Favorite American President?

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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

HemlockGrey wrote:
Are you kidding? Wilson was one of the worst Presidents ever. The United States should never have been involved in the First World War. You could argue that the world was worse off for our intervention because it allowed the Allies a more decisive victory over Germany. They would have won anyway. Wilson cost the country more dead than in Vietnam for less benefit. And then he frittered away any influence the US could have on the peace process with the league of nations, rather than doing the right thing and moderating the terms of the Treaty of Versailles. And that's not even mentioning his disgusting racial policies.
No, the allies would not have won if the US hadn't entered the war, since the US entrance forced the Germans to commit to the Michael Offensive, abandoning their enormously successful defensive strategy in favour of a massive all-out attack to win the war before US troops arrived in strength. Had that attack not taken place, the Germans could have secured the western parts of Russia for grain production with those troops, eased famine back at home, and continued to hold defensive lines in France indefinitely.

This, however, would have been a good thing, as it would have seen the preservation of the multiethnic Empires of Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire, saving millions of lives up to the present day and avoiding the great conflicts of the mid-east and the foundation of Israel.

It would have also preserved the Second Reich, arguably the most socially advanced country of the time, economically successful, and in the top five in political rights and freedoms.

We are, of course, in total agreement about Wilson being the worst American President ever.
Last edited by The Duchess of Zeon on 2005-08-29 12:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Thirdfain »

Drunk Monkey wrote:
Thirdfain wrote:I feel that FDR is heavily over-rated, and toss out a vote for Lincoln instead.
FDR brought the US out of the depression, started many social programs, AND helped the allies beat the axis during WWII.
FDR was a starry-eyed Communist sympathizer who kowtowed to Stalin at every turn. His social programs were almost completely ineffective, and built us a bloated beaurocracy which lives today.

In the end, I think his only major contributions were as a figurehead and his push for bringing the United States into the war. He did well in both those things, but I'll point out that at the end of World War 2, half of Europe was STILL controlled by a brutal, dictatorial regime.
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Post by Drunk Monkey »

Thirdfain wrote: FDR was a starry-eyed Communist sympathizer who kowtowed to Stalin at every turn.


It’s better to side with Stalin then Hitler.
His social programs were almost completely ineffective, and built us a bloated beaurocracy which lives today.


Tell that to the Millions of starving Americans who were greatly helped by the welfare system.

In the end, I think his only major contributions were as a figurehead and his push for bringing the United States into the war. He did well in both those things, but I'll point out that at the end of World War 2, half of Europe was STILL controlled by a brutal, dictatorial regime.


Half of Europe being a dictatorship is better then ALL of Europe being a dictatorship, which would have happened by the way if FDR would not have been President.
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Post by Thirdfain »

Drunk Monkey wrote: It’s better to side with Stalin then Hitler.
Tell that to the 200 million odd people who fell under the rule of both.
Tell that to the Millions of starving Americans who were greatly helped by the welfare system.
America didn't have a significantly higher amount of starvation before the Depression than it did after FDR's social programs. Try again.
Half of Europe being a dictatorship is better then ALL of Europe being a dictatorship, which would have happened by the way if FDR would not have been President.
Yeah, I can't imagine ANY OTHER PERSON possibly going to war with Germany. It's not like this was some ingenious political maneuver.
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Post by Jason von Evil »

Drunk Monkey wrote:It’s better to side with Stalin then Hitler.
Its better to side with one genocidal maniac than the other genocidal maniac? :wtf:
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Post by The Kernel »

Thirdfain wrote: America didn't have a significantly higher amount of starvation before the Depression than it did after FDR's social programs. Try again.
You think Social Security was a failure as a social program? Social Security is the lone thing that prevents the necessity of the lower class elderly from working until they day they die like many people had to before it was implemented.
Yeah, I can't imagine ANY OTHER PERSON possibly going to war with Germany. It's not like this was some ingenious political maneuver.
It was a bit more than just going to war with Germany, it was the timing and the politics of it. America wasn't ready to go to war at first; the population of the US was still fiercly isolationist and didn't think we had any business being involved. FDR knew we would have to join the war eventually and he knew that we'd need Britain as an ally to make it possible, so while he worked up public support and rubbed the Axis powers the wrong way, he also started supplying the British with ships and supplies that they needed to hold out until he could bring the US into the war.

This sounds a lot easier than it is; FDR had to walk a very fine line here because he couldn't outright take sides in the war before Pearl Harbor, but he needed to support the British, so he did it in such a way that wasn't obvious to the layperson (trading ships for bases for example) and kept him from looking like he had already picked a side.
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Post by The Kernel »

Jason von Evil wrote:
Drunk Monkey wrote:It’s better to side with Stalin then Hitler.
Its better to side with one genocidal maniac than the other genocidal maniac? :wtf:
At the time, there wasn't a whole lot of choice. Stalin taking eastern Europe was inevitable, the man made a mad rush to Berlin to try and beat the rest of the Allies. What did you expect FDR to do exactly, go to war with everyone? The Allies needed the Russians and they didn't exactly cozy up to them post-war now did they?
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Post by Drunk Monkey »

Jason von Evil wrote:
Drunk Monkey wrote:It’s better to side with Stalin then Hitler.
Its better to side with one genocidal maniac than the other genocidal maniac? :wtf:
They were both evil monsters, but Stalin was content with Russia, unlike Hitler who wanted the world. The way I see it Stalin was the lesser of 2 evils, and the fact the soviets were easier to get along with then the Fascist.
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Post by fgalkin »

Drunk Monkey wrote:
Jason von Evil wrote:
Drunk Monkey wrote:It’s better to side with Stalin then Hitler.
Its better to side with one genocidal maniac than the other genocidal maniac? :wtf:
They were both evil monsters, but Stalin was content with Russia, unlike Hitler who wanted the world. The way I see it Stalin was the lesser of 2 evils, and the fact the soviets were easier to get along with then the Fascist.
Yes, he was so content with Russia he invaded Poland, Finland, and was planning to attack Eastern Europe when Hitler invaded Russia. Trult, he wanted nothing more than his own country :roll:

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Post by Drunk Monkey »

Thirdfain wrote:Tell that to the 200 million odd people who fell under the rule of both
They were Both Maniacs it’s Just Stalin was barely more tolerable then Hitler, and the fact during the war we needed as many allies as we could get, If it means a allying with a tyrant then so be it.


America didn't have a significantly higher amount of starvation before the Depression than it did after FDR's social programs. Try again.


225 died in NYC from 1931 to 1934, in Pennsylvania people ate weeds, in Arkansas people were forced to reside in caves and in California many were forced to reside in sewers. Nope the depression didn’t do any thing to harm the American people.:roll:
Yeah, I can't imagine ANY OTHER PERSON possibly going to war with Germany. It's not like this was some ingenious political maneuver.
Your Point. The US possibly wouldn’t have went to war if it went for the events of December 1941.
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Post by Drunk Monkey »

fgalkin wrote: Yes, he was so content with Russia he invaded Poland, Finland, and was planning to attack Eastern Europe when Hitler invaded Russia. Trult, he wanted nothing more than his own country :roll:

Have a very nice day.
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Well I concede on that point, forgot about that part. :oops:
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Frankly though, had he survived he would have treated the defeated South much better than it actually was.
Which would have been a shame, since the South got off far too lightly as it was...there should have been massive land redistribution for a start, and harsh measures to ensure that blacks could not have been disenfranchised.
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Post by Flagg »

HemlockGrey wrote:
Frankly though, had he survived he would have treated the defeated South much better than it actually was.
Which would have been a shame, since the South got off far too lightly as it was...there should have been massive land redistribution for a start, and harsh measures to ensure that blacks could not have been disenfranchised.
Not to mention execution of the top level traitors.
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HemlockGrey wrote:
Frankly though, had he survived he would have treated the defeated South much better than it actually was.
Which would have been a shame, since the South got off far too lightly as it was...there should have been massive land redistribution for a start, and harsh measures to ensure that blacks could not have been disenfranchised.
Which would have absolutely ensured that the two halves of the country never reconciled, and there would likely be intense resentments and discontent right down to this day. Nevermind the justice of it for a moment, harsh, vindictive peace settlements do not build lasting peace. They build resentments that make the next generation want to have another go to get their own back. You might think people would learn from history. After all, the Versailles Treaty shows just how successful that approach is. :roll:
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TR, Theodore Roosevelt, has always been my favorite president. If I had to describe him in one word, it would be badass.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Regarding the Civil War: Shit, there are people who still hold a grudge over it.
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Uraniun235 wrote:Regarding the Civil War: Shit, there are people who still hold a grudge over it.
See my sig. Damn, I wish people would just let it go, but I'm not going to stand about while people talk of the Confederacy as the shining pinnacle of individual rights. :roll:
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Uraniun235 wrote:Regarding the Civil War: Shit, there are people who still hold a grudge over it.
Exactly. Now imagine how much worse it would be if the Union had ground the south under its boot under the philosophy of "let's make 'em pay by God!" As it was, they didn't celebrate the fourth of July in Vicksburg until over a hundred years after the Civil War was over. If we had enforced a harsh, draconian peace settlement on the South during Reconstruction, then it never would have been Reconstruction. The country still wouldn't be put back together.
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Post by Flagg »

I'm just sick of seeing all of these fucking dipshits with their Confederate battle flags going on about how "it's about heritage, not hatred". Newsflash Cletus, it's about a heritage of hatred.
That wasn't directed any anyone in particular BTW.
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What are you talking about? Lincoln didn't start the war, the rebels started the war when they seized federal arsenals and fired on Fort Sumter.
Lincoln could just have let the Deep South go. Give them the land, work out a deal for paying for federal assets, and possibly keep the upper south in the Union. That would certainly have had a far lower cost in blood than putting down the South. Eventually the economics of slavery would have collapsed without the lasting hostility derived from the civil war.

Lincoln wasn't a bad president, he was quite good. However he lacks superlative abilities of TR and Washington.
No, the allies would not have won if the US hadn't entered the war, since the US entrance forced the Germans to commit to the Michael Offensive, abandoning their enormously successful defensive strategy in favour of a massive all-out attack to win the war before US troops arrived in strength. Had that attack not taken place, the Germans could have secured the western parts of Russia for grain production with those troops, eased famine back at home, and continued to hold defensive lines in France indefinitely.
Maybe, but the Salonika and Middleastern fronts were being rolled back. The Allies would eventually be able to knock out the Ottomans, push north through the Balkans, and disrupt the eastern territories. That would be a long, slow slog but at the end of the day the Entente still holds the better position by far. Wether or not the war will drag on long enough for a white peace or continue until Austria-Hungary falls and Germany is standing alone on two fronts, I don't know.

Tell that to the Millions of starving Americans who were greatly helped by the welfare system.
Proof? I have never seen any reputable claim of that many Americans starving. Further you do recall that FDR paid farmers to plow their crops under because there was a GLUT of food on the market collapsing prices.
Half of Europe being a dictatorship is better then ALL of Europe being a dictatorship, which would have happened by the way if FDR would not have been President.
:roll: Willkie was a bigger hawk than FDR, which is why he lost. He called for an expanded Lend-Lease program, he called for a larger military build-up (there is some merit to the idea that he allowed FDR to bulk up the military), and even went on record in favor of unlimited aid to the British.

If anything Roosevelt losing in 1940 would have found the US in a more agressive stance with greater neutral lean towards the allies. After Pearl Harbor, Willkie would have hammered the Axis just as hard (though possibly not have tried to appeal quite so much to Stalin's nonexistant noblesse oblige).
225 died in NYC from 1931 to 1934, in Pennsylvania people ate weeds, in Arkansas people were forced to reside in caves and in California many were forced to reside in sewers. Nope the depression didn’t do any thing to harm the American people
Millions of starving Americans not in evidence then. Concession accepted.
Your Point. The US possibly wouldn’t have went to war if it went for the events of December 1941.
Sure it could. The USN and Kriegsmarine were already killing each other. The Reuben James was already lying at the bottom of the Atlantic due to a German torpedo prior to WWII. Eventually enough US sailors (both USN and merchant marine) would not make it home that the US would eventually issue an ultimatum to Hitler that he could not give in to or weasel out of. That would have delayed US entry significantly, but sans Pear Harbor the US was still in a position to eventually go to war.
You think Social Security was a failure as a social program? Social Security is the lone thing that prevents the necessity of the lower class elderly from working until they day they die like many people had to before it was implemented.
The program designed by FDR does not even do that. He sold it as a ridiciously underfunded program that still isn't fully funded despite thousand percent funding increases.
. FDR knew we would have to join the war eventually and he knew that we'd need Britain as an ally to make it possible, so while he worked up public support and rubbed the Axis powers the wrong way, he also started supplying the British with ships and supplies that they needed to hold out until he could bring the US into the war.
Which of these did Willkie oppose? He called for an expanded Lend-Lease, more support for the British, and USN navy protection of the convoys to Iceland. A republican victory in 1940 would have put a man in the whitehouse who would have maintained the British until Pearl Harbor, and then proceeded to kick Axis ass as happened historicly.

This sounds a lot easier than it is; FDR had to walk a very fine line here because he couldn't outright take sides in the war before Pearl Harbor, but he needed to support the British, so he did it in such a way that wasn't obvious to the layperson (trading ships for bases for example) and kept him from looking like he had already picked a side.
Again which of these policies did Willkie not also advocate? Why would Willkie not have followed through on any of these?

At the time, there wasn't a whole lot of choice. Stalin taking eastern Europe was inevitable, the man made a mad rush to Berlin to try and beat the rest of the Allies. What did you expect FDR to do exactly, go to war with everyone? The Allies needed the Russians and they didn't exactly cozy up to them post-war now did they?
Put American troops on the ground to monitor the elections after WWII. Not sell out the Polish government-in-exile even after Stalin "disappeared" their representatives sent to the USSR. Not turn aside the push into Germany looking for the mythical redoubt. Maybe push the Greek front north into Bulgaria and Yugoslavia.

There are many better options than FDR's stated position: "I think that if I give him everything that I possibly can and ask nothing from him in return, noblesse oblige, he won’t try to annex anything and will work for a world of democracy and peace."
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Post by Thirdfain »

They were Both Maniacs it’s Just Stalin was barely more tolerable then Hitler, and the fact during the war we needed as many allies as we could get, If it means a allying with a tyrant then so be it.
We could have kept Stalin as an ally without sacrificing the entirety of Eastern Europe (and betraying a number of our signed treaty allies in the course.) Instead, FDR chose the path of least resistence, going so far as to deny support for nationalist Polish resistance fighters as they stood a chance of erecting a regime Stalin wouldn't like- i.e, one which was actually free and sovereign.
Drunk Monkey wrote:\
225 died in NYC from 1931 to 1934, in Pennsylvania people ate weeds, in Arkansas people were forced to reside in caves and in California many were forced to reside in sewers. Nope the depression didn’t do any thing to harm the American people.:roll:
Excuse me, jackass, read my post. I said there was no major difference between PRE DEPRESSION starvation and starvation in America after the depression and the New Deal. FDR didn't end the depression, the war did.
Your Point. The US possibly wouldn’t have went to war if it went for the events of December 1941..
The Japanese were going to make a push for Pacific supremacy regardless of who was in office. It was the whole point of their foreign policy, for chrissakes!
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tharkûn wrote:Lincoln could just have let the Deep South go. Give them the land, work out a deal for paying for federal assets, and possibly keep the upper south in the Union. That would certainly have had a far lower cost in blood than putting down the South. Eventually the economics of slavery would have collapsed without the lasting hostility derived from the civil war.

Lincoln wasn't a bad president, he was quite good. However he lacks superlative abilities of TR and Washington.
If Lincoln had let the south or any part of it go, it would have established the (bad) precedent that you can secede if the rest of the country is following policies you don't like. I can just imagine the patchwork of squabbling little principalities we could potentially have disintegrated into had that been allowed to happen. No thank you. Lincoln was right to preserve the Union, even at great cost.
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They were Both Maniacs it’s Just Stalin was barely more tolerable then Hitler, and the fact during the war we needed as many allies as we could get, If it means a allying with a tyrant then so be it.
We could have kept Stalin as an ally without sacrificing the entirety of Eastern Europe (and betraying a number of our signed treaty allies in the course.) Instead, FDR chose the path of least resistence, going so far as to deny support for nationalist Polish resistance fighters as they stood a chance of erecting a regime Stalin wouldn't like- i.e, one which was actually free and sovereign.
Drunk Monkey wrote:\
225 died in NYC from 1931 to 1934, in Pennsylvania people ate weeds, in Arkansas people were forced to reside in caves and in California many were forced to reside in sewers. Nope the depression didn’t do any thing to harm the American people.:roll:
Excuse me, jackass, read my post. I said there was no major difference between PRE DEPRESSION starvation and starvation in America after the depression and the New Deal. FDR didn't end the depression, the war did.
Your Point. The US possibly wouldn’t have went to war if it went for the events of December 1941..
The Japanese were going to make a push for Pacific supremacy regardless of who was in office. It was the whole point of their foreign policy, for chrissakes!
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Thirdfain wrote:
They were Both Maniacs it’s Just Stalin was barely more tolerable then Hitler, and the fact during the war we needed as many allies as we could get, If it means a allying with a tyrant then so be it.
We could have kept Stalin as an ally without sacrificing the entirety of Eastern Europe (and betraying a number of our signed treaty allies in the course.) Instead, FDR chose the path of least resistence, going so far as to deny support for nationalist Polish resistance fighters as they stood a chance of erecting a regime Stalin wouldn't like- i.e, one which was actually free and sovereign.
It's not exactly that simple. The greater part of the Red Army was sitting near the Allied Forces at the end of the War in Europe. Roosevelt probably wanted to avoid having the war turn into a third phase against the Soviets, which would have been rather costly in lives and money.
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It's not exactly that simple. The greater part of the Red Army was sitting near the Allied Forces at the end of the War in Europe. Roosevelt probably wanted to avoid having the war turn into a third phase against the Soviets, which would have been rather costly in lives and money.
Of course it would have, and by that time it was too late. Roosevelt had already failed to secure any garuantees whatsovever of Eastern European independence outside of Stalin's word.

Here are some examples of the absolutely callous treatment by the Roosevelt administration of Stalin and his plans for Eastern Europe.

1: The Warsaw Uprising was launched by nationalist Polish resistance fighters as Russian forces pushed back the Germans around the city. When the resistance fighters actually succeeded in taking the city from the Germans before the Russians could arrive, the Russian front immediately stopped all offensive operations while the Germans redeployed to crush the revolt. This wound up taking over a month (longer than it had taken to crush all of Poland in the first place,) during which the Polish government in exile requested air support from the British and Americans. A handful of desultory raids were launched, but FDR refused to allow the usage of American air bases in Italy for more powerful bombing missions. They asked Stali for permission to use his bases to support the Poles, and was rebuked. Churchill sent a letter to Roosevelt suggestig a joint message to Stalin demanding use of air bases form the Russians to support the Poles. FDR just wrung his hands and said it would be better not to tick off Uncle Joe. The Warsaw Revolt was crushed, and the Russians immediately moved in and installed a Communist regime.

2. Early in the war, the Polish government in exile and the British opened talks with the Russians over the borders of Poland. The British and Poles basically said that after the war was over, the Russians should return the land they'd taken from Poland in their brief alliance with the Nazis. Unfortunately, FDR never supported this even slightly, and even at this early hour, put in with the Soviet Union. He failed to secure any obligations for the freedom of Eastern Europe after the war, even though the Russians drastically needed American support and the issue was on the table

3. As Tharkun mentioned, no effort was made to monitor the elections in Eastern Europe after the war- full trust was placed in Uncle Joe.

By 1945, there was no hope for a free Eastern Europe. This is thanks to an American policy of complete subservience to the "peaceful" Soviets in matters of Eastern European policy up until that point.
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