(40k) Question About 1000 Marine Limit

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-08-30 06:43pm

Pcm979 wrote:Also, Games Workshop skewed the results of the 13th Black Crusade to give Chaos the win, but even with their blatant disregard for the Imperium's absolute space superiority the 13th Crusade failed at it's stated aim by a very, very wide margin.

Actually a friend of mine was responsible for that. Our games store had one of the twelve worldwide "events" cards. This friend (of sorts) is possibly the worst wargamer you will EVER encounter, and on the day that the card was due to be unsealed, he fought a battle that ended in a total massacre of his Imperium forces. The card was unsealed and thanks to the huge margin of victory for Chaos, Abbadons Planet Destroyer was able to proceed unhindered and start destroying shit.

I shit you not.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2005-08-30 06:47pm

I suppose you couldn't build a time machine and poison his coffee the day before or something?

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-08-30 06:52pm

Pcm979 wrote::wtf:

I suppose you couldn't build a time machine and poison his coffee the day before or something?

Oh, if only. The man is a true fuck-up.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2005-08-31 12:36pm

MRDOD wrote:The Astral Claws (?), for instance, split from the Imperium, but none of the other Chapters that fought them betrayed the Imperium like the Legions. And if a Chapter goes wrong, the other Chapters just cleanse them. Same as a Legion, only there'd be more Space Marines fighting more Space Marines- higher casualties, but a higher number to start with.

But that's moot, because that's a heretical idea and Emperor knows they have their reasons.

There are other chapters that have turned traitor and survived, such as the Violators and the Sons of Malice. They can survive by escaping into the EoT or some such place - though for the most part you are right that traitors are quickly purged.

weemadando wrote:Oh, if only. The man is a true fuck-up.

And who is this tool and why is he trusted with anything so important?

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-08-31 12:56pm

Nelson/HAR-HAR/Nelson

No seriously...how exactly did this Eye of Terror thing go down? I mean how was it operated? Did they just have the kids fight at these stores and then someone whips out a card...

"Sssss! Oh, sorry Jimmy, but you just caused the destruction of Planet XYZ and thirty billion lives...ICE BURN!"

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2005-08-31 04:12pm

a 1000 marine limit is really a misconception. There is no limit of the size of the 10th (scout) company, as it always varies in size due to recruitment, casualties, and promotion (scout to marine). Most company's will have a command squad in addition to their basic strength of ten squads (990 right there, including Captain, stdbr, appo, champion.). When a chapter is on campaign for an extended period of time, the strength can easily exceed 1000 as recruitment kicks up (per 2E codex). Librarians and Techmarines are also outside the company structure. You have Marines assigned to the armored vehicles, space vessels, etc.

For the SpaceWolves, I've assumed they have about 2500-3000 Marines. This a simple comparision, a normal chapter has up to or a little over 100 suits of Terminator armor. Each of the 12 Great companys can field around 20. two and a half times as many terminators= two and a half times as many marines, plus the additional marines as noted above

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2005-08-31 05:26pm

Andras wrote: For the SpaceWolves, I've assumed they have about 2500-3000 Marines. This a simple comparision, a normal chapter has up to or a little over 100 suits of Terminator armor. Each of the 12 Great companys can field around 20. two and a half times as many terminators= two and a half times as many marines, plus the additional marines as noted above

Only the Wolf Guard can wear Terminator Armour in the Space wolves. Wolf Guard are a part of the 1st Great Company.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-08-31 07:44pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Nelson/HAR-HAR/Nelson

No seriously...how exactly did this Eye of Terror thing go down? I mean how was it operated? Did they just have the kids fight at these stores and then someone whips out a card...

"Sssss! Oh, sorry Jimmy, but you just caused the destruction of Planet XYZ and thirty billion lives...ICE BURN!"

Pretty much what happens (as far as I understand it) is that games are played based of certain scenarios due to be played on certain days - the worldwide results of these scenarios are tallied and an outcome is determined.

However, the "event cards" (there were more than 12, my bad) had dates/times on them at which they were to be opened and revealed. Each one had a certain effect on certain circumstances. The massive loss that this dickhead had, skewed the local results rather badly (it had been close until then) and then, the card that was unsealed directly affected that scenario in the favour of the forces of Chaos. Thus the situation went from bad to worse, not only locally but on a VERY large scale.

That is my understanding of it...

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2005-08-31 09:14pm

Andras,

Yes, all that you've said is true. The "1000 marines rule" is pretty much just a description of the ten companies of ten squads of ten men organizational structure, and fails to take into account the Armoury, Space Fleet, Librarium, Apothecarium, etc.

Andras wrote:aMost company's will have a command squad in addition to their basic strength of ten squads (990 right there, including Captain, stdbr, appo, champion.).

I'm pretty sure that most of the "regular marines" and the Company Champion for the command squad are drawn from the regular squads in the company. Only the Captain, Chaplain, Standard Bearer and Apothecary are outside of the regular squad organization.

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2005-09-01 05:06pm

Lost Soal wrote:
Andras wrote: For the SpaceWolves, I've assumed they have about 2500-3000 Marines. This a simple comparision, a normal chapter has up to or a little over 100 suits of Terminator armor. Each of the 12 Great companys can field around 20. two and a half times as many terminators= two and a half times as many marines, plus the additional marines as noted above
Only the Wolf Guard can wear Terminator Armour in the Space wolves. Wolf Guard are a part of the 1st Great Company.

Each Wolf lord for each Great Company determines who is and isn't a Wolfguard in their Great Company. Each Great Company can feild up to 20 wolfguard in addition to the command officers (Wolflord plus Battleleaders).

According to the 2e SW codex, the Company of the Great Wolf stands apart from the 12 Great Companys, this Company contains the Chapter's Wolf Priests, Rune Priests, Iron Priests, and Dreadnoughts. It says nothing about wolfguard. On page 13 in the 'Space Wolves Warriors' section, it says 'every Wolf Lord of each Great Company has a personal retinue of of picked space marine warriors called the Wolfguard.'

Every wolfguard owes personal allegience to the Wolf Lord who picked him, and is not part of the Company of the Great Wolf. both 2nd and 3rd ed codexes limit wolfguard to no more then 20 models. In addition to the wolf lord and 20 wolfguard, there are trusted wolfguard who are promoted to command positions, these are the WG Battleleaders per 3rd codex, and are not part of the 20 wolfguard limit.

Currald- straight codex command squad members are deadly veterans of many campaigns who can take special skills. this implies they are different then the normal tactical or assault squad members of the line squads (ignoring the ability of traits)

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2005-09-02 10:42pm

I dunno. I never saw any special command squads in the pictures of the Entire Ultramarines Chapter. I would assume that the #1 squad of each company is composed of the most experienced marines, and would probably be chosen for the command squad when one is needed.

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2005-09-02 10:51pm

There's a picture of the entire Ultramarines Chapter? Somebody actually drew all 1000+ Marines? That's dedication.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2005-09-02 11:28pm

MRDOD wrote:There's a picture of the entire Ultramarines Chapter? Somebody actually drew all 1000+ Marines? That's dedication.

Models, fully painted. The only downer is that it was before the Land Raider was released mid-3rd Edition, and there's only one Thunderhawk in the shot. Obviously it doesn't include the fleet and other support.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2005-09-03 04:02am

Actually, they couldn't fit the whole chapter into one shot, so they split it into two photos. There are a total of three thunderhawks (the old metal ones) between the two shots. Yeah, not all of the support vehicles are shown, but all of the basic transports and the infantry are present. That was a hell of a project.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2005-09-03 05:59am

From Codex: Space Marines (3rd edition):

Ultramarines 4th company:
Captain
Chaplain, Apothecary, Standard Bearer
5 Veteran Sergeants
6 x 10-man Tactical squads
2 x 10-man Assault squads
2 x 10-man Devastator squads
4 Dreadnoughts
15 Rhinos, 15 Land Speeders (various types), 25 bikes, 5 attack bikes.

This company is at full combat strength

It seems the light vehicles (land speeders, bikes), are crewed by regular squad members, but I think the Rhinos are driven by additional Marines. I would also assume the vet sergeants are also part of 5 squads, rather than in addition.

So, total strength (inc. drivers): 119 Marines.

The Chapter HQ also includes Marneus Calgar, 41 Techmarines, 17 Apothecaries, 28 Librarians, 3 Chaplains, plus 10 vehicles, requiring 19 crew. At a very rough estimate, that makes at least 1,180 Ultramarines, plus Thunderhawk crew, spacecraft crew, scouts, Dreadnoughts, etc.

Annatar Giftbringer · Post by **Annatar Giftbringer** » 2005-09-03 07:15am

andrewgpaul wrote:From Codex: Space Marines (3rd edition):

Ultramarines 4th company:
Captain
Chaplain, Apothecary, Standard Bearer
5 Veteran Sergeants
6 x 10-man Tactical squads
2 x 10-man Assault squads
2 x 10-man Devastator squads
4 Dreadnoughts
15 Rhinos, 15 Land Speeders (various types), 25 bikes, 5 attack bikes.

This company is at full combat strength

It seems the light vehicles (land speeders, bikes), are crewed by regular squad members, but I think the Rhinos are driven by additional Marines. I would also assume the vet sergeants are also part of 5 squads, rather than in addition.

So, total strength (inc. drivers): 119 Marines.

The Chapter HQ also includes Marneus Calgar, 41 Techmarines, 17 Apothecaries, 28 Librarians, 3 Chaplains, plus 10 vehicles, requiring 19 crew. At a very rough estimate, that makes at least 1,180 Ultramarines, plus Thunderhawk crew, spacecraft crew, scouts, Dreadnoughts, etc.

I could be totally wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Rhinos and other larger vehicles are often crewed by marines from the reserve companies, and also that one of the tactical reserve companies are trained and equipped to be all bike mounted and the other to use all Land Speeders, when there is need to.

Wasn't it also stated somewhere that spaceship crews are mostly not marines, but rather a combination of servitors and chapter serfs, and that those marines that do serve aboard ships as crew often comes from the company whose captain is Master Of The Fleet?

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-09-03 12:28pm

Most of the crew of Space Marine starships are serfs, who are very well trained and equiped, and servitors. Marine starships have high levels of automation and are commanded by a few actual marines.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2005-09-03 04:55pm

There have been various conflicting data points about who drives the Rhinos. The old 1st edition books implied that most were driven by Tech-Marines, the 2nd edition books claimed that tactical marines drove them (which would reduce a companies infantry strength by a full squad), and somewhere else mentions reserve company marines. This would require troops in excess of an entire company, however. The most recent miniatures would seem to support the original, Rogue Trader-era fluff, as all space marines vehicals (except bikes and land speeders) come with tech-marine crew bits emblazoned with the Machina Opus. This would suggest that Tech-Marines are far more common than the force org chart in the 3rd edition codex would indicate.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2005-09-03 07:44pm

Actually, in the 1st-ed era, most imperial vehicles had an autopilot fitted as standard. I would think that Space Marine Rhinos are driven by servitors, possibly hardwired into the machine. Imperial Armour vl2 may contradict this; I think there's a cutaway diagram of a Rhino in there. The AdMech symbols may just indicate that they are built and maintained by techmarines, rather than actually driven by them.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2005-09-03 08:56pm

Well, the symbols are on the little guys you're supposed to have popping out of the hatches, firing the weapons, etc, not on the vehicle itself, for the most part.

andrewgpaul · Post by **andrewgpaul** » 2005-09-04 07:50am

Ah, my mistake. Anyway, my resident Space Marine nutter informs me that the vehicles are indeed driven by Space Marines. Possibly by 'retired' Marines - ones who've lost limbs, etc. The 1,000-Marine limit is really only on paper; I reckon the Inquisition have better things to do than exterminate Chapters who are 10% over their TO&E.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2005-09-04 12:01pm

And, once you've accounted for the fact that few companies are at full strength, it probably evens out to around 1000 marines per chapter.