Starwars vs. Dune

[Ghost Rider]

From what I recall the Baron just wanted to melt them down <shrug> I was under the impression the Baron was using the artillery to seal the men in caves since he said it was so predictable that the Duke's men would run into the caves thus not having to fight them, because didn't he say something about how funny it was bringing back artillery in the age of shields? But it could also be artillery could kill men using personal shields by sheer concussion?

I presumed that part the the sheer blast is what kills them, since Herbert gives nothing more then such.

If I remember, a massive storm took out the shields around the emperor's fortress.. or something like that, the shields were not up.

The shields were only partially up, around the main ship and that the nose was shot.

The Outer shield fell, but they give no idea of what really did it, wit being the storm that they allowed to pass into or weapons fire. The storm primary reason was simply to mask the use of atomics, against the shield wall fixature.

From what I recall the artillery was used against the Atreides soldiers to trap them in the caves. Nothing was said about the artillery being able to kill someone who is shielded. Sheilds were not used in the open desert partly because static electricity generated by the wind against the sand could disrupt shields. Another reason is that an active shield generator drives sandworms crazy and they will converge on it.

Which is why I stated

Rabban specifically asks for them to use in hunting the Fremen and the Baron denies them and says specifically since they are not shielded, it's uneeded to have them anyway.

Odd that Baron makes note that the opponent have no shields instead of reinforcing his eariler statement of "No, we need the metal, now drop it!"

[RThurmont]

Dune vs. Star Wars is a fascinating yet hugely irrelevant technological comparison, in my opinion.

The technology between the two series seem to have evolved in different directions. In Dune, we see a general horror of computerization and a lack of widespread computer usage, although the few illegal computer systems that are displayed are highly sophisticated. We also see a proliferation of technological devices that could be regarded, at best, as being irrelevant, in the Star Wars galaxy, such as "No Rooms", "No Ships" and shielding that as far as I can tell serves no purpose but to force protagonist into using elegant hand-to-hand combat techniques instead of boring projectile or beam weapons exchanges.

One such example of the incongrous nature of the technology platforms of the consecutive galaxies is the Guild ship, capable of instantaneous galactic travel with the help of a human deformed into some bizarre slug like creature that resembles Jabba. The Guild ships, if I am interpreting the material correctly, would offer the Dune forces speed superiority over the Empire, yet one wonders if they could survive combat with an ISD, for example. The technology is oriented into different areas-the focus in Dune seems to be on planetary, versus spatial combat, in marked contrast to the combined nature of Star Wars combat or the almost purely spatial nature of Star Trek combat.

A much more interesting debate would be about the enhanced human capabilities in Dune versus those in Star Wars. How would the various "weirdlings" like the Bene Gesserit, Mentats, and so forth compare with Jedi and Sith in terms of intellectual ability? Would the "human computer" capability of some elements in the Dune universe fully compensate against the sophistication of Imperial automation, where sentient robots and computer systems of amazing complexity perform a huge amount of the infrastructural work required to support the Empire? Finally, how would such enhanced fanatic military forces such as the Fremen, Sardaukar, and Fish Speakers fare in combat with Jedi?

In any event, one could surely enjoy seeing the vile Baron Harkonnen being zapped to death by Palpatine or telekinetically strangled by Vader.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Dune Encyclopedia says

"His [Yware's] home world ' was a hollow planetoid circling Fallow Eight it had a population of approximately ten thousand and took only three hydrogen warheads before it split open"

That seems to show that the Atomics are fairly powerful.

So quantify it.

[Ender]

As for the turbolasers, Holtzman shields in Paul's Dune simply don't overheat. 10,000 years prior, the very new holtman shields on the fleet surrounding Corrin held against a 16 hour nuclear and projectile bombardment from the machine fleet.

All that means is that the reradiated energy at a greater rate then it was applied, not that they just can't overheat. If we know thier weapons yields and firing rate it would be helpful. But we don't.

As for the holtzman shields being effected buy blasters/turbolasers, in The Butlerian Jihad the Holtzman effect is explained at length. It can be used for many purposes, the first of which was planetary shielding which destroyed any circuitry that passed through it. Second, it could be used to capture light in a cohesive ball. Third is repulsors, the Holtzman effect can be used to create a null or antigravity field, Fourth is the Shields used in Dune. I dont see the shields as absorbing energy as much as nullifying particals that touch it.

Ok, lets got from there - its inteaction with the atmosphere ionizes it enough that ungrounded objects hitting it would get a massive static discharge, This would cook the circuits. The captuing light thing makes zero sense and would require more details to attemlt to explain. Repulsors make sense to attempt to slow down/deflect light incoming projectilesl though the ionization effect mentioned would ahock the craop out of them too. You explanation for their mechanism requires a violation of the law of conservation of energy (I assume you are either still young or had no physics schooling), the absorption - reradiation one does not.

In The Butlerian Jihad and The Battle of Corrin it shows prototype personal shields absorbing both plasma and in the case of the first ever Holtzman shield, a hand grenade.

No suprise there - both are low energy low intensity applications of energy and the shrapnel would be deflected by the repyulsors.

IIRC the only time the shields have actually failed has been in the event of actual hardware malfunction.

Which simply means that their dissipation rate was greater then the application rate, not that they can't fail or violate CoE.

As for the Laser point, it is never fully explained, but allusions are made by Norra Cenva that the equations wouldnt solve if energy entered the field at C. It wasnt based on the amount of heat it produced.

Might have something to do with the inharent properties of a laser that make them so energy inefficient.

[Zorak]

Dune vs. Star Wars is a fascinating yet hugely irrelevant technological comparison, in my opinion.

The technology between the two series seem to have evolved in different directions. In Dune, we see a general horror of computerization and a lack of widespread computer usage, although the few illegal computer systems that are displayed are highly sophisticated. We also see a proliferation of technological devices that could be regarded, at best, as being irrelevant, in the Star Wars galaxy, such as "No Rooms", "No Ships" and shielding that as far as I can tell serves no purpose but to force protagonist into using elegant hand-to-hand combat techniques instead of boring projectile or beam weapons exchanges.

One such example of the incongrous nature of the technology platforms of the consecutive galaxies is the Guild ship, capable of instantaneous galactic travel with the help of a human deformed into some bizarre slug like creature that resembles Jabba. The Guild ships, if I am interpreting the material correctly, would offer the Dune forces speed superiority over the Empire, yet one wonders if they could survive combat with an ISD, for example. The technology is oriented into different areas-the focus in Dune seems to be on planetary, versus spatial combat, in marked contrast to the combined nature of Star Wars combat or the almost purely spatial nature of Star Trek combat.

A much more interesting debate would be about the enhanced human capabilities in Dune versus those in Star Wars. How would the various "weirdlings" like the Bene Gesserit, Mentats, and so forth compare with Jedi and Sith in terms of intellectual ability? Would the "human computer" capability of some elements in the Dune universe fully compensate against the sophistication of Imperial automation, where sentient robots and computer systems of amazing complexity perform a huge amount of the infrastructural work required to support the Empire? Finally, how would such enhanced fanatic military forces such as the Fremen, Sardaukar, and Fish Speakers fare in combat with Jedi?

In any event, one could surely enjoy seeing the vile Baron Harkonnen being zapped to death by Palpatine or telekinetically strangled by Vader.

No-Ships shielding aren't just from psychics, they are also literally shielded in terms of sensors and visual sight (meaning it is COMPLETELY invisible). They are invisible pretty much from all detection, and layered with guns (no idea if Las Guns or conventional weaponry, we just know it was covered with enough guns that it could be used as a warmachine and that it was a pain in the ass for Miles Teg and his acquired forces to take. No-Ships have computers powerful enough to serve as Guild Navigators (with some prediction systems/ some prescient vision, likely connected to the external conflicts outside the Imperium lands (the free Gholas). So basically, we got ships here that can predict threats, travel distances either instantly or really really really fast, are covered with guns, and are invisible to EVERY form of possible detection. And I have no idea if they have to be visible to use their weaponry or not...

I would think the Bene Gesserit would compare to the Jedi somewhat in intelligence, in fighting ability who knows. If the Mandalorians were able to put up a good fight against the Jedi, and Jedi do use melee weapons, perahps. It depends if we grant the Gesserit some sort of beam resistant melee weapons.

And on the Mentats... living computers have an advantage over the mechanical ones in Star Wars in that their creativity and possibility for unique calculation and solving new problems in the process never experienced before is high. The Mentats aren't just a fallbehind from the Butlerian Jihad, they're an improvement.

I could see this happening... No-Ship pulls up on Star Destroyer. Manages to slip a couple Gholas aboard. Gholas steal someone's appearance (perhaps memories with the new ones), kills them, and destroys the ship from the inside. The Star Wars galaxy beyond Jedi has no way of detecting Gholas. They're simply not as well trained in the ways of the body. Not to mention we're shown that in comparison to normal humans, humans in Dune from the God Emperor beyond are basically enhanced through genetics and training. One would consider Idaho a very skilled warrior by our standards, but in God Emperor of Dune he is just kicked in the ass by Moneo who basically shows that Idaho is physically just inferior. Moneo was faster, stronger, and had a much greater reaction time. And hundreds upon hundreds years later, in Chapterhouse...

[Ghost Rider]

No-Ships shielding aren't just from psychics, they are also literally shielded in terms of sensors and visual sight (meaning it is COMPLETELY invisible). They are invisible pretty much from all detection, and layered with guns (no idea if Las Guns or conventional weaponry, we just know it was covered with enough guns that it could be used as a warmachine and that it was a pain in the ass for Miles Teg and his acquired forces to take. No-Ships have computers powerful enough to serve as Guild Navigators (with some prediction systems/ some prescient vision, likely connected to the external conflicts outside the Imperium lands (the free Gholas). So basically, we got ships here that can predict threats, travel distances either instantly or really really really fast, are covered with guns, and are invisible to EVERY form of possible detection. And I have no idea if they have to be visible to use their weaponry or not...

Which means what exactly other then sounding that they are violating CoE in some way so to sound hard to get at.

I would think the Bene Gesserit would compare to the Jedi somewhat in intelligence, in fighting ability who knows. If the Mandalorians were able to put up a good fight against the Jedi, and Jedi do use melee weapons, perahps. It depends if we grant the Gesserit some sort of beam resistant melee weapons.

Mandalorians also tended in the latter eras to use extreme amounts of firepower against the Jedi.

And on the Mentats... living computers have an advantage over the mechanical ones in Star Wars in that their creativity and possibility for unique calculation and solving new problems in the process never experienced before is high. The Mentats aren't just a fallbehind from the Butlerian Jihad, they're an improvement.

Show a mentant out performing R2.

I could see this happening... No-Ship pulls up on Star Destroyer. Manages to slip a couple Gholas aboard. Gholas steal someone's appearance (perhaps memories with the new ones), kills them, and destroys the ship from the inside. The Star Wars galaxy beyond Jedi has no way of detecting Gholas. They're simply not as well trained in the ways of the body. Not to mention we're shown that in comparison to normal humans, humans in Dune from the God Emperor beyond are basically enhanced through genetics and training. One would consider Idaho a very skilled warrior by our standards, but in God Emperor of Dune he is just kicked in the ass by Moneo who basically shows that Idaho is physically just inferior. Moneo was faster, stronger, and had a much greater reaction time. And hundreds upon hundreds years later, in Chapterhouse...

1. How do they enter the ISD?

2. They have scanners that detect creatures who can change their physical and internal structure with ease. Unless the Ghola is able to somehow perfectly copy the memories and structure a guard is, come by an inspection point, dead ghola.

The problem still stand, these examples are nice for maybes, but are hardly quantified and are at best possibilites.

[lumikant]

2. They have scanners that detect creatures who can change their physical and internal structure with ease. Unless the Ghola is able to somehow perfectly copy the memories and structure a guard is, come by an inspection point, dead ghola.

The problem still stand, these examples are nice for maybes, but are hardly quantified and are at best possibilites.

Ghoula's can have a mind copied from the original source, memory-wise.

And in response to Ender, the shield use of the Holtzman equations are completely different then the other uses. The equations were also used in the design of the original "travel without moving" engines. If you look back through the thread, you'll see the explanation of how the shield works from the Dune Encyclopedia.

[lumikant]

As for ways to destroy ships quickly, Holtzman engines don't actually cause movement. Heighliners are built inside comepletely enclosed structures, then they simply disappear as a Navigator engages the engines. It wouldn't be difficult to just attach Holtzman engines to an atomic weapon with a guidance system (which are allowed, as long as the computer is sufficiantly primative). If 3 atomic weapons can split a planetoid open, a single warhead should be more than sufficiant to cause massive damage to a ship.

[Ghost Rider]

As for ways to destroy ships quickly, Holtzman engines don't actually cause movement. Heighliners are built inside comepletely enclosed structures, then they simply disappear as a Navigator engages the engines. It wouldn't be difficult to just attach Holtzman engines to an atomic weapon with a guidance system (which are allowed, as long as the computer is sufficiantly primative). If 3 atomic weapons can split a planetoid open, a single warhead should be more than sufficiant to cause massive damage to a ship.

Which is why Connor asked you to quantify this.

Saying that means the same as if I claim "3 of these devices can shatter my house!"...to say nothing of where it's placed, and the circumstances of the planet.

Nothing here is shown that it does ZILCH other then one interesting example.

[Ghost Rider]

2. They have scanners that detect creatures who can change their physical and internal structure with ease. Unless the Ghola is able to somehow perfectly copy the memories and structure a guard is, come by an inspection point, dead ghola.

The problem still stand, these examples are nice for maybes, but are hardly quantified and are at best possibilites.

Ghoula's can have a mind copied from the original source, memory-wise.

And they do this instantly?

[lumikant]

A single megaton explosion causes 4.184 × 10^15 joules of energy to be expeled, with 60% going directly to blast. Currently we have 15-30 Megaton warheads. Seeing as the Duniverse is descendant from actual Earth history, we have to assume that their yield is at least at our operational capacity now. The largest ever warhead created, that is publicly acknowledged is the Tsar Bomba, created by the Soviet Union. It had a yield of 54 Megatons. That means its yield was 2.26 x 10^17 Joules.

40-60% of the energy goes to the blast,
30-50% to thermal radiation
Other radiation is 10-15% of the energy.

Hopefully those numbers will qualify the destructive power of their atomics, assuming they're only using what Russia had availible in 1961.

[lumikant]

And they do this instantly?

No. They have to be grown in a tank and the memories transfered. I'm not sure of the actual specifics.

[lumikant]

From the Dune Encyclopedia

When created from a corpse-

Tleilax Gholas so produced retained their gene patterns and specific skills but lacked conscious memories of their pasts.


When cloned from genetic material -

The rate of memory reawakening however was never above twenty percent

[Ghost Rider]

We'll have one more shot on this before I lock it because it has now become like every other Dune thread(ie A bunch of funny names, interesting premises but absolutely no idea of power beyond a few loud warnings.)

When Connor asked to quantify he did not mean for you to tell us the history of the nuclear weapon nor tell us what happen when a bomb hits, nor tell us how much in joule is a megaton is.

These are all irrelevant to the asking of. To quanitfy is for you to show us through some math and a low end estimate of the materials involved what happend.

Example: We see the Death Star turn a planet into kibble. Person shows us how much energy it would be needed at the bare minimum for this event to happen.

So I ask again.

Quantify.

[RThurmont]

This thread is really sinking fast. As I said in my first post, the technology platforms in both Paul Atreides-era Dune and Star Wars are arguably at an equal level of sophistication (since both civilizations have logged tens of thousands of years of spaceflight by then if I read Dune correctly) but the technology has evolved in different directions. This technological divergence continues under the tyranny of Leto in his disgusting worm state, with the invention of technologies such as no ships and living furniture that would be completely out of place in the Star Wars universe.

Now, one thing we might be able to rationally debate:

Show a mentant out performing R2.

While I agree with your other comments on this thread, Ghostrider, and while I've yet to see any automaton in the whole of SF that can compare with R2-D2 both in terms of likeability and intelligence/usefulness, the tremendous calculations processed by mentats such as Thufir Hawat and Piter DeVries probably outpace R2-D2's capability set. R2-D2's astrogational capabilities are in all probability matched or exceeded by the grotesque Guild navigators and steersmen, which also have the added capability of stunning Mentat-style analysis of other problems (there was one in Dune Messiah, Eroc or Edric or somesuch, that was heavily involved in the politics of the story although he was technically a steersman if I recall correctly). That said, none of the above can match R2-D2's Swiss Army Knife physical capability set.

[Connor MacLeod]

A single megaton explosion causes 4.184 × 10^15 joules of energy to be expeled, with 60% going directly to blast.

In an atmosphere. Without atmosphere, there's just going to be alot of EM radiation (no atmosphere to interact with.) And the actual percentage varies somewhat depending on the factors involved.

Currently we have 15-30 Megaton warheads.

Actually from what I recall its quite a bit lower than that in modern days (20 megatons were considered "city-busters" IIRC, and the major nuclear powers have been going away from big yield nukes to multiple smaller nukes anyhow.) And the largest was around 50+ megatons, but it wasn't even remotely practical as a weapon (which gives you an idea of what might be usable.)

Do you have any evidence that the 10-20 megaton (or higher) range nukes are acutally still around??

Seeing as the Duniverse is descendant from actual Earth history, we have to assume that their yield is at least at our operational capacity now. The largest ever warhead created, that is publicly acknowledged is the Tsar Bomba, created by the Soviet Union. It had a yield of 54 Megatons. That means its yield was 2.26 x 10^17 Joules.

And massed around 27 tons, as I recall.

40-60% of the energy goes to the blast,
30-50% to thermal radiation
Other radiation is 10-15% of the energy.

In an atmosphere. Space ships do not normally fly in an atmosphere.

Hopefully those numbers will qualify the destructive power of their atomics, assuming they're only using what Russia had availible in 1961.

So you basically cut and paste from some online source (Nuclear WEapons FAQ I am guessing) - without citing your source, (incidentally - isn't that plagarism?)

And no, it doesn't really help. It sets up what is maybe a lower limit, but that doesn't tell us whether the Dune universe has the firepower to take down the GE.

[Connor MacLeod]

As for ways to destroy ships quickly, Holtzman engines don't actually cause movement. Heighliners are built inside comepletely enclosed structures, then they simply disappear as a Navigator engages the engines.

Yes, but they need a navigator onboard during the jump. Are you going to starrt mass-sacrificing navigators?

It wouldn't be difficult to just attach Holtzman engines to an atomic weapon with a guidance system (which are allowed, as long as the computer is sufficiantly primative).

Wht makes you think they'll use computers? Don't you remember the Jihad? Besides that, were computers ever 100% effective at plotting courses as it was (the only reason Navigators were useful was because they were FTL.)

If 3 atomic weapons can split a planetoid open, a single warhead should be more than sufficiant to cause massive damage to a ship.

Again, are you going to quantify the effects of this claim or are you going to keep waving it around as a vague example of some supposed firepower? If you claim they are capable of "damaging" SW ships, you have to provide evidence to bakc it up.

Moreover, even if we *assume* they can damage the ships with such a warhead, how massive will this weapon be? How fast can they build them? How many warheads of that yield do they have? Can they make more? How precisely can a device like that target a starship? Will they even be able to get past the shields?

[Connor MacLeod]

This thread is really sinking fast. As I said in my first post, the technology platforms in both Paul Atreides-era Dune and Star Wars are arguably at an equal level of sophistication (since both civilizations have logged tens of thousands of years of spaceflight by then if I read Dune correctly) but the technology has evolved in different directions. This technological divergence continues under the tyranny of Leto in his disgusting worm state, with the invention of technologies such as no ships and living furniture that would be completely out of place in the Star Wars universe.

Faulty logic. If age were an indicator of power, SW and Dune should be close to Culture level (Hasn't the Culture been around for like nine or ten thousand years only?) And they aren't.

Moreover, by your logic, the Vorlons and Shadows from B5 should be FAR more advanced than SW or the Culture (dunno about Dune vs B5.) given they've been around for millions of years - and this is FAR from true (despite what many Rabid Fivers may claim.)

Oh yeah, and what about SG1 (Where Earth hasn't been in interstellar travel for less than a decade, yet they're developing GT/TT ranged bombs and missiles!)

In short, your claim that "Age as an indicator of technological level" ignores far too many variables (productivity, ,innovation, drive/motivation to advance, etc.) to be remotely accurate, much less valid.

[Connor MacLeod]

IIRC from Chapterhouse Dune/Heretics of Dune, they could land a No-ship on a planet, fully "shielded" against detection (as I recall), and it still had mass in "real life" (it was able to remain on the planet.) If it has mass, it has a gravitational signature, and thus it can be detected by some forms of SW sensors.

Besides, this also begs the question of whether a No-ship would be immune to Tachyonic or subspace sensors anyhow, since I don't recall them having subspace sensors (I don't recall them having tacyhonic sensors either, really.)

[Ender]

And in response to Ender, the shield use of the Holtzman equations are completely different then the other uses. The equations were also used in the design of the original "travel without moving" engines. If you look back through the thread, you'll see the explanation of how the shield works from the Dune Encyclopedia.

I can read child. My response was less an attempt at explanation and more an attempt to point out your thinking flaws.

Lets try to quantify, shall we? When they say it split a planet open, what are we talking here? Lets consider that they mena they hit it so the magma the crust float atop was exposed. that means that we can now figure the depth of the crater, and from there the yield. Of course, the planet in question was inactive and hollow, so that raises some issues. But I think this can be done still.

[RThurmont]

I defend my use of the age of a civilization as an indicator of technological, scientific and intellectual advancement, with the whole point of my thread being to demonstrate how "technology" can develop in different directions. Different civilizations will focus their intellectual activities in different areas, and the evidence is clear that both the SW universe and the Dune universe are keenly interested in applying their minds to technology. However, due to the radically different nature of the two universes, the technology has evolved in decidedly different ways.

I don't deny that other factors influence the equation (that was my whole point really), but in the case of the Dune and the Star Wars universes, there appears to be a considerable amount of outward similiarity: both feature massive, galactic empires that span an incredible number of worlds, rely heavily on interstellar travel to power a pan-galactic economy, and have a substantial population. Both universes also have social groups (in the SW case the Jedi and Sith, and the BG, Mentats and Navigators in Dune, to name a few) that basically develop enhanced abilities over the avearage man. The technological incongruity between the two realms is spawned by the difference in the environmental conditions: you have two civilizations of roughly the same age, with a high degree of population and many worlds interconnected via space travel, but a number of other factors have caused SW and Dune technology to diverge dramatically, including factors such as the Butlerian Jihad, the presence of large, intelligent alien populations in SW (that coexist with humanity, rather than fight it) and the ability of the Jedi and Sith to tap the Force, a phenomenon either non-existent or unknown in the Dune world.

[Ender]

I defend my use of the age of a civilization as an indicator of technological, scientific and intellectual advancement, with the whole point of my thread being to demonstrate how "technology" can develop in different directions. Different civilizations will focus their intellectual activities in different areas, and the evidence is clear that both the SW universe and the Dune universe are keenly interested in applying their minds to technology. However, due to the radically different nature of the two universes, the technology has evolved in decidedly different ways.

Are you fucking stupid?

The USA is 230 years old. China is, what, 3000? Yet they are constantly playing catchup.

Canada is only 23 years old (Independence from England achieved in 1982 IIRC); the Roman Empire lasted 1000 years. Are you going to claim the Romans were more advanced?

For gods sake man, think. Age is an extremely minor factor, not a major one. You have it completely backwards.

No provide some kind of reasoning that they are near each other in tech level beyond "Dur, they real old and big with wizards!"

[Imperial Overlord]

IIRC, the surprise attack on House Atreides in Dune involved 50,000 troops and this was regarded as a stupendously expensive effort. If my memory isn't decieving me, the capacity of Dune's space fleets and transportation abilities in the Great Houses period is clearly pathetic compared to Star Wars.

[Stark]

Did someone say they didn't use shields in the desert because static electricy disrupts them? Oh dear.

[RThurmont]

Ender, to clarify here, my argument was based on the concept of a civilization, not a specific nation, and I made it expressly clear that age was part of a broader set of variables that dictates the level of technological (and other forms of intellectual) advancement. By civilization, I'm talking about a broad, international macro-environment, rather than a specific state within that civilization.

Canada, for example, while a relatively young state, is really a divergence built on the strength of 19th and early 20th century European civilization. The same is true about the US. Different countries, yes, but the same civilization.

Technological progress is clearly cyclical, and China has had moments of extreme innovation in the past, however, for the past few centuries, they were outdistanced by Western civilization in terms of technology. Now, due to the global nature of business, there really isn't any difference between civilizations, the world has been almost entirely westernized. There is one civilization, basically.

Western civilization descends from the Roman Empire, and before that from the Greek civilization and other cultures that interacted in the Mediterranean/West Asian region, so regarding Canada as a "seperate" civilization from the Roman empire is nonsense, frankly. Canada is just one of the newer nations to be spawned by Western civilization. The science of Western civilization descends from the earliest advances made thousands of years ago, and extends into current divergent advances made in the different nations that form a part of that civilization.