mouth. You preference that you would accept a healthy child, but wouldn't want a child with down to be born, implies that you are deciding (for your own offspring) by that single characteristic wether they are worth to live or not. I am not talking about killing. And I don't have a problem with abortions, I am only wondering about certain motives for abortions.

It is honestly a much better motive than most.