Fundi saying God made the creation LOOK old...

[Magnetic]

Yep, ran across one that said that very thing, that God created the world and universe to LOOK old. Here's the post:

To deny what is written, is to call who wrote or inspired it a liar. If God's word says that He created in 6 days, and the time-line of God's word only maps out to 6 thousand years. What does that tell you?

So why does the earth date older than how God's word dates it?

2pet 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

1) That by the word of God

2) the heavens were of old

What this means is that God added age to His creation just by speaking it. So it was age without time. So in other words, we have a 4.3 billion year old earth that did not take 4.3 billions years (time) to make.

Now I know that the OEC and the evolutionists will come in here and say: But is not God lying by doing this? Nope. God created time, and lives where time has no meaning. So to add age without time is just God showing His power to do so. What makes it a lie, are those who are not willing to allow God to have such power. So to deny this power, makes God a liar by their on doing, not anything God has done.

2tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

I replied with the following:

No, the evolutionists don't ask "is not God lying.....", rather they state emphatically that by doing so (God creating an earth and universe to look like it is much older than it really is) God is purposely fooling and/or tricking a goodly amount of people because of that evidence, forcing them to question a religion that states that the Earth (and, in fact, the universe) is only 6,000 years old, thus rejecting the whole premise as dogma without the observable science on their (christianities) side.

Or is this another way that God "sends people delusions that they would believe a lie", and if that is the case, then God is not very loving, nor is God TRULY willing that "none should perish".

And concerning the scripture you gave in 2 Peter 3:5, that's a pretty obscure verse to make any case that God would have done such a thing to begin with (making the creation look older than it really is).

Yes, there are still people that believe that way.

[Zero]

You could say that by following that same logic, it's entirely possible that the entire universe was created 5 minutes ago. Your memories are fake. You have had no life up until 5 minutes ago. Perhaps the other evidence doesn't even actually exist, but we have memories of hearing about such things, and if we walked outside, the world would be entirely different from the one we remember.

But there's simply no reason to believe this, so we accept that the world around us is as it appears.


*poof* the world began with the posting of this post. Everything before now is a lie.

[FedRebel]

To deny what is written, is to call who wrote or inspired it a liar.

Well, Mr. Flanders who wrote Genesis?

We can't make any assumptions either way since we don't know who wrote it and under what conditions they wrote it.

On one hand it could be Moses ghostwriting for God, on the other hand it could be a villiage idiot stoned on opium

If God's word says that He created in 6 days, and the time-line of God's word only maps out to 6 thousand years. What does that tell you?

God has alzheimer’s
God has amnesia
God has a secret

alternatively

God doesn't exist
The 'story' was passed on via word of mouth for countless generations, til someone decided to write it down

2pet 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

1) That by the word of God

Seems a wee bit cryptic to inerpret literally

2) the heavens were of old

Uh, hello?

Heaven had to have existed before the earth

What this means is that God added age to His creation just by speaking it. So it was age without time. So in other words, we have a 4.3 billion year old earth that did not take 4.3 billions years (time) to make.

Imputence, how dare you speak for your God.[/Goa'uld voice]

Isn't 'God' supposed to be kind, forgiving, and all that?

Doesn't 'God' love us?

Then why the need for the deception?, it only serves to 'give' more souls to Satan so he can torment them and build an army to challange God's might and slay the heavenly Lord

Now I know that the OEC and the evolutionists will come in here and say: But is not God lying by doing this? Nope. God created time, and lives where time has no meaning.

Then how can he affect time if he is outside it?

So to add age without time is just God showing His power to do so.

God is showing his 'might' with deception, deception which can only have negative ramifications?

The only way he can show us his 'might' is to make himself known to us, physically. That is show up at the Vatican one day in coproreal form and sit in the Pope's chair, and say "I'm running the show now bitches"

What makes it a lie, are those who are not willing to allow God to have such power.

This time thing is nothing special, I can speed up time my self

Every night I lay in this hallowed device called a bed which allows me to slip in and out of consciousness, what ends up happening is 8 hours pass by as if they were seconds.

I can also make time move faster by not watching it (looking at my watch)

So to deny this power, makes God a liar by their on doing, not anything God has done.

So God is a liar because the 'heretics' make him a liar?

[Darth Servo]

He's full of shit. "Of Old" simply means something in the distant past. There is NOTHING in the verse in 2 Peter saying God delibrately made the Earth look older than it supposedly really is.

[Drooling Iguana]

"How can I tell that the past isn't a fiction designed to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?" - The Guy Who Rules the Universe

[Lord of the Abyss]

It's not exactly an original idea. OMPHALOS: An Attempt to Untie the Geological Knot by Phillip

OMPHALOS: An Attempt to Untie the Geological Knot by Phillip Henry Gosse. Woodbridge, CT: Ox Bow Press, 1998. 376 pages, index. Paperback; $34.95. ISBN 1-881987-10.

This is a reprint of a book originally published in London in 1857, two years before Darwin's ORIGIN OF SPECIES. Long out of print, unavailable to students of origins issues, it has reappeared as a study text for historians who would like to see how one scientist struggled to reconcile what he understood of both science and the scriptures.

< snip >

Gosse's argument is simple. If you had been present in Eden twenty minutes after Adam's creation, you would have observed his navel, a scar left from a birth that never happened. In his digestive tract would have been the remains of a meal he had not eaten two hours before. His feet would have had calluses from walks he had never taken. A nearby tree, cut down, would have shown real rings of unreal years of growth. Gosse goes on and on with this arument, separating all time into historic time, what Gosse calls "diachronic" time, and un-historic time, unreal time, virtual time, what Gosse calls "prochronic" time. He argues two propositions, ones which my friends at ICR might well take into account:

(1) All organic nature moves in a circle; and

(2) Creation is a violent irruption into the circle of nature.

Gosse quotes the philosopher Chalmers, who wrote "We have no experience in the creation of worlds..." From this statement, Gosse concludes, at least for the organic world (he disclaims any arguments for the inorganic), that any act of creation must involve the creation of a being with a history that never took place. On page 336 he writes, "...we cannot avoid the conclusion that each organism was from the first marked with the records of a previous being. But since creation and previous history are inconsistent with each other; as the very idea of the creation of an organism excludes the idea of pre-existence of that organism, or any part of it; it follows, that such records are false, so far as they testify to time; that the developments and processes thus recorded have been
produced without time, or are what I call 'prochronic.'"

[Master of Ossus]

The extreme form of this hypothesis is sometimes known as "God as a Practical Joker," or variations thereof. The point is basically that God went through an incredible amount of effort just to trick us into thinking that the universe is older than it appars to be. It's not very original, actually.

[PrinceofLowLight]

Hypothetically, I suppose you could think of it like a writer creating a book that already has a history. It's still a completely ridiculous, unprovable claim, butAragorn would also think you were crazy if you told him Middle Earth was only about 60 years old.

[kaikatsu]

You could say that by following that same logic, it's entirely possible that the entire universe was created 5 minutes ago. Your memories are fake. You have had no life up until 5 minutes ago.

When I was a little kid I used to be paranoid that the Earth began with my birth, and everything was a grand illusion designed to raise me in a particular way for some grand purpose.

Being an only child did wonders for my imagination.

[CaptJodan]

You could say that by following that same logic, it's entirely possible that the entire universe was created 5 minutes ago. Your memories are fake. You have had no life up until 5 minutes ago.

When I was a little kid I used to be paranoid that the Earth began with my birth, and everything was a grand illusion designed to raise me in a particular way for some grand purpose.

Being an only child did wonders for my imagination.

You were clearly wrong. The world was actually created with MY birth, and I'm pretty sure I'm the last of my race, being carried around in some kind of advanced holodeck or VR simulation by a bunch of aliens wanting to see how our race lived and how we respond under situations of stress.

Ahh, the grandness of only child youth.

Back on topic, this argument I saw shot down with pretty much the same reasoning you used via Wong's site. I don't suppose he posted a response to you? I'm dying to hear what rational they can come up with to explain why God would be so vindictive as to trick all his inhabitants into not believeing in him on purpose if he loves us so much.

[RedImperator]

So Earth is really 6000 years old, but God made it to look 4.5 billion years old in every detail, down to the point of making the laws of physics consistent with an old universe. In that case, what's the point? You don't need to be William of Ockham to spot the extraneous term here.

[Nephtys]

So Earth is really 6000 years old, but God made it to look 4.5 billion years old in every detail, down to the point of making the laws of physics consistent with an old universe. In that case, what's the point? You don't need to be William of Ockham to spot the extraneous term here.

While we're at it, we're also in a machine so that we can feed robots, and it's really the future.

If you can't tell the difference, there is no difference. What tripe.

[Darth Servo]

While we're at it, we're also in a machine so that we can feed robots, and it's really the future.

40 lashings for bringing up "The Matrix"

[SPOOFE]

Ask these Jeezers WHEN God made the universe to look 4.5 billion years old. Did he do it at the Creation? If so, then no human account would be able to "know" that things were only 6,000 years, since man didn't exist during the Creation. Did he do it at some point AFTER the Creation? Then it's not a very good trick, is it, if mere mortal man was able to notice?

[Jawawithagun]

So Earth is really 6000 years old, but God made it to look 4.5 billion years old in every detail, down to the point of making the laws of physics consistent with an old universe. In that case, what's the point? You don't need to be William of Ockham to spot the extraneous term here.

God's a geek and Earth is just a proof-of-concept to show off to all the other gods.

[kheegster]

My response to such a statement is that the true creator made the Universe 13 billions years ago but put in a fictional God who said he created the Universe merely 6000 years from today to fool idiots like him.

Sort of like in Sophie's World .

[wolveraptor]

You're all wrong. The sensation of God butt-fucking us all is what life, history and memories really are. All else is illusion.

[Magnetic]

Ask these Jeezers WHEN God made the universe to look 4.5 billion years old. Did he do it at the Creation? If so, then no human account would be able to "know" that things were only 6,000 years, since man didn't exist during the Creation. Did he do it at some point AFTER the Creation? Then it's not a very good trick, is it, if mere mortal man was able to notice?

Ah, that's an easy one for the fundi. It all goes back to the "begats" in the bible, going from Adam to Jesus. They've "done the math" and the begats show that Adam was created aproximately 6,000 years ago, and apparently somewhere around the 'top' of the Tigris & Euphrates rivers.

[SPOOFE]

Exactly, they simply trace heredity back through Abraham, to Adam. However, what they CAN'T say is when the "aging" of the universe happened. It's never mentioned in the Bible.... they just "assume" it happened because it's necessary for the 6,000 years thing. But did it happen during the Creation, before man was made, or did it happen at some point after? And if so, why is there no record of it?

I'm sure clever fundies would insist that the "aging" was a result of Adam being thrown out of the Garden of Eden or something, or they'd use clever semantic and linguistic tricks to prove how the "flaming sword" actually referred to hyper-aging or whatever, but the less-deluded ones would (hopefully) start to question just what their little book of fairy tales is telling them.

[Darth Servo]

Exactly, they simply trace heredity back through Abraham, to Adam. However, what they CAN'T say is when the "aging" of the universe happened. It's never mentioned in the Bible.... they just "assume" it happened because it's necessary for the 6,000 years thing. But did it happen during the Creation, before man was made, or did it happen at some point after? And if so, why is there no record of it?

Well, if these are true fundies we're talking about, "a day is a day. The Bible wouldn't have said 'a day' if it didn't mean it".

I'm sure clever fundies would insist that the "aging" was a result of Adam being thrown out of the Garden of Eden or something,

I have seen them use that to try and explain away all the genetic mistakes and garbage in the otherwise "divinely designed" humans. They can't seem to explain why other primates share those same mistakes though.

[/quote]or they'd use clever semantic and linguistic tricks to prove how the "flaming sword" actually referred to hyper-aging or whatever,[/quote]Now THAT is a new one I've never seen.

[SPOOFE]

Well, if these are true fundies we're talking about, "a day is a day. The Bible wouldn't have said 'a day' if it didn't mean it".

Right... they have ready-made answers to just about any criticism to their way of thinking.

Now THAT is a new one I've never seen.

Exactly how I deal with fundies... keep 'em on their toes. Find something that HASN'T already been pre-countered and forced into their head.

I mean, I fully realize that dealing with fundies is typically a waste of time, but still... every now and then I like to throw 'em a zinger.

[Lord Revan]

Statements like this should easy to disprove, just tell them to prove it without resorting to the Bible (of course this works only in a perfect world).

[drachefly]

Ask these Jeezers WHEN God made the universe to look 4.5 billion years old. Did he do it at the Creation? If so, then no human account would be able to "know" that things were only 6,000 years, since man didn't exist during the Creation. Did he do it at some point AFTER the Creation? Then it's not a very good trick, is it, if mere mortal man was able to notice?

Problem: The claim is not that record-keeping was maintained all the way from Adam through Noah to Moses and onward; but that God recounted all of the earlier events to Moses, at which point they were recorded and maintained from that point onward.

[Darth Servo]

Problem: The claim is not that record-keeping was maintained all the way from Adam through Noah to Moses and onward; but that God recounted all of the earlier events to Moses, at which point they were recorded and maintained from that point onward.

Of course the end of Deuteronomy clearly refutes the idea that Moses wrote down the entire five books since it talks about his own death.

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and amourning for Moses were ended.

And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,

12 And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

There is no way Moses personally wrote any of that, even if you are a full-blown fundi YEC.

[wolveraptor]

"nor his natural force abated"? Looks like Moses is one guy who wouldn't suffer from Viagra blindness.