Gamestop/EB and X360 Bundles.

[The Kernel]

While I think Blu-ray is massive overkill and HD-DVD is a better solution; I think DVD is too little. There are already games on the XBox THIS GENERATION shipping on two DVD's. And the HD games on these systems achieve this by up-sampling. With much more detailed textures (being HD) and far higher poly counts and games being designed for 512 MB of RAM instead of 64 MB of RAM and much more expansive worlds...personally, I'm expecting within a few years MOST games will come on multiple DVD's.

I think you are right that by the end of this generation, most games will ship on two DVD's, but so what? It's not a big deal to switch out the discs 20 hours through a game for the consumer and the cost savings is so immense on the hardware front that they can afford a few extra cents for the extra DVDs.

Besides, you know how Square Enix LOVES cutscenes. On the PS3 they can do 1080p cutscenes. On the XBox they'd have to ship a second DVD with cutscenes.

They wouldn't seperate the discs with cutscenes, they do a new disc halfway through. You are right about cutscenes, but you know that FMV cutscenes are becoming relics; these days almost everyone does it in game and next generation more so. In game cutscenes are cheaper, more flexible, and can look almost as good (just look at some of the stuff Halo 2 came up with). Next generation there won't be much point to pre-rendered stuff.

[SirNitram]

This is always a hilarious argument to hear. I'm sorry, I was hearing the same when the CD-ROM was developed. And then I heard the same when the DVD-ROM was made. And yet, for example, FFX nearly filled it's disc with all the crap they put in there.

I'm not saying that the space needs of a video game will never surpass DVD. What I'm saying is that the space needs of game do not scale at the rate of other computing needs. Notice that in the Playstation days, discs were constantly surpassing the needs of the CD, with large games taking up as much as four discs. During the DVD generation, seldom did games surpass a single disc and two was the most ever needed.

A Blu-Ray player would be nice on a current console, but given the costs associated with the technology, I'd say the money would be better spent elsewhere considering that games are unlikely to surpass two DVD-9's, even in this generation.

Stating your conclusion as fact? Really, Kernel. The fact is that the space continues to balloon, and the mere fact we've exceeded DVD-9's proves this. Hell, it's a fact that once we left CD-ROMs, there was a ballooning simply to fill the DVD. As I said, computer projects act as a gas.

BTW, most of the time DVD-9 games only exceed a single disc when FMV is used (which is extremely space intensive), something that is becoming less and less common as in game cinematics become better.

Heh. If you think the company we're speaking of(SquareEnix) is gonna drop FMV's anytime soon, you're fooling yourself. They love that stuff.

Any sort of computer project is a gas. They will fill the availiable space.

Not really, many early Playstation 2 games didn't even use the DVD-9 format and shipped on CD's (that's the difference between the purple discs and the silver ones) and very few ever used two discs, and certainly not four like the Playstation would use. You can only use so much disc space.

And yet you yourself admit in this post that the DVD-9 has been exceeded and simply state your conclusion as fact to try and ignore that.

Also to the point is the data-retreival speed, which is in the hundreds of megs/second... Just a bit handy for folks not wanting loading times.

True, but load times are dictated by many factors and if Sony really wanted to reduce load times, they would have gone with a standard hard drive. It would have cost them less, and would have provided a superior reduction in load times since not only is a hard drive faster, but the seek times are much lower (something that isn't going to improve much with Blu-Ray). Raw transfer rate is not often the bottleneck in load times.

I was unaware it had been shown they weren't going with a standard hard drive? Eh, whatever it may be. It's still a lovely addition.

Even with this considered, there's one huge factor that will keep Square away from Microsoft: Microsoft simply isn't that badass in Japan. They know their core audience, and it isn't the American market, no matter how much we toss down for our regular doses of FF Crack.

True, but don't forget that America has become a bigger market lately, even for Square. Granted, as far as total market share goes, Sony has the angle, even if you assume Microsoft creams them in the US next generation, however it's not like Square isn't going to lose money going cross platform. They don't need to do exclusives after all.

Really though, I think this is about nationalistic pride. Square is a Japanese company and doesn't like the idea of giving into a foreign console maker. The Japanese are funny about this, and they don't see business as a mass heap of globalization like the rest of the world.

Case in point: both Nintendo and Square came into Microsoft's radar during the early days of the Xbox. Nintendo would have been a perfect aquisition taget, both companies had strengths where the other was weak (Microsoft had the platform, the support structure and the money and Nintendo had the games plus the built in Japanese audience), but Nintendo's CEO said in no uncertain terms that there was no way in hell that he would sell out to an American company.

Square was a bit different, according to rumor, they did actually make a proposal to Microsoft, but aparently it was ridiculously high (something on the order of five times their market cap) so it was rejected.

It probably is. How many Silicon Valley companies would sell themselves to a Japanese firm?

[The Kernel]

Stating your conclusion as fact? Really, Kernel. The fact is that the space continues to balloon, and the mere fact we've exceeded DVD-9's proves this. Hell, it's a fact that once we left CD-ROMs, there was a ballooning simply to fill the DVD. As I said, computer projects act as a gas.

Ahhh, but do you know why CD was being exceeded? FMV. Most of the games that were multi-CD were that way because of a copious amount of FMV. And aside from Square, I doubt FMV space is going to be much of a consideration in the near future.

Heh. If you think the company we're speaking of(SquareEnix) is gonna drop FMV's anytime soon, you're fooling yourself. They love that stuff.

True, I doubt Square will give up FMV in the next generation (although it's certainly possible, they did much of FFX, FFX-2 and Kingdom Hearts in-engine) but they are only one company and they can always use multiple discs.

And yet you yourself admit in this post that the DVD-9 has been exceeded and simply state your conclusion as fact to try and ignore that.

Like I said, not really. How many games do you know that take up more than one DVD? Hell, Halo 1 fit on a single CD and most PC games that ship today do so on 5+ CD's, which doesn't even hit the space of a DVD.

In fact, PC games are a pretty good way to judge how much space has increased over the years. Look at the speed at which they jumped up to the standards of today and you'll see that space needs really aren't increasing at the rate you think.

I was unaware it had been shown they weren't going with a standard hard drive? Eh, whatever it may be. It's still a lovely addition.

The PS3 won't be using a standard hard drive. This is official news from Sony.

I agree that Blu-Ray is a nice addition, but for movies much more than games. And actually, I really don't care about it for movies on the PS3 really, all I care about is that it will drive down the costs of standalone Blu-Ray players much like the PS2 did with DVD.

Once again, I'm not saying that the extra space won't be nice, just that it's not a cost effective bottleneck to work on. Do you have any idea how much power you can add to a system for what the Blu-Ray drive is likely costing Sony? The conservative estimates say that $100 is probably what Sony will have to pay out of pocket for Blu-Ray drives to be included at the beginning, that's a pretty fair chunk of change. They would have done better by including something like the X360's GPU's DRAM+logic daughter chip.

It probably is. How many Silicon Valley companies would sell themselves to a Japanese firm?

Plenty, business in the US isn't run by nationalistic pride like it is in Japan. A great number of them are already owned by foreign companies and the rest would sell if the price was right. Remember, American shareholders don't care about who owns the company so long as they are getting decent dividends.

[The Dude]

Are there really console games currently shipping on multiple DVD-9s?

Which ones?

[The Kernel]

Are there really console games currently shipping on multiple DVD-9s?

Which ones?

Very few actually. Some ship with two DVD-9's like Halo 2, but the second disc is bonus content.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is FF XII which is slated to ship on two DVD's. I can't really think of any others, although I'm sure there must be a few.

EDIT: Wait, I thought of one. Shadow Hearts: Covenant was a two disc.

[SirNitram]

Stating your conclusion as fact? Really, Kernel. The fact is that the space continues to balloon, and the mere fact we've exceeded DVD-9's proves this. Hell, it's a fact that once we left CD-ROMs, there was a ballooning simply to fill the DVD. As I said, computer projects act as a gas.

Ahhh, but do you know why CD was being exceeded? FMV. Most of the games that were multi-CD were that way because of a copious amount of FMV. And aside from Square, I doubt FMV space is going to be much of a consideration in the near future.

Perhaps you're simply not used to debating, but this entire tangent was on where Square is going. I don't know other companies well enough to second-guess them; I know a few ones that flipflopped who they developed for simply for the X-Box's vaunted higher tech, and it's possible they'll bounce again, but it's too early, as Sony's dumped the PS3 specs as solid and are fooling with it again.

Heh. If you think the company we're speaking of(SquareEnix) is gonna drop FMV's anytime soon, you're fooling yourself. They love that stuff.

True, I doubt Square will give up FMV in the next generation (although it's certainly possible, they did much of FFX, FFX-2 and Kingdom Hearts in-engine) but they are only one company and they can always use multiple discs.

Or they could continue to do as they've done, as opposed to suddenly shifting and changing as you imagine they will.

And yet you yourself admit in this post that the DVD-9 has been exceeded and simply state your conclusion as fact to try and ignore that.

Like I said, not really. How many games do you know that take up more than one DVD? Hell, Halo 1 fit on a single CD and most PC games that ship today do so on 5+ CD's, which doesn't even hit the space of a DVD.

'It happened, but, uh, don't look at it. Really, don't. Instead, let's look at PC games, which have always had different amounts of data'. And because X-Com came on only a few floppies, cartridges will never need to get bigger? Riiiight.

In fact, PC games are a pretty good way to judge how much space has increased over the years. Look at the speed at which they jumped up to the standards of today and you'll see that space needs really aren't increasing at the rate you think.

PC games are not console games, simply put.

I was unaware it had been shown they weren't going with a standard hard drive? Eh, whatever it may be. It's still a lovely addition.

The PS3 won't be using a standard hard drive. This is official news from Sony.

Can you possibly give me some sort of direction to look for this? Last I heard they had un-frozen the specs.

I agree that Blu-Ray is a nice addition, but for movies much more than games. And actually, I really don't care about it for movies on the PS3 really, all I care about is that it will drive down the costs of standalone Blu-Ray players much like the PS2 did with DVD.

Speaking as a rather cash-strapped consumer, one gaming console with Blu-Ray included will probably cost me less in the long run than a gaming console and a Blu-Ray player. This was definately the case when getting a DVD player.

Once again, I'm not saying that the extra space won't be nice, just that it's not a cost effective bottleneck to work on. Do you have any idea how much power you can add to a system for what the Blu-Ray drive is likely costing Sony? The conservative estimates say that $100 is probably what Sony will have to pay out of pocket for Blu-Ray drives to be included at the beginning, that's a pretty fair chunk of change. They would have done better by including something like the X360's GPU's DRAM+logic daughter chip.

I'll agree here, but it comes down to what you want the system to do. The X-Box is dropping it all into lifelike graphics.

It probably is. How many Silicon Valley companies would sell themselves to a Japanese firm?

Plenty, business in the US isn't run by nationalistic pride like it is in Japan. A great number of them are already owned by foreign companies and the rest would sell if the price was right. Remember, American shareholders don't care about who owns the company so long as they are getting decent dividends.

Pardon me if I laugh at the idea of anything in America not being nationalistic. I've seen plenty of jingoistic retardation in tech companies and other kinds.

[The Kernel]

Perhaps you're simply not used to debating, but this entire tangent was on where Square is going. I don't know other companies well enough to second-guess them; I know a few ones that flipflopped who they developed for simply for the X-Box's vaunted higher tech, and it's possible they'll bounce again, but it's too early, as Sony's dumped the PS3 specs as solid and are fooling with it again.

Square is not an unknown in the games industry. Their moves are still predictable if you look at all of the availible evidence.

Or they could continue to do as they've done, as opposed to suddenly shifting and changing as you imagine they will.

That's just it, they HAVEN'T kept doing what they've been doing all along. Square used to have all of their cutscenes in FMV. In FFX and FFX-2, a small fraction of them were FMV. In Kingdom Hearts, they eliminated FMV almost entirely. This is called a pattern and it's pretty easy to see that they will likely throw out most of their FMV in the next gen for in game cutscenes just like everyone else in the industry has been doing.

Besides, FMV has a FIXED level of space it takes up. Going from CD to DVD alleviated much of the space concern, even with FMV.

'It happened, but, uh, don't look at it. Really, don't. Instead, let's look at PC games, which have always had different amounts of data'. And because X-Com came on only a few floppies, cartridges will never need to get bigger? Riiiight.

Don't be a dense moron, space simply isn't a bottleneck today like it was in the Playstation days. During the end of the PS days, they were pushing four discs, today barely any games ship with more than one. That's a difference no matter how much you want to stick your fingers in your ears.

PC games are not console games, simply put.

LOL, alright smartass, do tell, what are they going to use all of this extra space for? Higher res textures? Sorry, the PC has had those for years, and they still haven't exceeded DVD-9. FMV? Nope, FMV is not only dying as a standard for game cutscenes due to the improvements in graphics but it takes up a fixed amount of space and does not grow relative to the rest of the system.

You made the statement that games could fill a BD-ROM disc, so now prove it. Don't refer to vague statements and analogies, give me a specific use for the space.

Can you possibly give me some sort of direction to look for this? Last I heard they had un-frozen the specs.

Ken Kutaragi confirmed that the PS3 won't ship with a hard drive to Famitsu a while back. They simply can't afford to do so with the Blu-Ray drive standard.

Sony's PlayStation 3 will not come packaged with a hard drive, reports the latest issue of Famitsu. While the machine comes with a 2.5-inch hard drive slot, consumers will be required to purchase and install the actual drive separately.

The news means that Microsoft's Xbox 360 will be the only one of the three next-generation consoles that will come with a hard drive. It comes with a detachable "outrigger" 20GB hard drive by default. Nintendo doesn't plan on the Revolution having a hard drive since the console uses 512MB of flash memory for data saving.

For Sony, offering the hard drive separately will cut costs for the PlayStation 3, which is expected to sell at around 44,800 yen ($410) in Japan according to a recent analysis by Merrill Lynch Japan Securities.

In recent interviews with the Japanese press, Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi said that he expects the initial capacity of the PS3's hard drive to be 80GB. While Sony hasn't released any figures on how much its hard drive is expected to be priced at, a 2.5-inch 80GB in the current Japanese market costs around an average of 20,000 yen ($180). Sony sells its 40GB hard drive (SCPH-20401) for the PlayStation 2 for 10,479 yen ($95).

Given Sony's past strategies, it is possible the company will offer a hard-drive-bundled PlayStation 3 as well as a standard edition. When Sony launched its PSP in Japan last December, the company offered the handheld machine in two packages: a normal edition priced at 19,800 yen ($179), and a "Value Pack" edition priced at 24,800 yen ($224), which came bundled with a number of accessories, including a 32MB Memory Stick Duo for saving game data. However, in America, the PSP Value Pack is the only option available.

Speaking as a rather cash-strapped consumer, one gaming console with Blu-Ray included will probably cost me less in the long run than a gaming console and a Blu-Ray player. This was definately the case when getting a DVD player.

Do you really still use your PS2 as a DVD player? Honestly I can't stand doing it, it's got an obtuse interface and isn't nearly as smooth, feature filled or as good looking/sounding as my standalone unit. Sony COULD improve on these features, but they won't; Sony's consumer electronics division would kill them.

I'll agree here, but it comes down to what you want the system to do. The X-Box is dropping it all into lifelike graphics.

In all fairness, they both are. What I like particularly about the X360's graphics is the free 4x AA which should do a nice job of eliminating nasty jaggies in all games.

Pardon me if I laugh at the idea of anything in America not being nationalistic. I've seen plenty of jingoistic retardation in tech companies and other kinds.

It's not widespread like it is in Japan. If you follow the American market, you'd realize that these sorts of buyouts occur all the time. Remember the 80's? The average Joe might have been bitching, but the corporations were having a ball.

[Master of Ossus]

Kernel, how old is that Gamespot article? An 80GB 2.5 inch drive selling for $180?

[The Kernel]

Kernel, how old is that Gamespot article? An 80GB 2.5 inch drive selling for $180?

It's from July, and I doubt the pricing is final (they were probably waiting to see what Microsoft was planning before making any decisions), but the fact that they aren't doing a standard hard drive config is not going to change.

[SirNitram]

Perhaps you're simply not used to debating, but this entire tangent was on where Square is going. I don't know other companies well enough to second-guess them; I know a few ones that flipflopped who they developed for simply for the X-Box's vaunted higher tech, and it's possible they'll bounce again, but it's too early, as Sony's dumped the PS3 specs as solid and are fooling with it again.

Square is not an unknown in the games industry. Their moves are still predictable if you look at all of the availible evidence.

Have you actually read what I've been posting? This is getting annoying. I haven't said Square is a goddamn unknown. I've said their knowns line up with what we know about the PS3, not the X-Box.

Or they could continue to do as they've done, as opposed to suddenly shifting and changing as you imagine they will.

That's just it, they HAVEN'T kept doing what they've been doing all along. Square used to have all of their cutscenes in FMV. In FFX and FFX-2, a small fraction of them were FMV. In Kingdom Hearts, they eliminated FMV almost entirely. This is called a pattern and it's pretty easy to see that they will likely throw out most of their FMV in the next gen for in game cutscenes just like everyone else in the industry has been doing.

Uh, what are you smoking? Square has always had some sequences done in game, all the way back to the Nintendo days.

Besides, FMV has a FIXED level of space it takes up. Going from CD to DVD alleviated much of the space concern, even with FMV.

A fixed level of space per minute. Much like the voice acting that flooded FFX's disc has a fixed space per minute. Doesn't mean they won't simply include more, especially if they listen to the cry for more open-ended options.

'It happened, but, uh, don't look at it. Really, don't. Instead, let's look at PC games, which have always had different amounts of data'. And because X-Com came on only a few floppies, cartridges will never need to get bigger? Riiiight.

Don't be a dense moron, space simply isn't a bottleneck today like it was in the Playstation days. During the end of the PS days, they were pushing four discs, today barely any games ship with more than one. That's a difference no matter how much you want to stick your fingers in your ears.

You calling anyone else dense in this is pretty fucking amusing. I won't deny that it's lessened, but you're ignoring the comparison of floppies and cartridges. Stop and think, for a change. No game had two cartridges. Yet, once we got CD's... Getting it yet? Or do you need it in a crayon?

PC games are not console games, simply put.

LOL, alright smartass, do tell, what are they going to use all of this extra space for? Higher res textures? Sorry, the PC has had those for years, and they still haven't exceeded DVD-9. FMV? Nope, FMV is not only dying as a standard for game cutscenes due to the improvements in graphics but it takes up a fixed amount of space and does not grow relative to the rest of the system.

FMV is both still around(Especially in the company being discussed in this tangent, you dishonest peice of shit.), and not going to vanish. Despite your lies, Square has not been 'phasing out' FMV for more in-game sequences; they had in-game sequences in FFIV and VI, dickwad.

Simply put, you can squish alot more content onto a BD-ROM. More of everything. Voices, FMV, pre-renders, large areas..

Will you ever fill a BD-ROM? Maybe not. There's a shitload of space. But just because only a few games went to two DVD's means dick. If you were a little more honest, you'd get that.

You made the statement that games could fill a BD-ROM disc, so now prove it. Don't refer to vague statements and analogies, give me a specific use for the space.

No, you bullshit artist. I've never said they'll fill a BD-ROM beyond making a comparison to a gas filling up. You don't know what 'analogy' is, do you? Fine, if you're too dumb for that: I don't think BD-ROM will be filled anytime soon.

Can you possibly give me some sort of direction to look for this? Last I heard they had un-frozen the specs.

Ken Kutaragi confirmed that the PS3 won't ship with a hard drive to Famitsu a while back. They simply can't afford to do so with the Blu-Ray drive standard.

Sony's PlayStation 3 will not come packaged with a hard drive, reports the latest issue of Famitsu. While the machine comes with a 2.5-inch hard drive slot, consumers will be required to purchase and install the actual drive separately.

The news means that Microsoft's Xbox 360 will be the only one of the three next-generation consoles that will come with a hard drive. It comes with a detachable "outrigger" 20GB hard drive by default. Nintendo doesn't plan on the Revolution having a hard drive since the console uses 512MB of flash memory for data saving.

For Sony, offering the hard drive separately will cut costs for the PlayStation 3, which is expected to sell at around 44,800 yen ($410) in Japan according to a recent analysis by Merrill Lynch Japan Securities.

In recent interviews with the Japanese press, Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi said that he expects the initial capacity of the PS3's hard drive to be 80GB. While Sony hasn't released any figures on how much its hard drive is expected to be priced at, a 2.5-inch 80GB in the current Japanese market costs around an average of 20,000 yen ($180). Sony sells its 40GB hard drive (SCPH-20401) for the PlayStation 2 for 10,479 yen ($95).

Given Sony's past strategies, it is possible the company will offer a hard-drive-bundled PlayStation 3 as well as a standard edition. When Sony launched its PSP in Japan last December, the company offered the handheld machine in two packages: a normal edition priced at 19,800 yen ($179), and a "Value Pack" edition priced at 24,800 yen ($224), which came bundled with a number of accessories, including a 32MB Memory Stick Duo for saving game data. However, in America, the PSP Value Pack is the only option available.

Speaking as a rather cash-strapped consumer, one gaming console with Blu-Ray included will probably cost me less in the long run than a gaming console and a Blu-Ray player. This was definately the case when getting a DVD player.

Do you really still use your PS2 as a DVD player? Honestly I can't stand doing it, it's got an obtuse interface and isn't nearly as smooth, feature filled or as good looking/sounding as my standalone unit. Sony COULD improve on these features, but they won't; Sony's consumer electronics division would kill them.

I did until I got a new TV. I know quite a few people who still do. A clunky interface doesn't drive folks away from it in hordes. You disbelief doesn't reduce the reality that it happens.

I'll agree here, but it comes down to what you want the system to do. The X-Box is dropping it all into lifelike graphics.

In all fairness, they both are. What I like particularly about the X360's graphics is the free 4x AA which should do a nice job of eliminating nasty jaggies in all games.

Pardon me if I laugh at the idea of anything in America not being nationalistic. I've seen plenty of jingoistic retardation in tech companies and other kinds.

It's not widespread like it is in Japan. If you follow the American market, you'd realize that these sorts of buyouts occur all the time. Remember the 80's? The average Joe might have been bitching, but the corporations were having a ball.

I'm speaking of tech companies, which has alot of patriotic jingoism in it from my examinations. I'm sure some companies love the checks, but pretending it's not present is pretty dumb. I can't say if it's the same as in Japan.

[The Kernel]

Uh, what are you smoking? Square has always had some sequences done in game, all the way back to the Nintendo days.

I was referring to the Playstation days where disc levels became adaquate for FMV in the first place. Don't be obtuse, you know very well what I'm talking about. As soon as FMV was introduced, Square loved it and used it in every cutscene they did. Now, they are using it less and less. That's called a trend.

A fixed level of space per minute. Much like the voice acting that flooded FFX's disc has a fixed space per minute. Doesn't mean they won't simply include more, especially if they listen to the cry for more open-ended options.

Are you aware of how much FMV costs? More space isn't going to encourage more FMV, it's too damn expensive to make in the first place. That's why they use in game wherever they can; it's cheaper and it allows them a lot more flexibility in what they do (characters can have different clothes, items, animations, etc).

You calling anyone else dense in this is pretty fucking amusing. I won't deny that it's lessened, but you're ignoring the comparison of floppies and cartridges. Stop and think, for a change. No game had two cartridges. Yet, once we got CD's... Getting it yet? Or do you need it in a crayon?

You ignorance is showing yet again. Games varied in cartridge size, be it in the NES or the SNES days; there wasn't a fixed cartridge size. Get it now?

FMV is both still around(Especially in the company being discussed in this tangent, you dishonest peice of shit.), and not going to vanish. Despite your lies, Square has not been 'phasing out' FMV for more in-game sequences; they had in-game sequences in FFIV and VI, dickwad.

You are comparing to a situation before FMV existed. Don't be an idiot, we are talking about the 3D era here, from CD onward.

Simply put, you can squish alot more content onto a BD-ROM. More of everything. Voices, FMV, pre-renders, large areas..

None of these things are being held back by availible disc space but by money. It costs a lot to put in more voices and FMV. As for large areas, maybe you missed my example of Halo using only a single CD? It doesn't take a lot of space to do big environments idiot, why don't you research this stuff before you post?

Will you ever fill a BD-ROM? Maybe not. There's a shitload of space. But just because only a few games went to two DVD's means dick. If you were a little more honest, you'd get that.

So you conceed that the rate of disc usage is slowing down. Gotcha.

No, you bullshit artist. I've never said they'll fill a BD-ROM beyond making a comparison to a gas filling up. You don't know what 'analogy' is, do you? Fine, if you're too dumb for that: I don't think BD-ROM will be filled anytime soon.

Idiot, your entire argument is predicated on the fact that Blu-Ray is cost effective for the benefit it provides. Unless developers can fill the discs, it's doesn't work on the bang for your buck analysis.

And you still haven't provided a single realistic scenario that necessitates Blu-Ray's increased space aside from wank fantasies about dozens of hours of FMV.

I did until I got a new TV. I know quite a few people who still do. A clunky interface doesn't drive folks away from it in hordes. You disbelief doesn't reduce the reality that it happens.

I'm sure it does happen, just less so than most people predicted when the PS2 first came out. Besides, it doesn't matter, I've already conceeded that Blu-Ray is great for playing movies.

I'm speaking of tech companies, which has alot of patriotic jingoism in it from my examinations. I'm sure some companies love the checks, but pretending it's not present is pretty dumb. I can't say if it's the same as in Japan.

If you want to provide some examples, I'm all ears. Before you answer though, think about a few things:

1) In Japanese business, the CEO takes personal responsibility for corporate failures, not by law, but because of a code of honor. They will often donate their entire fortunes back to the company (see Sega's ex-CEO) to offset losses under their term.

2) Japanese executives have been known to kill themselves during situations like the above.

I'm not saying that American companies don't have a certain amount of nationalistic pride, what I'm saying is that it isn't nearly as prevalent, nor is the level of racism against foreigners.

[Praxis]

Are there really console games currently shipping on multiple DVD-9s?

Which ones?

Star Ocean, which has almost NO FMV, ships on two DVD's for the PS2.

[Praxis]

Can you possibly give me some sort of direction to look for this? Last I heard they had un-frozen the specs.

Ken Kutaragi confirmed that the PS3 won't ship with a hard drive to Famitsu a while back. They simply can't afford to do so with the Blu-Ray drive standard.

Sony's PlayStation 3 will not come packaged with a hard drive, reports the latest issue of Famitsu. While the machine comes with a 2.5-inch hard drive slot, consumers will be required to purchase and install the actual drive separately.

The news means that Microsoft's Xbox 360 will be the only one of the three next-generation consoles that will come with a hard drive. It comes with a detachable "outrigger" 20GB hard drive by default. Nintendo doesn't plan on the Revolution having a hard drive since the console uses 512MB of flash memory for data saving.

For Sony, offering the hard drive separately will cut costs for the PlayStation 3, which is expected to sell at around 44,800 yen ($410) in Japan according to a recent analysis by Merrill Lynch Japan Securities.

In recent interviews with the Japanese press, Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi said that he expects the initial capacity of the PS3's hard drive to be 80GB. While Sony hasn't released any figures on how much its hard drive is expected to be priced at, a 2.5-inch 80GB in the current Japanese market costs around an average of 20,000 yen ($180). Sony sells its 40GB hard drive (SCPH-20401) for the PlayStation 2 for 10,479 yen ($95).

Given Sony's past strategies, it is possible the company will offer a hard-drive-bundled PlayStation 3 as well as a standard edition. When Sony launched its PSP in Japan last December, the company offered the handheld machine in two packages: a normal edition priced at 19,800 yen ($179), and a "Value Pack" edition priced at 24,800 yen ($224), which came bundled with a number of accessories, including a 32MB Memory Stick Duo for saving game data. However, in America, the PSP Value Pack is the only option available.

Gotta say that the quote is hilarious considering that they claim the XBox 360 is the only console with a built in hard drive, and it turned out the Revolution is the only one with ANY sort of built in storage.

Anyway; Sony's reasoning was not that it'd be too expensive, but that different users require different levels of storage and they'll never have enough as storage evolves over time, therefore they just won't include it and let the users choose what they want. Some just want basic downloadable content; others want to rip DVD's or use the PS3's network storage for backup.

[The Kernel]

Star Ocean, which has almost NO FMV, ships on two DVD's for the PS2.

Since I'm not familiar with the game, I can't speak to what they use the space for.

EDIT: Actually I just checked and the American directors cut is said to have a great deal of unlockable FMV cinema. Have you played this game? Can you speak to it?

But think about it like this, the game Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind only used up a single CD-ROM. When you think about how immense that game is, you'll realize that space isn't really being pushed the way many have suggested it is.

[The Kernel]

Anyway; Sony's reasoning was not that it'd be too expensive, but that different users require different levels of storage and they'll never have enough as storage evolves over time, therefore they just won't include it and let the users choose what they want. Some just want basic downloadable content; others want to rip DVD's or use the PS3's network storage for backup.

That's the PR reason given, but they could always have put in an upgradeable hard drive as standard if that was the case. No, cost is a huge part of this.

[SirNitram]

Star Ocean, which has almost NO FMV, ships on two DVD's for the PS2.

Since I'm not familiar with the game, I can't speak to what they use the space for.

EDIT: Actually I just checked and the American directors cut is said to have a great deal of unlockable FMV cinema. Have you played this game? Can you speak to it?

But think about it like this, the game Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind only used up a single CD-ROM. When you think about how immense that game is, you'll realize that space isn't really being pushed the way many have suggested it is.

Star Ocean, from my fanatical friends on the subject.. Takes up that much from sheer content. I got told eighty hours. It's likely overestimation, but it's definately up there in the HUGE category.

I'm holding off on continuing our scuffle while I try and track down hard numbers for FMV in Final Fantasies. I recall FFX having more than those before it, but obviously I can't claim that if I can't prove it.

[The Kernel]

Star Ocean, from my fanatical friends on the subject.. Takes up that much from sheer content. I got told eighty hours. It's likely overestimation, but it's definately up there in the HUGE category.

Yes, but from what I understand, the standard version took up only a single DVD. It's the Directors Cut with all the unlockable footage (including FMV and an extra game) that needs the extra disk.

Like I said, take a look at Morrowind. It's a mindboggling big game and it fits on a single CD-ROM.

I'm holding off on continuing our scuffle while I try and track down hard numbers for FMV in Final Fantasies. I recall FFX having more than those before it, but obviously I can't claim that if I can't prove it.

I'm almost certain that FF VIII (and even FF IX) had a lot more FMV than FFX, and certainly more than FFX-2 and Kingdom Hearts. Also if you look at the percentages of cutscenes done in game versus FMV, you'll see that while games like FF VIII did everything with FMV, games like FFX did most of it in game.

The next gen is only going to widen this gap; just take a look at the FF VII demo for the PS3. The quality of the in game cinematics (even though it is only a tech demo) is so high that the costs associated with FMV make it not worth it except during scenes of epic proportions that stress the game engine too heavily. And considering what Halo 2 was able to do as far as in game cinematics with an FPS engine, I don't think they'll be too many of those situations on next gen hardware.

[Praxis]

Star Ocean, which has almost NO FMV, ships on two DVD's for the PS2.

Since I'm not familiar with the game, I can't speak to what they use the space for.

EDIT: Actually I just checked and the American directors cut is said to have a great deal of unlockable FMV cinema. Have you played this game? Can you speak to it?

But think about it like this, the game Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind only used up a single CD-ROM. When you think about how immense that game is, you'll realize that space isn't really being pushed the way many have suggested it is.

If that's true then it's IGN that lied; IGN claimed there were almost no cutscenes.

[Ace Pace]

Leaving aside the problem with using IGN as a source in my opinion...

Later on realise that all 3 games don't fill up more then 1 DVD on the game of the year edition...

However, Morrowind does have a few couple of billion instances of repeating textures.

[Ghost Rider]

Aside from the argument, SO3 has very few cutscences, but an overdose of material.

Literally they just stuffed it with acouple extra dungeons, one being well into 200+ level monster(which is boring on a whole new level).

[The Kernel]

The point really is that although some games exceed the DVD limit, we are not going to see an enormous increase in disc space in the next generation.

Higher res textures are going to up space requirements a bit, but it's probably enough to mean that a greater percentage of games will come on two discs instead of one. This is really not a big deal when you consider the low cost of DVD.

Also, Blu-Ray isn't the ideal solution to the problem yet. Blu-Ray drives are going to be expensive themselves, and the costs of manufacturing media are going to be greater than DVD. This means that from a cost/benefit analysis, Blu-Ray is a non-starter.

If games were shipping today on four DVDs, I'd have a different opinion. But with the vast majority not even exceeding the limits of a single DVD (and when you factor in Blu-Ray costs), putting Blu-Ray in a games console is premature, at least with respect to games.

Realistically, the reason Sony wants Blu-Ray in the PS3 has nothing to do with space needs, it is all about market penetration. Sony wants Blu-Ray to win the next gen format wars and the PS3's inevitable install base is going to help them do that. It's a marketing decision, not an engineering one.