Allow me to rant....boc120 made me ashamed

[Magnetic]

boc120 has once again single handedly given a butt load of fodder to you all when it comes to mocking fundies. It shames me that I go to such a church. I go there for my wife (I've not yet told her of my 'backsliding') and because I enjoy playing the bass.

What makes me angry about what boc120 did is that he comes on here, probably with some dire sense of urgency, 'trying and reach those athiests', most likely with a soon to be "pat on the back" that he did his part. What part is that? To tell the non-believers about Jesus. It has nothing to do with whether anyone accepts it. He's done his part. Yes, I've heard that many times in church. "It doesn't matter if they believe it. We are called to go and tell them."

It is obvious that all boc120 did was cut and paste 'cookie cutter statements' that (probably) pretty much any forum board has heard before. That's bad enough, but to actually start a "questions and answers" thread, spout the traditional christian responses, then say that he's done because people cussed at him, that is just lame.

boc120, I hope you are still lurking on here. You haven't done any part "for the kingdom", rather all accomplished was to give the members of this board more reason to look upon christians as a bunch of moronic losers.

You answered none of the questions that were posed, completely side stepping them with common cut and paste material that proved nothing. Next time you try to engage people in a forum, have the guts to remain in a debate that you start, have something of quality to say, and by ALL means, quote whomever you're responding to!!

I'm sure that most of the people on here weren't effected inversely by your presence. "Just another fundie moron. . . . " But for me (technically still being in the christian religion), you have brought nothing but shame to the whole belief system. Congratulations on a job . . . . . . .done.

[SirNitram]

I just feel I need to actually be nice. No one fucking laugh, I'll kick you. In the nards.

(technically still being in the christian religion)

Don't blame yourself. Yes, you share a religion with this fucktard. Broadly, as you're likely straying from Biblical Fundie Land to the land of Liberal Christianity, where people come to realize there's such a thing as mythology and fable in the Bible, and that what Jesus was fundamentally about was getting along with folks. That maybe God might have pushed things this way, but it's not modelling clay and magic words, but the things science has uncovered(This is where me, being a Deist, points out that it's rather more impressive to ignite a fusion reaction in hard vacuum by using billions of tons of hydrogen than to just say 'Let There Be Light' and hang a glowy).

You aren't a fundie. We've got lots of non-fundie Christians here. I'm married to one of them. Don't beat yourself up too hard for belonging to the same religion. You don't see me hating myself for sharing my continent of birth with Hitler, right?

[Lord of the Abyss]

Don't feel too bad. Like I said in the thread that got him banned :

And as others have said, there are other Christians here; somehow they manage to avoid acting like a total fanatic loon.

boc120 isn't a reflection on you any more than Fred Phelps is.

[Magnetic]

I just feel I need to actually be nice. No one fucking laugh, I'll kick you. In the nards.

(technically still being in the christian religion)

Don't blame yourself. Yes, you share a religion with this fucktard. Broadly, as you're likely straying from Biblical Fundie Land to the land of Liberal Christianity, where people come to realize there's such a thing as mythology and fable in the Bible, and that what Jesus was fundamentally about was getting along with folks. That maybe God might have pushed things this way, but it's not modelling clay and magic words, but the things science has uncovered(This is where me, being a Deist, points out that it's rather more impressive to ignite a fusion reaction in hard vacuum by using billions of tons of hydrogen than to just say 'Let There Be Light' and hang a glowy).

You aren't a fundie. We've got lots of non-fundie Christians here. I'm married to one of them. Don't beat yourself up too hard for belonging to the same religion. You don't see me hating myself for sharing my continent of birth with Hitler, right?

Thank you, SirNitram, for your reply. I just see people like this and say to myself, "That's why I'm no longer a fundamentalist." A year ago, I would be sitting here at my computer saying to boc120, "Yeah! Preach it, brother!" The same as when I dropped my "Art of the Ice Age" class, because the professor stated, "...and if any of you believe in a young earth, please see me afterwards....."

I just see people like this boc120 guy, people on TBN network, and the like and realize that they may drive more people away than they bring in nowadays. I'm not sure what's happening, but as I said in boc120's post, I never questioned things in the bible when I didn't know the controversies out there. Sometimes I think of the line by Cypher in The Matrix, "Ignorance is bliss". Probably the reason why I don't show what I've learned to my wife. I don't want her to be overly burdened as I've been since I started on this journey. It's okay that she is more fundie than me. She isn't "up in people's faces" about it. In fact, we occationally hang out with a lesbian couple from time to time (one of her work friends and SO).

Anyway, I appreciate your kind words. I had to chuckle to myself a bit with your first line, though. Made me think of the South Park episode were Cartman was the Tooth Fairy, ". . . . . . or I'll kick you squaw in d' nuuuuuts."

[Frank Hipper]

My older brother is an atheist who attends church so his kids have a social life away from school, my sister in law (who actually is a believer) is a deacon at their church, as well.

He mockingly (mocking, but not mean spirited) calls her "The Holy Presence".

[Magnetic]

Don't feel too bad. Like I said in the thread that got him banned :

And as others have said, there are other Christians here; somehow they manage to avoid acting like a total fanatic loon.

boc120 isn't a reflection on you any more than Fred Phelps is.

I appreciate your input as well.

[Gunhead]

Fundies like Boc120 come and go and I for one hardly notice them anymore.
We're all just generally fed up with them as they all come here, go through the same motions, get kicked out and banned. Most people here are more offended by their lack of judgement and general lack of mental faculties, than they are about what they say. The average fundie doesn't even pack the necessary gear to insult people properly. Some lack the necessary gear to form a sentence. The best they usually come up with is something like: "You is t3h 3v1l ath3ists!!1 U wi11 a11 burn1n4tor 1n t3h h3ll!!!1"
Then we go:"Go fuck your cousin/sister/mother who are actually one person fuckwit."

So there's no need to feel bad. People like boc120 come and go and it's just easier to ignore them and kick them out.
I do feel sorry for those moderate religious people who get a bad name because of idiots like Boc120.

-Gunhead

[Surlethe]

The people here are logical enough not to commit the fallacy of identifying boc120's behavior with that of every Christian. I agree boc120 generally reflects badly on Christianity in general, because he identifies with the things which are bad within the religion; however, there always are, and always will be, people like him. The trick is to realize boc120 is not how most people see Christians.

[Magnetic]

The people here are logical enough not to commit the fallacy of identifying boc120's behavior with that of every Christian. I agree boc120 generally reflects badly on Christianity in general, because he identifies with the things which are bad within the religion; however, there always are, and always will be, people like him. The trick is to realize boc120 is not how most people see Christians.

Well, that's good to know!

You know, The Matrix is one of my favorite movies. One of Morpheus's lines makes me think of hard core fundies. A lot of truth can be found in his speach that says:

The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

Lots of good similarites in that movie.

[Magnetic]

Here's another perfect example of what I'm finding so horrible, an idea that I overlooked before being on this new path.

In the other forum I get on, someone was mentioning how they would (if they could) save everyone from Hell, because no one deserves that kind of 'punishment'. A person going by the name Melted said this crap:

So if you had the power to save everyone, you would use it? God has this power, yet He does not use it. You are in essense saying you are more GRACIOUS or KIND or MERCIFUL or FORGIVING or RIGHTEOUS then God Himself? The proper thing to pray is that God's will be done, not yours. God's will is obviously that hell exist and be populated. Hallelujah! Come Lord Jesus and make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet! Trod the winepress until the blood is as high as a horse's bridle!!

One of the other people, who would be more on side of moderate/liberal christian said:

"Jesus wept."

And we wonder why people reject our God. I literally feel like crying myself. I think I'll stay away from the board for a while.

I wasn't so nice. I replied:

Yes, mikebr . . . .I share in your exact feelings. It's this kind of hate mongering that MANY people see of the christian religion which is supposed to be based upon unconditional and perfect love. The venom that you spewed, melted, is exactly what has cased many people to be violently turned off by christianity. Militaristic sabre rattling. You just can't wait to see them people burn for their lack of belief.

Completely unbelievable.

[wolveraptor]

CALVINIST ARGUMENT, aka TERTULLIAN'S ARGUMENT
(1) If God exists, then he will let me watch you be tortured forever.
(2) I rather like that idea.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

[nickolay1]

ARGUMENT FROM STUPIDITY
(1) I am stupid.
(2) God made man in his own image.
(3) There are all horrible disasters going around the world.
(4) God is omnipotent in power.
(5) God is too stupid to do anything about these things.
(6) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM PERSECUTION (II)
(1) Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
(2) I am an idiot.
(3) People often point that out.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

[wautd]

came along this gem at the (where else) rapture ready forums

IF and a big if here, God for some reason did bring judgement to this city He would be COMPLETELY justified in doing so. ALL of mankind deserves worse than hurricane Katrina. Which brings up a very interesting point. Why isn't there more chaos in a world full of sinful people.

God is GRACIOUS and patient. Though He would be justified in wiping out all of mankind for our evils He has told us in His word the Bible why he hasn't. etc etc blah blah blah yada yada ya...

[DPDarkPrimus]

It's funny how Jesus Christ was all about tolerance and acceptance, and yet the people who give Christianity are anything but tolerant and accepting.

[Rye]

It's funny how Jesus Christ was all about tolerance and acceptance, and yet the people who give Christianity are anything but tolerant and accepting.

Whoa whoa whoa there, kitten. He wasn't the hippie you've been told, he was a racist, threatening bastard, threatening one and all that didn't believe him or were unpleasant to his followers with destruction, told people to only try to convert jews, spouted remedial philosophy centuries behind others of the time.

Sure he said some good things, but fuck, so did Hitler. If I said "honour your parents, give to charity, oh and if you don't accept me as the next prophet, God will kill everyone in your city, and when God comes, I want the faithful to bring all the unbelievers in front of me and kill them" ... that does not seem too tolerant to me.

[CaptJodan]

The sad truth is, I was willing to at least hear boc120 out on any points he might try to make. Mag and I are kinda on the same little path right now, though I think I'm a bit more...pessemistic about God right now. But I would have liked to have heard some real, honest attempts at debating the issues, and perhaps bringing to light something not considered. Yeah, I know it's unlikely, but I wanted to see him really answer the questions posed.

The problem is, of course, that he didn't. He sprouted religious nonsense that, as Mag put it, doesn't help at all. It only proves SDN's point (no big surprise here, people). Thus far I haven't really seen these hordes of decent debaters or Christian fundies with decent, hard to shoot down arguments on this forum, and I sadly thought this one might be one of them. I know most on the board probably get sick of these guys, but I'd like to see someone make some points, if just to give me another perspective.

I guess it's too much to ask, and it's sad. It reminds me of a recent conversation with an old friend of mine turning more fundie with each passing day (used to be moderate). I asked him how he justified his belief in God with what he did in the OT. As SDN predicted, the line about "Well we mostly focus on Jesus" popped up, but then he admitted that he couldn't answer my questions, and I should go to a higher power (IE his priest) to seek the answers. I wanted to say, but didn't, that if he couldn't answer my question, why didn't that concern him? If he couldn't explain away the mass murder of countless thousands including women and children, then how could he be so unwavering in his belief? It's got to be fear of God. You can't love someone like this.

It is true that most people I meet are not Fundie Christians. Most of those I meet I never know what their religion is. They don't push it on me, or even mention it, unless asked, and then they'll say they're X Christian religion. The fact that they keep their faith as something private is....well the way it should be. Unfortunately....with every passing day it seems like there's also more of this kind of stupidity. (and it's hard to see a friend going down this kind of path)

[Magnetic]

CaptJodan, I've heard the replies of the OT killings before. Basically, it all boils down (as they put it) to God wanting to keep the Jewish line pure from the influences of other religions. And as they say, the Jews weren't the aggressors. They were being attacked by these other peoples so were just defending themselves.

Oh, and the main reason they give is, "God is God. He made us, and has every right to destroy us (because we are all sinners and deserve death), and who are WE to question His judegment and will?"

[SirNitram]

Oh, and the main reason they give is, "God is God. He made us, and has every right to destroy us (because we are all sinners and deserve death), and who are WE to question His judegment and will?"

At the risk of thinking logically, wouldn't we be the folks who ate from the Tree Of Knowledge, thus gaining the ability to judge acts to be Good or Evil? Therefore, wouldn't it follow that we have the responsibility to judge the acts of those we perceive?

[Magnetic]

Oh, and the main reason they give is, "God is God. He made us, and has every right to destroy us (because we are all sinners and deserve death), and who are WE to question His judegment and will?"

At the risk of thinking logically, wouldn't we be the folks who ate from the Tree Of Knowledge, thus gaining the ability to judge acts to be Good or Evil? Therefore, wouldn't it follow that we have the responsibility to judge the acts of those we perceive?

Nope! That act of 'knowing Good and Evil' was a negative point on man, not one of a positive nature, one that God didn't want us to have. Of course, then why was the tree there? Anyway, our 'judgement' would be considered flawed as opposed to God's.

Now, surely knowing Good and Evil isn't the 'sin' that they did. Rather the disobedience of eating what God said not to. Seems a shame to condemn the entirety of people throughout the rest of time because of simple disobedience.

Hmmmmm. . . if this was such a perfect garden, why would God have let the "evil serpent" in there?

I'm getting sidetracked here.

[SirNitram]

Oh, and the main reason they give is, "God is God. He made us, and has every right to destroy us (because we are all sinners and deserve death), and who are WE to question His judegment and will?"

At the risk of thinking logically, wouldn't we be the folks who ate from the Tree Of Knowledge, thus gaining the ability to judge acts to be Good or Evil? Therefore, wouldn't it follow that we have the responsibility to judge the acts of those we perceive?

Nope! That act of 'knowing Good and Evil' was a negative point on man, not one of a positive nature, one that God didn't want us to have. Of course, then why was the tree there? Anyway, our 'judgement' would be considered flawed as opposed to God's.

The heavy implications of eating from both the Tree Of Knowledge and the Tree Of Life is that God himself got some of his nature from them.

Now, surely knowing Good and Evil isn't the 'sin' that they did. Rather the disobedience of eating what God said not to. Seems a shame to condemn the entirety of people throughout the rest of time because of simple disobedience.

It's essentially a Papa tale. 'Do what I say! Don't ask why!'.

Hmmmmm. . . if this was such a perfect garden, why would God have let the "evil serpent" in there?

This is what happens when your fables are borrowed from other cultures. Your 'almighty' God is just a human with knowledge and time on his hands. Which, admittably, makes sense if you take a certain point of view; that is, with enough understanding of the physical universe, we could, in theory, make our own stars or worlds or life.

I'm getting sidetracked here.

S'alright.

[Justforfun000]

I'm getting sidetracked here.

Easy to do when you have a thinking brain that keeps finding holes in the material that are bigger than Paris Hilton.

[CaptJodan]

CaptJodan, I've heard the replies of the OT killings before. Basically, it all boils down (as they put it) to God wanting to keep the Jewish line pure from the influences of other religions. And as they say, the Jews weren't the aggressors. They were being attacked by these other peoples so were just defending themselves.

It's quite clear, then, that they haven't actually read the Bible, huh? It's hard to mistake the clear passages that denote that these poor people were in the land that was destined for the Jews, that God didn't send a memo ahead to warn them that they might want to get out before he smites them all, and that he sent his people against these unknowing people to be raped, murdered and pillaged.

It really truly is frightening when you see people like some of the quotes that have been posted here, basking in the glory of God's hand as it crushes people who don't follow him. Come on, these are some really sick motherfuckers. Most level headed more liberal Christians would never go around wishing that God kill this group or that group. They wouldn't be waiting poised for any sign they precieve as God to come forth and tell them that they should go out and murder homosexuals or Jews for it is all part of Gods mighty plan.

It's just truly frightening. Those are were the Hitlers of the world come from.

[Magnetic]

Thanks for the replies again, guys.

On the "why God allowed a serpent in the Garden of Eden", this is the reply I've heard (and I paraphrase). "God knew that Adam and Eve's decision would cause sin to enter into the world. It was all with a purpose. After they were kicked out of the Garden, this is when we start seeing the 'blood sacrifices' to atone for sin, because 'without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.' This was all put into place because of what Jesus would eventually do, become the 'blood sacrifice' for all sin. Why, because God wanted people who truly worship him of their own free will, thus the instances in the Old Testiment, so that those who believe will be in heaven, away from Satan and his deception . . . . . . "

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Of course, one could ask, why not have this creation that way from the beginning, thus destroying any evil forces before hand. Would people still have "free will" outside the effects of an evil force, and would they, at that time, consider NOT worshipping God regardless of not having a 'sin nature'? Would that, in effect, make "free will" the 'sin', and as such, was given to us by God in the first place?

Holes. The holes! My brain has been on quite a ride these past several months. Coming up with these questions, all while the fundi brainwashing tells me I'm "on thin ice thinking this way."

[CaptJodan]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Of course, one could ask, why not have this creation that way from the beginning, thus destroying any evil forces before hand. Would people still have "free will" outside the effects of an evil force, and would they, at that time, consider NOT worshipping God regardless of not having a 'sin nature'? Would that, in effect, make "free will" the 'sin', and as such, was given to us by God in the first place?

Holes. The holes! My brain has been on quite a ride these past several months. Coming up with these questions, all while the fundi brainwashing tells me I'm "on thin ice thinking this way."

All very interesting questions, and it's enjoyable to see someone else wrestling with the same issues I am, in a way.

Basically, I think it boils down to the fact that God really doesn't want us to have free will. Free will, in his view, is that we freely accept our lot in life as his....basically slaves. We are to worship him, bow before him, yadda yadda ad nausium, all with a smile on our face, and a geuine one at that. I gotta tell ya, living in a free society, this isn't an appealing option for me.

God himself, contrary to the popular belief and if we take passages literally as we're supposed to, has sinned and has done, or thought to do evil acts (as noted on Mike's site). God is not impervious to what he considers sin, and thus WE in Heaven will not be impervious to it either. (How do you think Satan fell in the first place, after all?) Thus, in order for God to get exactly what he wants, and for us to do what he wants, some things have to happen.

1. He has to take those who are, clearly, fundies. Fundies go to Heaven because they truly, without a shadow of a doubt, believe wholeheartedly in God's every action, be it mass murder, genoicde, you name it. Whatever he wants to do, that's fine with him.

2. Now here's the kicker. God then most likely has to TAKE AWAY the ability for us to know right from wrong. God hates that we have any power equal to him. After an eternity of living with God, even a few Fundies may begin to question his orders. Again, Satan did. So take away the original "sin". Make sure that we know not how to tell right from wrong, and thus are COMPLETELY DEPENDANT on God for our ability to have a "moral compass" such as it is. This makes it less likely, though not impossible, that decenters will arise, and by taking only those brainwashed enough to fully throw themselves at him also lowers the chance further of rebellion in the ranks.

Nothing of what we are taught makes sense anymore. We're to believe that God is all knowing-seeing-etc but we see clear examples that make it impossible to believe that tripe. IF we are to believe it in any way, the only way to justify it is that God is play acting all the way. His anger is a show, because he knew x-y and z were going to happen. The deaths he created, the rules he instated to be broken, all a big show for Heaven and Hell and the rest of the universe (as the SDA religion believes, since we're not worthy to make contact with other races), are all a stage act put on for their benefit. Our suffering, then, is his fun. "Look what I can do". He couldn't just write a memo, he had to make this long, drawn out process with many, many steps that don't make any kind of logical sense (including Jesus' time on Earth).

I still have thoughts like you say...that my thinking is wrong, that I'm going to burn in eternal hellfire if I keep thinking this way and keep coming this to board where the evils of Wong will corrupt my mind with knowledge and logic, and a mind is a terrible thing to actually use.

But if God is real and is exactly or even closely related to the God seen in the Bible (and this is my dad's current position on the subject. He believes all of it was real, and is a YEC), then maybe I don't want any part of him. Maybe the choice God is giving us is between two completely WRONG answers. If that's the case then, A, hope for a third alternative, and B, barring that, I guess I go to Hell. My ex-religion says I won't burn forever. God'll come and mop up Hell and destroy it, hence I will cease to exist. It may well be a far sight better than existing without freedom of choice.

[wolveraptor]

How would God be afraid of rebelliousnes? He's fucking God. With a snap of his holy fingers, he could cause everyone's own skeletal structure to start attacking them. Their ribs could suddenly tear free from the body, splitting the sternum down the middle, and eventually pull free altogether.

That would totally kick ass to see, though.

Which makes me wonder why God waits forever to kill Satan too.

I don't think these religions were made to be good intellectual excercises.