Modern tank vs Mobile Suit, serious calcs included.

[Dendrobius]

Mobile Suit numbers (with REAL PHYSICS CALCULATIONS!)
This is a bit of a follow on from the previous tank vs MS thread (Zaku IIs vs T90), I just want show people that if we apply physics to look at and analyse MSs they are hugely underrated and also that tank advocates (in particular MKSheppard) often hold erroneous concepts that can be refuted by physics/mechanics.

Mod, please at least look at this before locking it, I did my homework and there is serious calculations in here and not just conjecture and crap.

Proof of round going 5km/s:

10km engagement range, 2 second observed travel time = average velocity of 5km/s
Procedure: We see muzzle flash, we count 2 seconds, we see impact.
10km was quoted by character on screen and believable in scene (pilot had to use maximum zoom and the visuals were still iffy, etc)
2 seconds was counted by me, SAMAS and somebody else independently (SylasGaunt?) on both DVD and VCD

Proof of no need for ridiculous elevation:

Here, MKSheppard, let's see who REALLY needs that WWI battleship book, or maybe just even a high school physics textbook!

Round drop distance can be calculated by basic formula
s = u * t + .5 * a * t ^ 2, one of the basic constant acceleration equations, where s = distance, u = initial velocity, t = time and a = acceleration.
In this case u is zero, t is 2 seconds, and a = g = 9.8m/s
Drop distance = .5 * 9.8 * 2 ^ 2 = 19.6 metres
Or, over a distance of 10km, which was travelled in 2 seconds, I would need to elevate my barrel by:
tan (theta) = 19.6 / 10000
Theta = .11 of a degree

In other words, the cannon needs to elevate by around 1/10 of a degree to compensate, and seeing an apex of around 14m over a distance of 10km, the path would appear very straight. Weight has nothing to do with it and aerodynamics does not apply unless the projectile generates lift, in which case it's even BETTER for me.

So, anybody else wants to claim that at 10km there MUST be a horrible drop, and the barrel must be elevated substantially?

Ground Pressure:

MKSheppard, you keep going on and on about ground pressure, about how MSs would apply more pressure to the ground than a T90 and thus sink when tanks can go. BAD NEWS!

T90 stated ground pressure = .938kg/cm^2 or 9380kg/m^2

Zaku has two feet, each of which are roughly 5m x 2.5m size (measured from 1/100 MG Zaku model kit I own), or 25m^2 total area, so a weight of 60 tons would give 60000/25 or 2400kg/m^2

Or in other words, 3.9 times less!

OK, tell me again with a straight face, WHICH ONE'S GONNA SINK INTO THE GROUND FIRST?

Proof of speed:

In the series we saw a Gouf Custom running for all it's worth.
Count of 4 strides per second, 6m per stride (scaled from foot size), giving 24m/s or roughly 86km/h, fully loaded.
So a Zaku going at 90km/h isn't outrageous, the Gouf had shitloads more equipment on it as well

Proof of capability of no shattering at 5km/s

Quite easy, energy needed to shatter projectile is supplied entirely by the projectile's motion and its weight. So the 5kg DU core of the M1A1 which doesn't shatter at 1.8km/s can be matched by a .648kg DU round at 5km/s, and it will still not shatter. This is a minumum though, you realise. DU should still have much headroom, so round shattering isn't really a problem, it can be compensated for!

Proof of round being NOT ultralight:

We assume that all KE generated by round is absorbed by the thing that fires it in the form of recoil.

M1A1:
KE = 1 / 2 * m * v ^ 2 = .5 * 5 * 1800 ^ 2 = 8.1MJ
Magella:
FOR SAME RECOIL
m = KE / (.5 * v ^ 2) = (8.1 * 10^6) / (.5 * 5000 ^ 2) = .648kg (!)
For your proposed recoil, I would assume 1/10 to be reasonable?
By same method, the round would weight .0648kg, or roughly 65g...

If your theory's right, and that the Magella's firing HE, well, dude, 65g of MSG HE = 3500g of T90 HE, as you people keep saying that the effects of this shell has to be HE. Insane, inane, and obviously, unworkable.

F = m * a
F, force from crosswind
m, mass of the shell, is in contention
a, acceleration (in this case lateral to path), is what we're looking at.
If your shell is small (small m), then obviously for a given F your a will be high, and that will mean bigger discrepancy between aim point and actual landing point. Say for a 20km/h crosswind, 4000 metre range

M1A1 round:
Force from wind
= Cd * (.5 * density of air * wind cross sectional area of round * wind velocity ^ 2)
Cd obtained from Drag coefficient table, after calculation of Reynold's Number, assume round is similar to smooth circular cylinder
Re = (wind velocity * diameter of round) / Kinematic viscosity of air
= (5.56m/s * .05m) / (14.6 * 10 ^ -6)m^2/s
= 19041
Hence Cd ~ 1.1
Force from wind = 1.1 * (.5 * 1.2 * (.3 * .05) * 5.56 ^ 2) = .306 N

F = m * a
a = F / m = .306 / 5 = .06m/s^2, or with a 4000 metre range, it would have a 'to hit' circle of 14cm diameter. That's quite ok.

Your proposed Magella round:
Same principle, substitute the 1/10 recoil round in place of 5kg
a = F / m = .306 / .0648 = 4.72m/s^2 or with the observed 10000 metre range, it would have a to hit circle of 9.4m in diameter! That's insane! The Zaku pilot wouldn't have fired at the Gundam in 'that' scene, he'd have put his hands up and go "I surrender" since he would have had NO chance! Furthermore, we have never seen this kind of scattering before in any of the weaponery as demonstrated in MSG.

Recoil and toppling:

Here is where everybody says there's a problem, and the toughest nut to crack, so I looked at it last. Unfortunately, as I'm rather short on time as I am in the middle of university end exams over here in Australia, I can't do justice to this section. However, some preliminary stuff would probably be interesting.

In a free standing rigid object, there is a physical property called Centre of Percussion. If you apply a force not at this point/level/height, the object will tend to topple, but if you apply the force at this point/level/height the object will not topple but will be shoved backwards. The problem with calculating this is that I do not know the weight distribution of the Zaku, so I cannot model the Zaku as multiple cylinders, find their Moments of Inertia, combine them using the Transfer of Axis theorm, and then calculate the Centre of Percussion, all in 3D!

However, it boils down to this, you can argue this one either way. Since the weight distribution is unknown, it is possible that the Zaku has been balanced so that the force left over from firing goes through this point/level and thus the Zaku would be shoved back and not toppled, or it could be extremely low weight projectiles because all the weight's bunched right up, but that has been shown to be highly unlikely from visuals in the series and from my previous calculations.

And as for shoving backwards, well, assuming no toppling (which Centre of Percussion DOES allow for, and Zakus and tanks can be treated as a rigid object, I'm sure it can lock its servos/treads!), the tank and the Zaku would give equivalent resistance to the recoil as frictional forces work by the formula F= (Coefficient of Friction) * (Normal force)
Normal force is about the same for both, and as for coefficient of friction, well, steel treads on ground = steel treads on ground at the very least, and surface contact area surprisingly for non-engineers doesn't come into it at all.

Conclusions

To sum it all up in simple words:

1- Magella cannon fires with average velocity of 5km/s
2- It does not need to elevate to ridiculous levels, simple analysis indicates less than a degree's worth of elevation
3- Tanks would get sink in soft ground faster than MSs would
4- MSs are FAR faster than tanks, to the tune of at least 21km/h, or nearly a third faster!
5- A DU projectile can perform the same at 5km/s as 1.8km/s, simply by paring down the weight. No shattering, ma!
6- If the Magella's projectile really is HE and it really does have a low recoil, damn, that's some HE! 65g of it can SHAKE THE GROUND, feck! As the old saying goes, that just ain't right.
7- Also, if the Magella's round was so light, it would be useless at range from random drifting and WE DO NOT SEE THAT IN THE SERIES ANYWHERE.
8- There is a physical explaination for how a Zaku can take the same recoil a M1A1 experiences when it is standing up, thus reinforcing the idea that the Magella IS powerful.

In light of all these factors, I think I can safely say that since a Gundam was able to take a point blank Magella shot to the chest without a problem, and the Magella can be just as powerful as a contemporary tank cannon, Mobile Suits in general can be effective against T90s.

If you want to refute any of this, go right ahead. But please, no mumble jumbo, bring on the physics, bring on the maths, and BACK YOUR STATEMENTS UP WITH CALCULATIONS! If I'm wrong, then well, arrgg, all this work!! If I'm right, then maybe it's time to stop bashing mecha in general so badly?

This is the last I'll say on this topic period on stardestroyer.net, this lump will stand or fall on it's own now.

Lord Wong, if you do read this, could I ask of you a favour, that is if you do find something wrong, even if it's drastically wrong and will change the findings significantly, could you PM it to me if Sea Skimmer, MKSheppard, Vympel etc have not replied yet? Since I was accused of not knowing my physics, I would like to let this be a demonstration of who really knows his/her physics/mechanics better, not how well can we shoot our mouths off and rely on Lord Wong to back us up.

[MKSheppard]

You again?

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

LOL

Nasty, Shep, nasty.

[Darth_Shinji]

While I'm not good at phyics Dendrobius, and will be no help checking this for flaws... I must congratulate you on your effort. It seems to be well-though out.


And Shep.... is it possible to you to reply to oppisite veiw ponts with anything other than "shut the fuck up"? It would make sense if you told him and told him his calcs were wrong with phyics backing you up.... but you still flame him even after he tries to prove himself with an apperantly well though out response. Fully opening himself to opposing critizim on his calcs.

[data_link]

Shep, I suggest that you do us all a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[MKSheppard]

And Shep.... is it possible to you to reply to oppisite veiw ponts with anything other than "shut the fuck up"?

We slapped him into the ground a long time ago. We're just dealing with his
crybaby rantings now. Quite frankly I've wasted enough time on this fucktard
mecha fanwhore wanker. He can go back to fondling his Gundam model,
complete with cum stains on it....

[data_link]

W007! Post 666.

Mew.

Yes, I am evil.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

W007! Post 666.

Mew.

Yes, I am evil.

Wait till you get to 1337.

[MKSheppard]

Wait till you get to 1337.

Or 7734.....

[MKSheppard]

Shep, I suggest that you do us all a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Then he should have come up with these calcs YESTERDAY instead
of studying for his exams. The Mecha vs Tank thread is OVER, and
their side lost so goddamn hard it isn't funny.

[Darth_Shinji]

And Shep.... is it possible to you to reply to oppisite veiw ponts with anything other than "shut the fuck up"?

We slapped him into the ground a long time ago. We're just dealing with his
crybaby rantings now. Quite frankly I've wasted enough time on this fucktard
mecha fanwhore wanker. He can go back to fondling his Gundam model,
complete with cum stains on it....

Again, alot of cussing with no hard prove. You haven't replused any of his claims as far as I've can see. Off course I tend to ingnore big red fuck you's. Expesaly since he has taken the time to apperently research your claims and come up with contradicting info.

[data_link]

Shep, I suggest that you do us all a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Then he should have come up with these calcs YESTERDAY instead
of studying for his exams. The Mecha vs Tank thread is OVER, and
their side lost so goddamn hard it isn't funny.

And you have a problem with re-opening debate in light of new evidence? Or are you just afraid that with actual data being used against you that you'll lose so goddamn hard it won't even be funny?

[Darth_Shinji]

Shep, I suggest that you do us all a favor and SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Then he should have come up with these calcs YESTERDAY instead
of studying for his exams. The Mecha vs Tank thread is OVER, and
their side lost so goddamn hard it isn't funny.

Your right.. the mech side wasn't funny.... your sides points and rebuttals on the other hand.... they were hilarious. Your points were rebuttaled so bad you don't even relised they were rebuttaled.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

I sense much flames and death coming...

(hides in bunker with a chick, a b33r and a bag of chips)

[MKSheppard]

I sense much flames and death coming...

(hides in bunker with a chick, a b33r and a bag of chips)

Posting info for your side after a debate is over, is like dispatching 4 squadrons of Me-109's to Dresden the day after the raid.

[weemadando]

I sense much flames and death coming...

(hides in bunker with a chick, a b33r and a bag of chips)

Posting info for your side after a debate is over, is like dispatching 4 squadrons of Me-109's to Dresden the day after the raid.

Dude, then critique the calcs. Not the person.

I can see that you are angry and pissed off about him posting this late, but I can understand, exams ALWAYS take precedence.

Also, like I said, if you have a problem with the calcs, debunk them, don't pull out the ad hominems.

[MKSheppard]

Your right.. the mech side wasn't funny.... your sides points and rebuttals on the other hand.... they were hilarious. Your points were rebuttaled so bad you don't even relised they were rebuttaled.

Yeah, like a 70 ton mecha two stories high (17.5 metres) has better
armor than a 50 ton tank that is only 1.8 metres high.

[data_link]

I sense much flames and death coming...

(hides in bunker with a chick, a b33r and a bag of chips)

Posting info for your side after a debate is over, is like dispatching 4 squadrons of Me-109's to Dresden the day after the raid.

No, it's like appealing the verdict of a trial when new evidence comes to light. Now, if you want to concede the argument, I'd be happy to let you, but if all you came here to do is post Ad hominems, then STFU.

[MKSheppard]

Also, like I said, if you have a problem with the calcs, debunk them, don't pull out the ad hominems.

I've done so much debunking of their useless crap over the last couple of days
at this point I don't care, and go right to the flamethrower. It's more fun than
repetitively typing out the same shit you typed out 2 days ago.

[MKSheppard]

I've done so much debunking of their useless crap over the last couple of days
at this point I don't care, and go right to the flamethrower. It's more fun than
repetitively typing out the same shit you typed out 2 days ago.

Blame the CS Strowbridge clone, or whoever the fuck that was last night
for my now exceedingly low tolerance to bullshit.

[Darth_Shinji]

Your right.. the mech side wasn't funny.... your sides points and rebuttals on the other hand.... they were hilarious. Your points were rebuttaled so bad you don't even relised they were rebuttaled.

Yeah, like a 70 ton mecha two stories high (17.5 metres) has better
armor than a 50 ton tank that is only 1.8 metres high.

Yeah you right.... lets quitly forget the fact that the mech is made with advanced technology we haven't elclisped to this day.

[MKSheppard]

Yeah you right.... lets quitly forget the fact that the mech is made with advanced technology we haven't elclisped to this day.

Then why do low velocity 120mm rounds blow the shit out of it? They've
never answered those questions....

[Howedar]

Euuuuh, fine, I'll do the rebuttal.

[MKSheppard]

Euuuuh, fine, I'll do the rebuttal.

Ok by me, when I'm out of this snit i'm currently in, I'll flame the
moron to a crisp and tear his calcs apart like the snot filled tissue
paper they are.....

But at the moment I'm burned out of debating fools like him....

[Darth_Shinji]

Also, like I said, if you have a problem with the calcs, debunk them, don't pull out the ad hominems.

I've done so much debunking of their useless crap over the last couple of days
at this point I don't care, and go right to the flamethrower. It's more fun than
repetitively typing out the same shit you typed out 2 days ago.

I see... so you would just act like a broken record, mindlessly repeating the same augements.... never aknowledging the fact that his new points refute yours, based on onscreen evidence and phyics?

Know to be honest I see your points on mecha. RL mecha are always considered a bad-idea in SB. However you are debating mecha that have shown capabilities that extend beyound your points. On-screen evidence needs to be ratonlized, not ingnored, all you are doing is basiacally saying "they can't and shouldn't be able to do that" when we know they can.