(40k) Question About 1000 Marine Limit

[Duckie]

I've been wondering something- when a Space Marine Chapter starts at and remains at 1000 Marines, so it essentially creates new Marines except to replace casualties.

But what if they didn't, and just kept making them? How long does it take to create a new Marine, in the first place? 6-8 Years? Would this be grounds for extermination of the chapter? How would anyone know? Do the High Lords of Terra count them or something?

Or what I'm really wondering, I guess, is how the Marine Limit is enforced, or if it even is at all beyond Ultramarine tradition and "You've got 5 Chapters here and 6 in the Eye of Terror, so something's screwed up" mishaps.

[Duckie]

Ghetto Edit- Goddamn it. "A new Chapter starts at 1000 Space Marines, so it creates new Marines only to replace casualties." Screwed up the sentence.

And that means the Ultramarines had somewhere between 10,000 and 24,000 Space Marines at the time of the Second (First? Which one was the "No Legio For You!" One?) Founding? And Horus had ~6,000? Why were the Sons of Horus so small?

[Ford Prefect]

There appears to be a hundred and four Marines per company, the Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary and Standard Bearer, plus the Battle Brothers. Of course, then there is the Librarium and the Armoury to take into consideration. The thousand marines may have just been a nice round number.

[18-Till-I-Die]

There are some Chapters who say to hell with the '100 Marines' thing though. The Space Wolves, i think, have several individual 'great companies' (off tyopic they're also the fucking coolest sci-fi people EVAH! ) and the Black Templars have between five and six thousand Battle Brothers split up on about three or four 'crusades' throughout the galaxy.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ghetto edit: Gah! Me stupid...1000 Marines....

[SAMAS]

Actually, yes, they do have to count them.

The Black Templars manage to get away with having maybe 5000/6000 Marines because they're always busy and so spread out, they can never get them all together to count.

[Duckie]

So basically it's all fine and dandy for your chapter to say "Fuck You" to the Index Astartes and create 10,000 Space Marines? Then again, who's crazy enough to oppose 10 Chapters entrenched on their own planet...

Do the Ultramarines follow their own 1,000 Marine Rule? If so, wouldn't that make them one of the weakest of the main chapters in contradiction to fluff?

In a related question on the Bad Boys of the Battle Brothers- The Dark Angels hide their secret well, and it has nothing to do with Geneseed, but how do the Black Dragons, Space Wolves, etc. hide the mutation in their geneseed tithes to Mars?

Or is it just "We're the best you've got, so fuck off if we have pointy bones." and the mutated geneseed samples are just ignored?

[Duckie]

Actually, yes, they do have to count them.

The Black Templars manage to get away with having maybe 5000/6000 Marines because they're always busy and so spread out, they can never get them all together to count.

Scratch the last post, then.

But based on 18's post, wouldn't there be a minimum of 1600 Marines per crusade (5k Brothers/3 Crusades)? The Templars say "Sorry, we couldn't get everyone together this time" and the Inspector says "You're already over 60%, so this better be everybody." and it goes over well?

[Morat]

Then again, who's crazy enough to oppose 10 Chapters entrenched on their own planet...

Grey Knights, with the support of other Inquisitorial forces. If the Inquisition believes that a chapter is guilty of heresy, that chapter will be annihilated. Period.

Granted, the Imperium does grant Space Marines a certain degree of leeway (particularly the first founding chapters, it seems), but it would be rather unwise of a chapter to intentionally test those limits.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Actually, yes, they do have to count them.

The Black Templars manage to get away with having maybe 5000/6000 Marines because they're always busy and so spread out, they can never get them all together to count.

Scratch the last post, then.

But based on 18's post, wouldn't there be a minimum of 1600 Marines per crusade (5k Brothers/3 Crusades)? The Templars say "Sorry, we couldn't get everyone together this time" and the Inspector says "You're already over 60%, so this better be everybody." and it goes over well?

Now i may be wrong but as i understand it they're a very OLD chapter, like dierctly related to the Imperial Fists who were one of the First Founding loyalist Chapters.

So they, and those like them, might sometimes get preferential treatment. I doubt very much that if a latter-founding Chapter tried to have 6,000 brothers they would escape Exterminatus.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, my impression was always that the 1000 Marines/Chapter was pretty much a newb thing, for the newer Chapters. The older ones like Ultramarines and so forth are different, as their geneseed has some variations, and though they maintain a pure line they may have many more Marines that they don't 'count' because they don't have the 'true' geneseed...

[LapsedPacifist]

So they, and those like them, might sometimes get preferential treatment. I doubt very much that if a latter-founding Chapter tried to have 6,000 brothers they would escape Exterminatus.

One of the most common punishments is going on crusade. Several of the chapters that rebelled against the imperium in the Badab incident were not exterminated, but their planets were taken and they went on Crusade.

While there's a 1000 marine "limit" it certainly takes many years to develop a marine and I suspect that the chapters with the best recruitment and use of scouts can maintain that limit far more effectively than a chapter that comes from a planet/fleet that finds it difficult to recruit. The Ultramarines recruit from a handful of planets that are well developed with well established training regimes. The Ultramarines would most definately not break that limit.

There's still a limit to how quickly you can grow out your legion. Especially if you're taking losses. In a perfect environment, using human test-slaves that live their entire lives as organ growers it will take about 55 years to develop 1000 sets of organs. In a marine-chapter environment there's going to be losses and initiates that are just plain unsuitable. It would certainly take a lot longer to get there.

As far as the founding chapters. I don't think its heretical for them to number greater than 1000. It goes against the Codex, but they chose not to follow teh codex following the heresy and that was settled between primarchs.

LP

[Imperial Overlord]

As has been mentioned Marine numbers grow closely. The rational for the 1000 Marine chapters is to prevent wholesale corruption of a large number of Marines like that which happened in the Horus Heresy. The Chapters that don't obey to Codex Astartes usually disperese their numbers whether through crusades or organizing into Great Companies or whatever, honoring the spirit of the provision.

[Lost Soal]

Actually, yes, they do have to count them.

The Black Templars manage to get away with having maybe 5000/6000 Marines because they're always busy and so spread out, they can never get them all together to count.

Scratch the last post, then.

But based on 18's post, wouldn't there be a minimum of 1600 Marines per crusade (5k Brothers/3 Crusades)? The Templars say "Sorry, we couldn't get everyone together this time" and the Inspector says "You're already over 60%, so this better be everybody." and it goes over well?

Its been stated that the only person who has any real idea concerning the number of Templar marines is the High Marshal.
As for crusade sizes, they vary wildly in size from 2 squads to several hundred. I believe the 3rd battle for Armageddon had a couple dozen Templar crusades present.

[Spiritbw]

My two cents.

The rule of a thousand space marines is as said, to prevent wholesale corruption of marines. While most try to maintain this they do tend to create more than they need. In some cases when the numbers get high enough they are split off to form a new chapter.

The Ultramarines are the most adamant about this and as a result have more child chapters than any of the other loyalist first founding chapters. Most follow this to some degree or another but some do not for various reasons.

Space Wolves: Never followed the codex astartes and never will. They are still organized in the grand old legion and divided within that into a number of great companies. The numbers of Space Wolves are unknown but I've heard number of upwards of ten thousand.

Crimson Fists: Actually less than five hundred according to most recent fluff. They suffered heavy casualties between the list Tyranid invasion and the 13th black crusade and so are still building up thier numbers.

Black Templars: As stated, they seem to have more than a thousand with four to eight thousand being the usual numbers. This might be because they are spread out in crusading fleets, the Templars having sworn to continue the Great Crusade at one point and IIRC. It also might be because Rogal Dorn, the primarch of thier parent chapter, the Imperial Fists, resisted the push to break up the legions into chapters.

Many other chapters have varying numbers as well either due to overwhelming attrition, being spread to far apart for accurate counts or even simply having developed thier own stratagies and tactics and deviated from the Codex Astartes.

You have to rember that each chapter tends to approach the codex diffrently. as pointed out, the Ultramarines hold it in great reverance while the Space Wolves never even bothered to open it. Other chapters might have held to it, but do to various reasons have changed tactics and organization to best suit thier current needs.

[Lost Soal]

My two cents.
Space Wolves: Never followed the codex astartes and never will. They are still organized in the grand old legion and divided within that into a number of great companies. The numbers of Space Wolves are unknown but I've heard number of upwards of ten thousand.

The chapter was shaped according to Russ' beliefs, however they have nowhere near ten thousand. Twelve to Thirteen hundred more likely, 100 marines for each great company. Proof of this is the fact that they did split and form successor chapters.

Black Templars: As stated, they seem to have more than a thousand with four to eight thousand being the usual numbers. This might be because they are spread out in crusading fleets, the Templars having sworn to continue the Great Crusade at one point and IIRC. It also might be because Rogal Dorn, the primarch of thier parent chapter, the Imperial Fists, resisted the push to break up the legions into chapters.

Rogal refused to split his chapter until they started getting targeted as heretics and persicuted. At this point the Iron hands set up their trap for him which he launched his full leigion at. After this the survivors which felt the need to prove their Legions loyalties were formed into the Black Templars and their 10,000 year long crusade. The more orthadox ones were taken into secclusion for a decade and restructured into the eppitome of a Codex chapter.

while 1000 is the ideal codex number the actual amount does fluctuate and will go over, however except for the Templars, never by more than a few hundred.

[18-Till-I-Die]

You know...the 1000 Marines rule while having some rationale behind it is kind of stupid though. I mean for the Imperium, seeing as the Marines are by and large the best fighters teh Imperium have i'd go trhough the ranks of a couple Imperial guard armies, if i were them, and get as many Space Marines aspirants out of that i could.

Good thing some folks like teh Templars and Space Wolves had the damn good sense to keep their numbers up at 'real army' levels, cause it seems like they need them now. As i understand it the 13 Black Crusade went...badly for the Imperium.

And as i understand it they played rather fast and loose with their Successor Chapters too. The Celestial Lions, from the fluff, are nearly extinct and God only knows how many others out there almost, or did, get wiped out by Armageddon pt 1, 2 and 3 and the 'nids and the Black Crusades.

It really was a ass backwards way to deal with the problem. Instead of just putting some Space Marine Commissars in there to keep the peace, no, we only need, like, three Marines.


And somewhere, a High Lord turns to his fellow Lord who came up with that 1000 Marine rule and says:
"Sooo...the Traitor legions will NEVER overrun Cadia, you said. Abbadon's a pussy you said. We only need about a million fucking Astartes, you said."
"Look Arcturus i said i was sorry about that Codex bull shit ok, can we drop it?"
"No, Malleus, we can not! You tard! You tool! You...heretic!"

[Karza]

The chapter was shaped according to Russ' beliefs, however they have nowhere near ten thousand. Twelve to Thirteen hundred more likely, 100 marines for each great company. Proof of this is the fact that they did split and form successor chapters.

1200-1300 is the number I also recall hearing somewhere (damned if I remember the source). As for the successor thing, the only successor mentioned in Codex: Space Marines is Wolf Brothers, and again some muddy memory for a long long time ago tells me they were disbanded because of genetic deviancy.

[Lost Soal]

The chapter was shaped according to Russ' beliefs, however they have nowhere near ten thousand. Twelve to Thirteen hundred more likely, 100 marines for each great company. Proof of this is the fact that they did split and form successor chapters.

1200-1300 is the number I also recall hearing somewhere (damned if I remember the source). As for the successor thing, the only successor mentioned in Codex: Space Marines is Wolf Brothers, and again some muddy memory for a long long time ago tells me they were disbanded because of genetic deviancy.

The Gray Hunter novel I believe is where the number comes from. And the reason they only split once was because they took more casualties than most through always being on the front lines

[Duckie]

Yes, come to think of it, why were the Legions split into tiny Chapters? Panic over the Horus Heresy? Without a charismatic leader with authority over everyone else (Horus), as we've evidenced with the Chapters, it seems like onyl one unit will traitorize at a time. The only chapter that really could hurt the Imperium at all if it traitorized are the Ultramarines.

The Astral Claws (?), for instance, split from the Imperium, but none of the other Chapters that fought them betrayed the Imperium like the Legions. And if a Chapter goes wrong, the other Chapters just cleanse them. Same as a Legion, only there'd be more Space Marines fighting more Space Marines- higher casualties, but a higher number to start with.

But that's moot, because that's a heretical idea and Emperor knows they have their reasons.

[Lost Soal]

Yes, come to think of it, why were the Legions split into tiny Chapters? Panic over the Horus Heresy? Without a charismatic leader with authority over everyone else (Horus), as we've evidenced with the Chapters, it seems like onyl one unit will traitorize at a time. The only chapter that really could hurt the Imperium at all if it traitorized are the Ultramarines.

The Astral Claws (?), for instance, split from the Imperium, but none of the other Chapters that fought them betrayed the Imperium like the Legions. And if a Chapter goes wrong, the other Chapters just cleanse them. Same as a Legion, only there'd be more Space Marines fighting more Space Marines- higher casualties, but a higher number to start with.

But that's moot, because that's a heretical idea and Emperor knows they have their reasons.

Fear. No one man (except the Emperor) should have that much power under their direct control.
And just to make clear, it appears some people don't know this, breaking the legions down to 1000 marines and ather restructuring was the work and Idea of Rouboute Guilliman, Ultramarine Primarch. It was adopted as the work of the Emperor and enforced onto the remainder of the Leigions.

[Pcm979]

Also, Games Workshop skewed the results of the 13th Black Crusade to give Chaos the win, but even with their blatant disregard for the Imperium's absolute space superiority the 13th Crusade failed at it's stated aim by a very, very wide margin.

[DocHorror]

Funnily enough just after the Heresy, Guilliman was THE most powerful man in the Imperium, before he ordered the Leigons to be split he was in charge of all military assets AND ran the High Lord of Terra on his own. Technically speaking he controlled more the the Imperium in those months (years?) than the Emperor ever did.

[Oskuro]

Actually, the splitting of the chapters brings a real-life event to mind I partially experienced:

A couple years back, in the republic of Paraguay (South America) there was a military coup attempt, wich ultimately failed. Following the coup, all military-related assets where spreaded out to the far reaches of the country and underfunded. This situation kept up for years.
So, tactically it is quite stupid to have your army spread out and weakened like this, but to the very afraid leaders, it makes perfect sense to protect themselves.

So, back to WH40K, although the primarch making the decision did not need to be afraid, those enforcing the Codex afterwards are surely intimidated by the might of the Space Marine chapters, and want to make all they can to prevent a new uprising.
After all, the administrative portions of the Imperium have proven quite fallible and self-centered.

And also, keep in mind that although numbers are good, it is not numbers that really concern the limit, but control of said numbers. The rule was imposed to prevent a single unit of Marines from beeing too powerful, but nothing prevents chapters from producing as many Marines as they can to supply secondary chapters, or to create new chapters.
Remember that power corrupts, and when wielding enough power, even the most loyal of chapters might decide to do things as it sees fit... That's the point behind the rule.



About the 1000 marine limit... I'm not sure about the details, but it seems like it is a limit on active troops, and doubt it takes into account Marines under production. It is quite possible that surplus marines are kept from active duty either by extended training programs or by simply freezing them until needed.
Also, I recall the explicit mention of secondary chapter personnel (Like servants, technicians, or others) not counting towards the 1000 limit. What is defined as secondary personnel is what many chapters might play with to have battle-ready Marines in excess of the 1000 limit.

[Lost Soal]

The rule was imposed to prevent a single unit of Marines from beeing too powerful, but nothing prevents chapters from producing as many Marines as they can to supply secondary chapters, or to create new chapters.

A large part of the creation of a marine is the indoctrination into the chapter; rites, specific religious beliefs prefered combat doctoring etc. a chapter would not create marine to be supplied to another chapter, even a successor chapter, as neither chapter would allow or accept it. The only exception being Ordo Xenos Blackwatch, and there just short to mid term drafts.
Secondly, only he High Lords can sanction the creation of a new chapter and they typically use the geneseed of the Ultramarines as its seen as the most genetically pure and stable. Excces marines from a Chapter could not be used to create a new chapter.