Microsoft abandons customers & copyright to kiss up to H

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Microsoft abandons customers & copyright to kiss up to H

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

CNet reports that Windows next operating system, "Vista" (that's what Longhorn is called this week), will be designed with extensive countermeasures to prevent the owners of computers from using them in the ways that they want. These computers will be designed to break compatibility with current monitors, analog outputs, and currently shipping software, all to ensure that the restrictions dictated by enterainment companies are obeyed by Windows.

Microsoft is cutting its throat here. There isn't a single Windows user who wants a version of Windows that lets her do less with her music and movies.

Microsoft is also subverting copyright. Fair use and other public rights in copyright hinge on factors that can't be modelled in software. For example, people engaged in parody have a lot more flexibility in terms of how they use copyrighted works than people who are engaged in satire. The difference between parody and satire is pretty fine -- it's the kind of thing courts rule on, not the kind of thing that you get a computer to detect.

DRM apologists claim that DRM can be used to model the preponderance of fair uses, but this is completely untrue. Fair use almost always hinges on intention -- there isn't any software that is capable of reading a user's mind and determining intention.

So here come Microsoft, the great defenders of copyright, selling out both their business and copyright: creating devices that no one wants that models a copyright law that doesn't exist.

What's the use of having a swaggering bully of a monopolist if it can't muster the intestinal fortitude that Sony displayed from 1976-1984 when it battled in Congress and all the way to the Supreme Court for the right to manufacture VCRs despite Hollywood's insistence that these were tools of piracy?

In short, the company is bending over backward--and investing considerable technological resources--to make sure Hollywood studios are happy with the next version of Windows, which is expected to ship on new PCs by late 2006. Microsoft believes it has to make nice with the entertainment industry if the PC is going to form the center of new digital home networks, which could allow such new features as streaming high-definition movies around the home.

PCs won't be the only ones with reinforced pirate-proofing. Other new consumer electronics devices will have to play by a similar set of rules in order to play back the studios' most valuable content, Microsoft executives say. Indeed, assuring studios that content will have extremely strong protection is the only way any device will be able to support the studios' planned high-definition content, the software company says.
from boing boing.

Interesting, I did'nt know that it violated copyright law, still this confirmation of the nasty drm in vista makes the decision of whether to buy vist or not easy.
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Post by Manus Celer Dei »

These computers will be designed to break compatibility with current monitors,
Um...how can what monitor you use possiblly affect retarded copyright shennanigans?
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Post by General Zod »

Manus Celer Dei wrote:
These computers will be designed to break compatibility with current monitors,
Um...how can what monitor you use possiblly affect retarded copyright shennanigans?
I don't see how it can either, but the fact that people will have to buy new monitors to use this operating system is going to alienate alot of M$ users.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Manus Celer Dei wrote:
These computers will be designed to break compatibility with current monitors,
Um...how can what monitor you use possiblly affect retarded copyright shennanigans?
They want drm based on hardware (monitors), any new hd content will be coded to have very low quality in a non compatible monitor.

In other words, using the monitors without drm could be used to download hd content illegally.
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Post by General Zod »

Oh, and a link to the original article would be nice.
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Post by Hotfoot »

General Zod wrote:I don't see how it can either, but the fact that people will have to buy new monitors to use this operating system is going to alienate alot of M$ users.
Warning, hostility inbound.

So what? Boo-fucking-hoo, a few people who know what's going on are going to get pissed. So what? What are they going to do? Get a Mac (which may or may not be getting on board with this, I've heard it both ways)? Convert to one of the 32 delicious flavors of Linux/BSD? Please.

Microsoft has a stranglehold. People might not like it, but do you really think the user/user crowd is going to give a shit about this? At worst, most of them will probably wait until the prices on the new stuff comes down, while the enthusiasts will jump right on board, as always. There will be a small portion of users who will recognize this for the bullshit it is, but by and large, most people don't give a fuck.

Seriously, all Microsoft has to do is stop supporting XP and everyone is forced to get the new system. It'll offer plenty of shinies, too! Nothing entices people better than shinies. If Microsoft really wants to do this, nothing short of a government intervention will stop them, because they stand to make money hand over fist.

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Post by Sharp-kun »

Manus Celer Dei wrote: Um...how can what monitor you use possiblly affect retarded copyright shennanigans?
As I understand it, each monitor will have a code unique to it. If your monitor doesn't have a valid one, you won't get the best quality or the video won't play at all.

This isn't really Microsofts fault either. They either put it in, or apps like Media Player won't play stuff that uses this protection correctly (if at all). Apple are also implementing it I believe. Blame the MPAA etc.
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Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

Hotfoot wrote:
General Zod wrote:I don't see how it can either, but the fact that people will have to buy new monitors to use this operating system is going to alienate alot of M$ users.
Warning, hostility inbound.

So what? Boo-fucking-hoo, a few people who know what's going on are going to get pissed. So what? What are they going to do? Get a Mac (which may or may not be getting on board with this, I've heard it both ways)? Convert to one of the 32 delicious flavors of Linux/BSD? Please.

Microsoft has a stranglehold. People might not like it, but do you really think the user/user crowd is going to give a shit about this? At worst, most of them will probably wait until the prices on the new stuff comes down, while the enthusiasts will jump right on board, as always. There will be a small portion of users who will recognize this for the bullshit it is, but by and large, most people don't give a fuck.

Seriously, all Microsoft has to do is stop supporting XP and everyone is forced to get the new system. It'll offer plenty of shinies, too! Nothing entices people better than shinies. If Microsoft really wants to do this, nothing short of a government intervention will stop them, because they stand to make money hand over fist.

[/rant]
People will give a fuck if they have to buy new monitors. Even the average person will be up in arms about that.

In any case, with all of this DRM nonsense, it looks like pirated copies of software are going to be getting better and better than the ones you pay for. Way to reward the legimite customer, M$ :roll:
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Post by Sharp-kun »

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote: In any case, with all of this DRM nonsense, it looks like pirated copies of software are going to be getting better and better than the ones you pay for. Way to reward the legimite customer, M$ :roll:
Would you rather they didn't implement this, and then Windows simply won't play media using the new protection, or won't play it at its best?

If you don't like it, don't buy films etc that use it.

EDIT: Not buying Vista I imagine won't solve this, since if a DVD uses this protection, then you're going to need a player that supports DRM to play it. That means you'll have to get one, no matter what OS you use.
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Post by Hotfoot »

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:People will give a fuck if they have to buy new monitors. Even the average person will be up in arms about that.
Not really. Most people wait to buy new computers when a new OS comes out anyway. That way they know they can run it just fine. The "new monitor" cost gets bundled into the cost of the rest of the system. most people won't even notice the difference.
In any case, with all of this DRM nonsense, it looks like pirated copies of software are going to be getting better and better than the ones you pay for. Way to reward the legimite customer, M$ :roll:
Sounds more like the mandate of the MPAA/RIAA than Microsoft, to be honest. Microsoft is simply adding the unstoppable element to the plans.
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Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

Yes, you're both right. I shouldn't have added that last sentence, but the point remains. In the future, the quality of legitimate software will be significantly worse than it is right now if the DRM trend continues. It is not healthy to give people further incentives to pirate beyond just skimping on the price.
Hotfoot wrote:
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:People will give a fuck if they have to buy new monitors. Even the average person will be up in arms about that.
Not really. Most people wait to buy new computers when a new OS comes out anyway. That way they know they can run it just fine. The "new monitor" cost gets bundled into the cost of the rest of the system. most people won't even notice the difference.
There should be a significant fraction of Vista buyers who are hanging onto obsolete systems, though, especially among the computer-illerate general public.
Sharp-kun wrote:Would you rather they didn't implement this, and then Windows simply won't play media using the new protection, or won't play it at its best?

If you don't like it, don't buy films etc that use it.
My decision to withhold my dollars does not affect anyone but me, so it won't hurt Hollywood. The government is supposed to step in if companies start squashing fair use, but so far they've stepped in against consumers. All that's left to do is complain and wait until the various forms of DRM are cracked.
EDIT: Not buying Vista I imagine won't solve this, since if a DVD uses this protection, then you're going to need a player that supports DRM to play it. That means you'll have to get one, no matter what OS you use.
Until someone figures out a way to make a DRM-free backup copy, that is.
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Manus Celer Dei wrote:
These computers will be designed to break compatibility with current monitors,
Um...how can what monitor you use possiblly affect retarded copyright shennanigans?
The newer monitors have a DRM to prevent you from running anything they don't want you to.
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Post by Hotfoot »

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:There should be a significant fraction of Vista buyers who are hanging onto obsolete systems, though, especially among the computer-illerate general public.
True, but the question is, will that number dwarf the number of people who are getting new computers for their kids, or for college? If the growth outnumbers the people who just let their machines depreciate, MS still comes out on top, and with computers becoming more and more common, this is fairly likely. Also, eventually even the people who let their systems depreciate will have to upgrade or be forced out of support and new content, just as Windows 95 was phased out, and 98 after it, and ME after that, and so on. For a while, I refused to upgrade to XP, and stuck it out with 98SE. After a few years, that was no longer tenable. :-|
My decision to withhold my dollars does not affect anyone but me, so it won't hurt Hollywood. The government is supposed to step in if companies start squashing fair use, but so far they've stepped in against consumers. All that's left to do is complain and wait until the various forms of DRM are cracked.
Unfortunately, the government is going to listen to whoever brings them the most money, so long as every gets to keep their jobs. Problem is, how do you raise a stink about this that more people will respond to? It's very easy to fall prey to the "DRM or Illegal Piracy" fallacy.
Until someone figures out a way to make a DRM-free backup copy, that is.
It's bound to happen, but when and to what quality remains unknown. In the end, it's all data, and data can be manipulated, but it's going to have some serious lag time once the protection hits a certain point.
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Post by Embracer Of Darkness »

DRM can kiss my arse. It won't last anyway, it'll either a.) bottom out from unpopularity, or b.) will be hacked by pirates and hackers (I predict one week after its launch for this.)
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Post by Xon »

HighDef Content to Require New Monitors, the .303 bookworm you have already posted the same damn thing before.

Except this time with more Anti-Microsoft slant and utterly no explaining of wtf this is actually about.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Yeah, but it was'nt confirmed then and this had a bit more of information about this being a type of violation of copyright law.
(Also I didn't want to necro)
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Post by bilateralrope »

Sharp-kun wrote:
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote: In any case, with all of this DRM nonsense, it looks like pirated copies of software are going to be getting better and better than the ones you pay for. Way to reward the legimite customer, M$ :roll:
Would you rather they didn't implement this, and then Windows simply won't play media using the new protection, or won't play it at its best?

If you don't like it, don't buy films etc that use it.

EDIT: Not buying Vista I imagine won't solve this, since if a DVD uses this protection, then you're going to need a player that supports DRM to play it. That means you'll have to get one, no matter what OS you use.
Which would you do, pay for a new player or download an eaisly obtainable pirated version ?

If you have paid for a legit copy that won't work I can see no moral problem in getting hold of a working version for free.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I hate to agree with Hotfoot, but he has a point. The people are sheep; they will not "rise up", Microsoft will not face "consumer revolt", and Bill Gates will continue wiping his ass with hundred-dollar bills after Vista is released.

Microsoft could release a version of Windows that requires you to give blood samples before you use it, and people would still buy the fucking thing.
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Post by phongn »

Embracer Of Darkness wrote:DRM can kiss my arse. It won't last anyway, it'll either a.) bottom out from unpopularity, or b.) will be hacked by pirates and hackers (I predict one week after its launch for this.)
Don't make me laugh. HDCP will not be unpopular -- every HD-DVD or BD-ROM player on release will have the required HDMI output. And the protection schemes in HD-DVD and BD-ROM are considerably more sophisticated than those in DVD ... and that's not including HDCP itself (which I've heard rumours of is already flawed).

Furthermore, you'll still be able to play these discs ... just at 480p resolution if you don't use HDMI.
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Post by Embracer Of Darkness »

phongn wrote:
Embracer Of Darkness wrote:DRM can kiss my arse. It won't last anyway, it'll either a.) bottom out from unpopularity, or b.) will be hacked by pirates and hackers (I predict one week after its launch for this.)
Don't make me laugh. HDCP will not be unpopular -- every HD-DVD or BD-ROM player on release will have the required HDMI output. And the protection schemes in HD-DVD and BD-ROM are considerably more sophisticated than those in DVD ... and that's not including HDCP itself (which I've heard rumours of is already flawed).

Furthermore, you'll still be able to play these discs ... just at 480p resolution if you don't use HDMI.
Well, I wasn't just talking about DRM involving media. As far as I am aware, DRM is going to be expanded to encompass practically all sotware and hardware use, anything not authentic and certified specifically simply will not work (or will not work anywhere near as well) with your operating system.

Furthermore, I know it's "laughable" that DRM will be broken by pirates, but I recall them saying the same thing about DVD. Which, if I recall, was cracked by a 14 year old Swedish kid. No security is perfect.
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Post by phongn »

DVD's security was poorly implemented, I think Sony/Toshiba have learned. In addition, CSS is quite weak encryption and is inherently flawed; no such flaw has been demonstrated in AES, which withstood scrutiny from the non-government crypto community and the NSA itself.
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Post by Xon »

phongn wrote:
Embracer Of Darkness wrote:DRM can kiss my arse. It won't last anyway, it'll either a.) bottom out from unpopularity, or b.) will be hacked by pirates and hackers (I predict one week after its launch for this.)
Don't make me laugh. HDCP will not be unpopular -- every HD-DVD or BD-ROM player on release will have the required HDMI output. And the protection schemes in HD-DVD and BD-ROM are considerably more sophisticated than those in DVD ... and that's not including HDCP itself (which I've heard rumours of is already flawed).
HDCP itself is fatally flawed, as is any hardware solution which has the encrypt/decryption engine and the keys in the same package.

The thread on Ars linked to the article I linked to before(which was already confirmed!) has a discusion about it.
phongn wrote:DVD's security was poorly implemented, I think Sony/Toshiba have learned. In addition, CSS is quite weak encryption and is inherently flawed; no such flaw has been demonstrated in AES, which withstood scrutiny from the non-government crypto community and the NSA itself.
Doesnt matter what encryption they use, the stuff is designed to be decrypted by the end-user who has the actual hardware, the keys and the content.

It doesnt get anymore insecure.
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Post by Darth Wong »

phongn, you made reference to a system which could simply rotate old keys out and new keys in (in an earlier thread) and I asked how this system could possibly work unless all HD-DVD players are networked. You never responded; can I ask again how this system is supposed to work?
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Post by Xon »

Darth Wong wrote:phongn, you made reference to a system which could simply rotate old keys out and new keys in (in an earlier thread) and I asked how this system could possibly work unless all HD-DVD players are networked. You never responded; can I ask again how this system is supposed to work?
The blacklist comes on the medium itself.

Yes, great isnt it.
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Post by phongn »

Darth Wong wrote:phongn, you made reference to a system which could simply rotate old keys out and new keys in (in an earlier thread) and I asked how this system could possibly work unless all HD-DVD players are networked. You never responded; can I ask again how this system is supposed to work?
ggs mentioned that, though in this case it may be that the encryption on the video content itself is told to reject certain player keys.
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