A question for all of you out there

[Imajor]

I am working on a Star Wars story, and have a situation coming up that I am not sure the answer to. In it we have Vader's Death Squadron Circa Empire Strikes back, and I was wondering A) How many ships comprise it, classes, etc; and B) In your opinion (provide Evidence if you want) about how many Vic Star II (equivalents) it would take to take on the Executor (assuming equal or greater skill amoung the attackers). Thanks!

[Elheru Aran]

Regarding your VSD vs. Executor question, as I don't know that much about Death Squadron--

This is *not* a confirmed number, it's just my opinion. I don't really have any evidence to back this up. Make sure you remember that.

Now. I would tentatively postulate that, with average captaining, four VSD's would be roughly equal to an ISD. If the Vics have good captains, and the ISD has a meh one, the numbers can fluctate, but the ISD has the defniite edge in firepower.

Now, the Executor is *massive*. It's got the firepower of, I don't know, 20-30 ISD's all together. Let's go with the lower number of that, 20.

You mentioned equal or greater skill among the attackers, so I'll go with my 4~1 ratio. You'd have to use around 80 VSD's-- a pretty significant fleet in its own.

Now, bear in mind that this number is a ridiculously low estimate, because the Executor is ungodly powerful even compared to the standard ISD-2...

Tell you what. This is Curtis Saxton's page on the Executor. Might be helpful for your purposes.

[President Sharky]

The ships comprising Death Squadron as of the Battle of Hoth are the Imperial-class (MK I and MK II) Star Destroyers Avenger, Devastator, Tyrant, Conquest, and Stalker along with the Executor-class Star Dreadnaught Executor. Though these ships form the core of the attack fleet, other ships have been known to be called in to serve with the squadron in times of need. Other Imperial Star Destroyers known to have served with Death Squadron include the Vengeance and Accuser.

As to the VSDs vs the Executor, I would guess that it would take more than 100 of them to take one on.

[Lord Revan]

We remember that the Executor has at least 12 fighter sqaudroon (which is way too low for a 17.6 km ship) and these are elite in both training and equipment while VSDs would second rate quipment even if the skill of the pilots was equal (normally fighters wouldn't count that much, but the SSD fighter wings are more then enough take down a VSD when it's shields are down.)

[The Jazz Intern]

How good are these admirals? are they thrawn, or more like Grand andmiral grant? At thrawn level, using Elheru's calcs. I'd say about 18, with a few strike cruisers and such, about five of them. Now at grant's level, about 26, because the executor, could ram them at the worst case senario.

[Ghost Rider]

How good are these admirals? are they thrawn, or more like Grand andmiral grant? At thrawn level, using Elheru's calcs. I'd say about 18, with a few strike cruisers and such, about five of them. Now at grant's level, about 26, because the executor, could ram them at the worst case senario.

This above has to be one of the dumbest fucking ways of calculating power I have seen in a long while.

A Star Dreadnought/SSD has over 5000 gun emplacements which put it at least 10 times a single ISD fire power(possibly higher depending on how many emplacements), if we take it on a linear scale which is aburd given both volume and projected power of the ship.

It has been shown canonically to be able to withstand 3 ISD's ramming it.

Thus anyone from Ackbar down to shipman Louis without sufficent firepower is screwed...tactical ability means nothing if you cannot HURT the fucking thing.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The ships comprising Death Squadron as of the Battle of Hoth are the Imperial-class (MK I and MK II) Star Destroyers Avenger, Devastator, Tyrant, Conquest, and Stalker along with the Executor-class Star Dreadnaught Executor. Though these ships form the core of the attack fleet, other ships have been known to be called in to serve with the squadron in times of need. Other Imperial Star Destroyers known to have served with Death Squadron include the Vengeance and Accuser.

As to the VSDs vs the Executor, I would guess that it would take more than 100 of them to take one on.

There are also the "twenty battleship commanders" refered to in the novelisation.

[Imajor]

Thats one of the reasons I'd asked. The guestimate I'd been using was the Executer, roughly 8-10 ISDs and maybe 5 or 10 other support vessels. BTW, on a semi-related note, were there Interdictors in service at that point, and if so, does anyone have a clue why they weren't included there-in? Only reasons I could come up with were A) Not enough in service at that point, and it got left out (unlikely as this was Vader's personal fleet) and B) Admiral Ozzel left it behind (giving another good reason for him to be killed by Vader). (Of course, I suspect the Real world explaination is that they hadn't been invented yet, but I am looking for a Star Wars universe explaination).

[NRS Guardian]

If we go by what Saxton said in the ROTS:ICS that it takes ~5 Recusants to defeat a VicStar or VenStar, and 1000 Recusants to defeat a Mandator-II-class Star Dreadnought. Considering the Executor replaced and thus is probably more powerful than a Mandator-II, it should take at least 200 Vics to reliably defeat the Executor.

[Elheru Aran]

Reliably, yes.

However, with even only a few more competent captains, if they can manage to surround the Executor and bring down a few sections of shield with the first wave, they should be able to damage it extremely with fewer ships than that. For example, you could simply pull the crews off some of them, accelerate them to hyperspace directly into the Executor's bottom shields, and then use half to keep the ship from spinning to present its dorsal shields, while the rest pound away. Once they get turbolaser bolts running through the hangars, and I'd bet a Vic could fit right into that motherfucking huge hangar, it'd be a simple enough matter.

Of course, they'd still suffer *horrendous* losses, and I have absolutely no doubt the area about the hangar bay is armed and reinforced for just such an eventuality... my estimate is henceforth upgraded to 100 for pretty-good captains, and probably about 200-250 for average captains.

[Ender]

If we go by what Saxton said in the ROTS:ICS that it takes ~5 Recusants to defeat a VicStar or VenStar, and 1000 Recusants to defeat a Mandator-II-class Star Dreadnought. Considering the Executor replaced and thus is probably more powerful than a Mandator-II, it should take at least 200 Vics to reliably defeat the Executor.

No, it can withstand 1000 Resucants. And with good reason too, I ran the numbers, after about 2 minutes there are too few Resucants left to pour on energy faster then the Mandator can dissipate it.

To answer the question, the total size of Death Squardon is ~400 ships. Publis has notes of what we know of its size and breakdown on his site in the sector navy bit.

As for Victories vs an Executor, estimate based of reactor size and ROTS ICS statements put VSDs at ~ 4.5*10^24 watts peak power. Estimates for an Executor are between 1*10^27 and 3*10^27 watts. So I'd say about 700 Victories to match an Executor for certain. Note however, this is for a straight up burly brawl. Using tactics and such I'd say 50 or so could do it. Hammer the bridge till those shield go down, take out command tower, and then take advantage of the loss of CnC to focus on another part.

[Imajor]

Yeah, that was the general idea, from an ambush, and doing as much damage as quickly as possible by any means neccessary.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

As for Victories vs an Executor, estimate based of reactor size and ROTS ICS statements put VSDs at ~ 4.5*10^24 watts peak power. Estimates for an Executor are between 1*10^27 and 3*10^27 watts. So I'd say about 700 Victories to match an Executor for certain. Note however, this is for a straight up burly brawl. Using tactics and such I'd say 50 or so could do it. Hammer the bridge till those shield go down, take out command tower, and then take advantage of the loss of CnC to focus on another part.

Only 50? Considering the huge firepower superioirity in the Executor, it can achieve one broadside kills or better on something like a Vic (hell, even the Shockwave was known to do this to a Vic, and that's no Executor or even close). Can 50 VSDs penetrate the bridge shields in 100 seconds - the time they'd have before they'd all die at a kill rate averaging one every two seconds?

Yeah, that was the general idea, from an ambush, and doing as much damage as quickly as possible by any means neccessary.

A lot depends on the fire plan of the Executor's Captain. If he uses the kind of shoddy fire plan he apparently used at Endor, you might get by with a few dozen.

If he's smart enough to concentrate firepower to overwhelm your shield dissipations, you are in deep shit. On a basic level, this is a cold game of Counterbattery, and your firepower is virtually unprotected compared to his.

So you might imagine a scenario where your ships match his in firepower. Given the latest stuff from the ITW, an Executor is worth 80 ISDs. So let's say that's worth in turn about 200 Vics.

You can use any firepower concentration plan you like, but the cold truth comes down to the fact that his firepower, is at least initially protected ... and yours, for all practical purposes, aren't. Let's say you've got a plan that would allow you, given 200 Vics worth of firepower, to penetrate his shields in 200 seconds.

You can see what's going to happen, right? He returns fire. With each salvo, plan on losing at least one of your Vics, probably more - the Executor can disable ISDs easily enough using only part of its armament on one side, so it seems reasonable it can disable a few VSDs at once if it puts its "heart" into it. With every shot, you lose firepower. Meanwhile, your firepower is temporarily stopped by the shield, so he loses no firepower. Uneven contest, no?

The key, I think, is to try and imagine how many ships you want left when major sections of his shields finally go down (so his guns are as unprotected as yours). Aim for having firepower parity with him when his shield goes down, and you'd probably have enough ships for the win.

[Lord Pounder]

The Shockwave however had what was described a "high energy" weapons. The impression i had gotten was that these where even more powerful than the usual Heavy Turbolaser batteries. Plus the ship is described at being larger than a standard ISD, possibly an Allegiance class. It's entirely possible that the Shockwave may have outgunned a standard Executor Class ship.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The Shockwave however had what was described a "high energy" weapons. The impression i had gotten was that these where even more powerful than the usual Heavy Turbolaser batteries. Plus the ship is described at being larger than a standard ISD, possibly an Allegiance class. It's entirely possible that the Shockwave may have outgunned a standard Executor Class ship.

Of course it is larger than a ISD. We know, however, that it can't be more than 8km from Darksaber. Don't get so caught up with names. "High energy" weapons are limited by the reactor. It is enormously unlikely Shockwave had anywhere close to Executor's overall firepower.

Oh, IMajor, BTW, hello, welcome. May I humbly ask that you think of a more descriptive thread title next time?

[FTeik]

Would the many missiles of the Victories be able to outbalance the huge difference in reactor- and probably firepower to an Executor or would the Admiral of a VSD-fleet be grasping for straws with this?

[Imajor]

That was my thought, I remembered the destruction of the Lusankya, and if I am remembering it right, it was done with either concussion missles or torpedos launched from converted freighters. I figure if freighters could do it with missiles, shouldn't Vicstars be able to do the same thing?

[Lord Pounder]

One torp salvo from the New Republic Victory Star Destroyer Moon Shadow was able to cripple Krennels ISD Mk 2 in Isard Revenge. Even though the shields where down on that side surely it would only take a few Vics to batter an Executors shields down and a couple more to cripple it using this tatic.

[President Sharky]

It was actually two VSDs, the Corusca Fire and the Selonian Fire, that destroyed the ISD MK. II Reckoning. The ships also had the advantage of attacking the unshielded side of the destroyer, not to mention that the ship had suffered the combined attack of another ISD MK.II and the Home One.

However, the example of the Lusankya does indeed show that 80 heavy proton torpedoes can collapse a section of an Executor's shield. Earlier on, when Lusankya was attacking Yag'Duh station, Captain Joak Drysso contemplated that a salvo of 300 proton torpedoes would completely collapse the SSDs shields, while subsequent salvos would obliterate the hull.

[Imajor]

Thats the scene I was remembering, thanks. Yeah, that was my thought, so, that 50 listed VicStars even in the 100 seconds someone gave earlier, seem like they'd be able to do significant damage in that time, especially if they start out from beyond turbolaster range.

[Jim Raynor]

The ships comprising Death Squadron as of the Battle of Hoth are the Imperial-class (MK I and MK II) Star Destroyers Avenger, Devastator, Tyrant, Conquest, and Stalker along with the Executor-class Star Dreadnaught Executor. Though these ships form the core of the attack fleet, other ships have been known to be called in to serve with the squadron in times of need. Other Imperial Star Destroyers known to have served with Death Squadron include the Vengeance and Accuser.

As to the VSDs vs the Executor, I would guess that it would take more than 100 of them to take one on.

There are also the "twenty battleship commanders" refered to in the novelisation.

-Is the novelization quote valid? The same scene in the movie doesn't show nearly as many officers in the Holonet conference. Also, is it possible that these "battleships" were really just ISDs? Did anyone see the holograms of Captains Needa and Lennox?

-What sources claim that the Conquest and Stalker were in Death Squadron? I've never heard of either one being a part of the group. The Vengeance is in Death Squadron, according to the CCG and The Dark Forces Saga. SWTC says that the Accuser was also in the group, and that Piett temporarily transferred his flag there when Vader took the Executor back to Coruscant after the events at Bespin. I trust Saxton, but I don't know what source he got that from.

-Most EU sources claim that there were 5 ISDs in Death Squadron, however in this old thread, Vympel said that he counted at least 8 ISDs in the movie.

-Tales of the Bounty Hunters says that there were a "half dozen" ISDs, and enough attack frigates and personnel carriers to "fill the sky." No details about these ships were given, so the frigates and troop carriers could be anything from Acclamators and combat variant Acclamator Star Frigates (my preference) or dinky WEG frigates like the Lancer and small shuttles and drop ships.

-MKSheppard used to have scans of old WEG sourcebooks online (I wish I was smart enough then to copy down that info), and one of them said that there was a VSD at Hoth. Does anyone remember the ship's name? If there was a VSD there, then it's highly likely that there were more.

[Perseid]

The number of VSD's needed would depend on if they are able to co-ordinate their attack against an SSD.

If they co-ordinate their attack then 100 VSD's could possibly destroy the Executor before it destroys all of them, remember that each VSD has 80 Concussion missile launchers so that'd give 8000 missiles hitting the Executor possibly at differents angles.

However if the attack is disorganised then the number of VSD's would be about 1000, since that way the Executor could only bring a handful of guns against each ship however it would be very costly.



Vader's Death Squadron had a core group of about 10 ISD's with support ships and of course the Executor, and could call in extra ships from the rest of the fleet whenever they needed them.

[President Sharky]

No, the core group of Death Squadron is 5 ISDs and the Executor. Multiple sources state this.

The Stalker has always been the identity of the ISD that ends the probe droid to Hoth (ref: ITW of SWT, Star Wars Encyclopedia)

The Star Wars Encyclopedia identifies the Conquest as the ISD that the Executor flies over and completely shadows in the first Imperial Fleet scene in ESB.

The Vengeance is likely one of the ISDs that are not part of Death Squadron's core fleet, but can be called in when extra forces are needed.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Would the many missiles of the Victories be able to outbalance the huge difference in reactor- and probably firepower to an Executor or would the Admiral of a VSD-fleet be grasping for straws with this?

Depends. If you are in Stackpole's "fighter-wank" world, you don't even need the Vics. Just get enough TIE Bombers with torpedoes that you can get 144 of them to deliver. But then, if you are in Stackpole world, you may only need 4 fighters and 16 torpedoes to successfully attack a Golan Battle Station...

If you are in the real-world ... well, I think IMajor should probably just fudge it a little. And everyone knows my usual positions on things like this in FanFics, this should tell you how bad the real position is that I'm allowing an exception...

especially if they start out from beyond turbolaster range.

That's be difficult, actually. Turbolasers actually have a longer range (75 space units) than missiles (60).

[Imajor]

Cool, I wasn't sure on the numbers for the ranges of the missles Vs Turbolasers. Thanks for the input everyone, I really appreciate it.

Most of my ideas of relative shield strengths vs ship strength vs fighters come from playing X-Wing and TIE Fighter, which was obviously overpowered from the Fighter point of view (IE, I remember a mission with TIE Bombers, that with 5 wingman, we took down a Shielded ISD with Torpedoes if I remember right)