TPM Swordsmanship versus AoTC and RoTS

DrkHelmet · Post by **DrkHelmet** » 2005-08-31 03:36pm

I just got done watching TPM today, and I was considering the effect of having actual choreographed swordsmanship instead of "Kermit on Crack" digital flips and so forth (yes, I'm looking at Yoda and Sidious mostly).

I prefer the actual swordsmanship personally. It seems more impressive to me. Does anyone else have an opinion?

Discuss.

Dangermouse · Post by **Dangermouse** » 2005-08-31 03:48pm

DrkHelmet wrote:I just got done watching TPM today, and I was considering the effect of having actual choreographed swordsmanship instead of "Kermit on Crack" digital flips and so forth (yes, I'm looking at Yoda and Sidious mostly).

I prefer the actual swordsmanship personally. It seems more impressive to me. Does anyone else have an opinion?

Discuss.

I prefer the actual swordsmanship as well. I haven't seen TPM in a long time but thought the scenes from ESB and ROTJ were well choreographed and dramatic. The last fight in ROTS between Obi-Wan and Anakin had some elements of this as well.

I feel it makes it easier to suspend disbelief. While the special effects from the PT are amazing, there is also a part of me that sees the CG and thinks: hmmm, most people are not that acrobatic; is this really happening? For me that is a negative as it makes the movie less immersive.

With actual swordsmanship, only the lightsaber itself largely requires suspension of disbelief. Its easier (for me) to imagine that this can happen a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2005-08-31 04:09pm

I prefer the actual swordsmanship, particularly since it's fairly good throughout Star Wars. Except for Young Kenobi's love of twirling the saber and the tendency to hold parries for dramatic dialogue, most of the techniques are actually somewhat recognizable, which is better than I can say for a lot of movie swordfights. I know I've discussed this before, but it's even possible to pick out what kind of sword certain fighters appear to have drawn their style from. CGI just isn't as impressive to me because it's a case of "ooh, look what they can do with computers

".

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-08-31 04:25pm

I really don't have a preference. While actual swordsmanship has its own, recognizable appeal, the effects and feats achievible due to CGI make up for some of the personality that may be lost by its use (I thought that the ROTS Obi-Wan/Vader duel was a near perfect blending of this.) I've never had a problem with SOD in either case, so that's not really an issue. And as for the constant complaints about Yoda's fighting style, how exactly would you propose to have him fight if not in the given way? He is a third of the size of any opponent he actually has to face, are they supposed to kneel while fighting or something?

(whether he should have fought with a lightsaber is another question altogether.)

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2005-08-31 04:55pm

I think the fast paced CGI duels have lost some of the dramatic edge that they could have had. I mean, sure, it isnt nearly as explosive as the RotS or AotC, but I'd still take the Vader vs. Luke duel from Empire Strikes Back over all of them for sheer atmosphere and drama

Perseid · Post by **Perseid** » 2005-08-31 05:24pm

It's got to be real swordsmanship just for the look and feel, the fight at the end of RotS was a perfect example of swordsmanship, it was fast dramatic and the CGI only came into play for the background and the effects of the lightsabres, and that fight didn't have the look of a heavily choreographed sequence, but to get to that level Ewan and Haden had to practice for days.

The worst duel i've seen in SW has got to be Obi Wan vs Maul after Qui Gon gets handed his ass. The fact that Obi Wan takes a swipe at Maul, then a large pause and then Maul TK's him is just rediculus, and the fight just doesn't have the right feel to it, you can see that Ewan has never done anything like that in his life before and clearly hadn't put enough effort into the training, (don't believe me look at the way he fights and compare it to Ray Park who's constantly pushing doing fast moves and making a genuine effort to make the fight look real) just compare Ewan in TPM to AotC and RotS, more practice and more effort and enthusiasum in training and in the actual scene makes him a better swordsman.

Just my little rant about swordsmanship in SW, couldn't be arsed to put it in the venting thread and it seemed somehow relevent here.

DrkHelmet · Post by **DrkHelmet** » 2005-09-01 12:22am

Noble Ire wrote:And as for the constant complaints about Yoda's fighting style, how exactly would you propose to have him fight if not in the given way? He is a third of the size of any opponent he actually has to face, are they supposed to kneel while fighting or something? (whether he should have fought with a lightsaber is another question altogether.)

You have a point. Yoda is far too short to fight any other way. I also feel that he should bitchslap people with the pure force and put the damn lightsaber away, but that would derail this subject entirely.

My real complaint is that, during the Windu/Sidious fight, Sidious does a couple big CG flips that are, to put it mildly, out of place. There's also other events, but without seeing it again, I can't think of what other scenes at the moment. I know there were other crappy CG effects that made absolutely no logical sense.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-09-01 04:06pm

The TPM duel was intersting because it was so technically intense and choreographed, and I have no problem with Jedi doing that, since we know its well within their power, but I prefered the feel of the later duels, especially the emotionally-charged ones, namely RotS, and, far more specifically, RotJ, which despite being so much shorter and simpler, is still my favorite duel from all the movies.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-09-02 04:24am

Well, I'm with Goomba on the fav pic. But the reason it is so cool is because of the dramatic energy it has. It's the peak of the OT and you know exactly what Vader is about to say, and if you are worth your salt as a fan, you get goose bumbs every time.

Looking at it from a simple swordfight view though, it's kinda bland. Luke sucks and Vader is toying with him. It could have been dressed up if the tech was avalible at the time and I don't think it would have lost any of it's emotional impact.

Maul vs Obi Wan is great because it has the same feel as the Luke/Vader duel but the sword play is awesome. But at the same time, no CG

Along with what Noble said... How else is Yoda supposed to fight with a lightsaber? The CG was totally needed for his style.

I guess what I'm sayin' is that I like em both.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-09-02 06:36am

re: Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul -- my advice is to watch the feet. Dramatics aside, I think Ray Park alone made that (plus the adjoining double-team against him) duel the best in all six movies, fight-wise. Just watch the feet and see the difference.

My favorite quote about this duel: "He's f*cking hopping in place!" - me on Obi-Wan after Darth Maul was reduced to one lightsaber

Btw, what do you all think of Liam Neeson-as-Qui-Gon Jinn's overall fighting proficiency?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-09-02 06:58am

I like them both, TPM and ROTJ are easily the best duels, but in a way, CGI crap is FUN to watch.

In the end, aslong as I enjoy it I like them both.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-09-02 07:04am

Ace, TPM for the drama?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-09-02 07:15am

TPM for the duel, though I'm sure I said somewhere that I like TPM

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-09-02 07:24am

Darth Maul?

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-09-02 11:20am

Although TPM's lightsaber combat was my personal favorite out of the movies, after that, I prefer the CGI effects. The acrobatics aren't that unrealistic; these are people who are very strong in the Force, with exceptional control as well (in some things *cough*Anakin*cough*).

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-09-02 11:34am

Guardsman, what for? (re: TPM)

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-09-02 04:09pm

Dangermouse wrote:there is also a part of me that sees the CG and thinks: hmmm, most people are not that acrobatic; is this really happening? For me that is a negative as it makes the movie less immersive.

I never got that impression.. the superhuman acrobatics kinda serve as a reminder that these characters have capabilities exceeding that of a normal human being. Even when it comes to the basic swordsmanship, I enjoy seeing them fighting at speeds that would be very difficult for an ordinary person to keep up with, suggesting the effect of short-term Force precognition on a duel.

Regarding the criticism directed toward Ewan McGregor's performance in the TPM duel.. although the actor's lack of experience in fight choreography was not intentional, I should think it mirrored his character's lack of experience as a duelist.
The fact that his experience as an actor increased alongside his character's is a nice bonus.

I think Maul somehow stunned Obi-Wan with the Force before TK'ing him; clearly there must be another level to what was going on, or else we'd see a whole lot more TKing all the time.

Dangermouse · Post by **Dangermouse** » 2005-09-02 04:46pm

Cykeisme wrote:I never got that impression.. the superhuman acrobatics kinda serve as a reminder that these characters have capabilities exceeding that of a normal human being. Even when it comes to the basic swordsmanship, I enjoy seeing them fighting at speeds that would be very difficult for an ordinary person to keep up with, suggesting the effect of short-term Force precognition on a duel.

Sure. I think for me, it was seeing Chancellor Palpatine twist through the air in ROTS. After all, we are talking about a character who spent at least a decade setting up the downfall of the Republic and the Jedi. Prior to the fight, we see Palpatine mainly operating in the shadows, using political manipulation and deception to achieve his goals. So, the flashy CG style surprised me and went against what I expected from his character. So when Palpatine twisted through the air, a part of me went "Come on Lucas."

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-09-02 05:03pm

What if Palpatine had a 'style' where he was defensive, 'passive', simply parrying... and then boom, went for strikes out of the opponent's peripheral vision (and possibly shielded from Force precog)? It would be odd, but getting so close and then stabbing an enemy in the back, from in front...

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-09-02 09:00pm

Dangermouse wrote:So when Palpatine twisted through the air, a part of me went "Come on Lucas."

Okay I'll give you that.. admittedly Palpy's twisteroo did cause a significant spike on the wtf-o-meter, and not in a good way.

There were also a couple of weird boing-boing flips during the duel against Mace, as someone else pointed out earlier.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2005-09-02 09:41pm

Cykeisme wrote:Okay I'll give you that.. admittedly Palpy's twisteroo did cause a significant spike on the wtf-o-meter, and not in a good way.

There were also a couple of weird boing-boing flips during the duel against Mace, as someone else pointed out earlier.

I agree with Edward Yee on how Palpatine should have fought. He should have gone defensively, giving ground, until he outmaneuvered his enemy or caught them at the disadvantage, and then suddenly the fight turns around. Although his first two kills of the movie, where he just jumps on the two jedi with Windu and cuts them down without them even seeing it coming, would probably be his method of dealing with weaker enemies.

Mr CorSec wrote:just compare Ewan in TPM to AotC and RotS, more practice and more effort and enthusiasum in training and in the actual scene makes him a better swordsman.

Actually, if you listen to the commentary and watch the extras on the TPM DVD, Ewan MacGregor was very enthusiastic and focussed during the lightsaber scenes. He was apparently very excited to be Obi-Wan Kenobi in the prequels, but when he got on set he found that it was a blue-screen party with very little location shooting and uninspiring dialogue. In response, he put a lot of effort into making his character work for the film, and he took out all his frustration on the dueling scenes.

There's a funny moment in the extras when the fight coordinator shows a few lightsaber mockups (the props that the actors fight with and then get CGI'd into the lightsaber), they are all mangled and badly bent. He says, "And these are Ewan's lightsabers." Ewan MacGregor was putting so much energy into the fight scenes that he was breaking the props

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-09-03 12:55pm

There's a line that appears in the novel that sort of puts a tad bit more sense into the way Sidious fought.. along the lines of, "I've been waiting a long time for this", or something.

I think he honestly thought he could beat Mace, but was surprised by Mace' skill with a lightsaber.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-09-03 06:15pm

So somehow Palpatine got cocky and didn't do his homework on Mace Windu and Vaapad? (Considering that his erstwhile apprentice Maul allegedly used another variant of the same base form, Juyo.)

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-09-03 07:22pm

*shrugs* He's a schemer and a politician, not a warrior. Besides, he must have been giddy with anticipation, considering how close he was to enacting vengeance. And the Sith aren't well-known for suppressing their emotions.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2005-09-04 04:09am

Cykeisme wrote:There's a line that appears in the novel that sort of puts a tad bit more sense into the way Sidious fought.. along the lines of, "I've been waiting a long time for this", or something.

I think he honestly thought he could beat Mace, but was surprised by Mace' skill with a lightsaber.

I think that in the novel, Palpy admits that he's not much of a swordsman.

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TPM Swordsmanship versus AoTC and RoTS

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TPM Swordsmanship versus AoTC and RoTS

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