"True" Christianity and the bible, good or evil?

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"True" Christianity and the bible, good or evil?

Post by His Divine Shadow »

It is my belief that the bible contains the true christianity and that fundamentalists are true christians and everyone else are following what I like to think of as christianity-lite, a religion that has been mixed with copius amounts of secularism and modern morals.

However many people still say true christianity is love, passion and tolerance and often evoke massive explanations to hatefull passages, reffering to historical perspectives and errors in the translation and whatnot, thus I present this in response.

An interpreptation of the romans using several versions of the bible, starting with 1:27.
King James Version
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Here the bible speaks clearly about women as if they where mere objects to be used and says that lust is a sin and hints that men engaging in sexual acts with each other is a sin as well, that is a highly bigoted stance.
New International version
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
The newer version is kinder to women and doesn't say they are objects to be used anymore but it still retains the lust is bad and is actually more clear than the KJV bible on that sexual acts between men is wrong and that it entails due penalties, here is the NIV version continued:
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
So here we see, giving into lust and performing homosexual acts is a perversion and it will make you evil, greedy, depraved, envious, wicked, deceitful, a murderer. Every bad thing there is they say the homosexuals are and that they deserve death. here is the KJV version for contrast:
28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
It says pretty much the same thing except that you shall take pleasure in killing homosexuals.

Now biblical apologists, what labyrinthical logic can be applied to this spew of hatred and bigotry so that it may be turned into the message of love and tolerance that people think the bible contains?

Is it wrong of me to think of true christians are people like Pat Robertson and hate spewing southern preachers as opposed to the moderate masses? Is it wrong to say the bible is an extremely evil book as opposed to just being translated badly or misunderstood. That also raises th question if the bible is so badly translated that it's message is 180 degress from truth, then why bother with it?
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Sorry, I misread that last KJV part, oh well thanks for disabling the edit, real good idea that was.
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by Jawawithagun »

His Divine Shadow wrote:An interpreptation of the romans using several versions of the bible, starting with 1:27.
King James Version
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Here the bible speaks clearly about women as if they where mere objects to be used and says that lust is a sin and hints that men engaging in sexual acts with each other is a sin as well, that is a highly bigoted stance.
So? To me Romans reads as the very personal opinion of Paul and nothing more. It shouldn't even be in the bible.
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by CaptJodan »

His Divine Shadow wrote: Long list of things to say .
I think that's a fairly decent point to be made. In todays world, the more moderate Christian HAS to pevert the letter of the law in order to find a spirit of the law they can live with. The Bible is so obviously riddled with passage after passage of things such as those listed (interesting how the NT was supposed to solve everything. Apparently taking pleasure in the murder of homosexuals who have a list of all things evil attached to them is something to strive for).

If the core of Christianity is founded, based, and relied upon soley by the Bible and it's tenants, then I'd say that those who are fundies are probably the "true Christians." They are the christians who have followed to the best of their ability (naturally they can't kill people indescriminately without going to jail, but they use other means to harm others they don't like, including coming up with laws that make x and y illegal) the laws sent down by God, and follow his war-like mentality.

Of course, that doesn't make them in any way better or superior to more moderate Christians. I think at the core of Christianity is a religion based on hate and fear, rather than love. There are certainly passages in the Bible that speak to love, but those that try to be more moderate have no choice but to try and skip over the parts that deal with large scale death and destruction, or deal with laws such as "go kill the homosexuals" because it IS offensive to their sense of morality. In this sense, it seems that christianty is at it's core an evil religion. But those who can look past those parts can find good messages in the Bible. Problem is you have to have a certain level of intelligence and free will to do so.

It's probably why there's a big problem with changing most of what is in the Bible at this point. To change it to a more moderate, modern view would be an admission that they were flat wrong about the old view (and thus how can you be right, religiously, in the new view with nothing to go on?). Catch 22. Although hasn't the Bible been changed around and redone a couple times anyway? Oh well.
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Post by Akaramu Shinja »

Isn't it only the Protestant portion of Christianity that takes the Bible as literal truth and doesn't look beyond that?
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Post by Rahvin »

Isn't it only the Protestant portion of Christianity that takes the Bible as literal truth and doesn't look beyond that?
Well, Protestantism covers quite a few denominations, not all of which are literalist.

I as raised in a couple different (not much) denominations of Prtenstantis, and not many people I knew took the book completely literally.

As for "true Christianity" being the "fucktard fundy" flavor, the case could be made, but I disagree.

When the Bible is read and the context of the people who wrote it is taken into account, the picture changes significantly. There was no Exodus as described in the Bible, but archeological evidence shows that there were Egyptian mines within the vicinity of Israel itself where there were Hebrew slaves. It's likely the Exodus story had its basis in the truth. Other examples in the Bible can have similar interpretations when read in an archeological context - like the Flood being a retelling of the Epic of Gilgamesh, with embellishments borne of an ancient "my God is better than yours" mindset.

The more homphobic and bigotted portions seem to be more the opinions of the authors themselves, rather than a real divine condemnation of homosexuality. As Jawawithagun pointed out, the Pauline documents seem to contain more of Paul's opinions rather than the message of Jesus. Any bigotted nimrod can claim that "God hates fags" or "Indians are red becuase they were cursed by God." That doesn't make it true.

I would contend that the true message of Christianity is exactly what Jesus taught - love your neighbor as you love yourself. The passages that violate this sentiment are the result of ancient misinterpretations, pre-existing bigotry, and outright lies attributing horrors to God.
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Post by John of the Dead »

Quite simply, who said it? Christ, or Paul? If you place more emphasis on Paul's writings than Jesus', you're not a Christian, you're a Paulian. Jesus stands mute on the issue of homosexuality; from that, I conclude that he didn't care and it's not an issue to concern oneself over.

Jesus had much to say about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and sheltering the homeless. "Love your neighbor" is the essential point of everything he said. I try to base my Christianity on Christ, with everyone else (Moses, David, Solomon, Paul, James, etc) offering either historical/literary background or opinion/commentary.
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Post by The Guid »

Tricky one. Depends what you define Christianity as. Does a Christian need to follow the Bible? A Christian phonetically I believe is a "follower of Christ" which makes the Bible a reference book - one with flaws. I really don't know if you can decide, objectively, who is a "true" Christian because there are so many different possible definitions of the word.
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by Plekhanov »

Jawawithagun wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:An interpreptation of the romans using several versions of the bible, starting with 1:27.
King James Version
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Here the bible speaks clearly about women as if they where mere objects to be used and says that lust is a sin and hints that men engaging in sexual acts with each other is a sin as well, that is a highly bigoted stance.
So? To me Romans reads as the very personal opinion of Paul and nothing more. It shouldn't even be in the bible.
And the the belief that Romans "shouldn't be even be in the bible" "reads as the very personal opinion of" a certain Jawawithagun and who the fuck are you to decide what should and shouldn't be in the bible? Are you some kind of prophet or something?
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by Jawawithagun »

Plekhanov wrote: And the the belief that Romans "shouldn't be even be in the bible" "reads as the very personal opinion of" a certain Jawawithagun and who the fuck are you to decide what should and shouldn't be in the bible? Are you some kind of prophet or something?
Is that a proposal?
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by Plekhanov »

Jawawithagun wrote:
Plekhanov wrote: And the the belief that Romans "shouldn't be even be in the bible" "reads as the very personal opinion of" a certain Jawawithagun and who the fuck are you to decide what should and shouldn't be in the bible? Are you some kind of prophet or something?
Is that a proposal?
No it was a straight (well maybe not straight I was being perhaps a touch sarcastic) question and one I'll repeat & expand upon it somewhat.

Who are you to decide what should and shouldn't be included in the bible?

If you or anybody else can go around re-editing the bible to suit your self what authority does it have as a Holy Book?

Further more as you denigrate the bible in such a way, if not the bible what do you consider to be the basis for the Christian religion?
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Post by Rye »

John of the Dead wrote:Quite simply, who said it? Christ, or Paul? If you place more emphasis on Paul's writings than Jesus', you're not a Christian, you're a Paulian. Jesus stands mute on the issue of homosexuality; from that, I conclude that he didn't care and it's not an issue to concern oneself over.
Well, modern sexuality is not something anyone from back then would've dealt with, but since Jesus says stuff like "not one letter of the law is to change till heaven and earth pass away" and "keep the commandments" and shit, it's unlikely that anything but the commands regarding breeding would open up to include same se couples. Women were traditionally subservient to men, men weren't to engage in guy-on-guy fertility acts, they were supposed to just pork their many wives. Jesus didn't really say anything that seems to disagree with that, and given he was a jew, it's logical to conclude that's what he would most likely have said on the subject.
Jesus had much to say about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and sheltering the homeless. "Love your neighbor" is the essential point of everything he said. I try to base my Christianity on Christ, with everyone else (Moses, David, Solomon, Paul, James, etc) offering either historical/literary background or opinion/commentary.
Don't forget about how everyone that rejects him is an evildoer, and will be burned for eternity, unbelieving cities will be destroyed worse than sodom, people killed if they don't believe, jews are more important, gentiles are dogs, slavery is condoned, etc. One has to eisegate a LOT of hippiness into Jesus' character and sort of gloss over all those parts if they're going to claim he was about love and tolerance.
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by The Guid »

Plekhanov wrote:
Jawawithagun wrote:
Plekhanov wrote: And the the belief that Romans "shouldn't be even be in the bible" "reads as the very personal opinion of" a certain Jawawithagun and who the fuck are you to decide what should and shouldn't be in the bible? Are you some kind of prophet or something?
Is that a proposal?
No it was a straight (well maybe not straight I was being perhaps a touch sarcastic) question and one I'll repeat & expand upon it somewhat.

Who are you to decide what should and shouldn't be included in the bible?

If you or anybody else can go around re-editing the bible to suit your self what authority does it have as a Holy Book?

Further more as you denigrate the bible in such a way, if not the bible what do you consider to be the basis for the Christian religion?
The Bible was already edited in Rome thousands of years ago. A version they chose to be the official one become the official one. There are about 16 unread Gospels, stacks of ancient law etc. that they didn't like and decided not to put in. What authority did they have?
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by CaptJodan »

The Bible was already edited in Rome thousands of years ago. A version they chose to be the official one become the official one. There are about 16 unread Gospels, stacks of ancient law etc. that they didn't like and decided not to put in. What authority did they have?
A good question, one in which maybe you could answer. I guess that's basically the point. What makes the Bible the end-all-be-all of Christianity even NOW when it's already been changed? It's already been modified to suit those of the times when it was modified. Who's to say that this Bible has any more validity than one any liberal christian would make up to try and put our own present day belief systems in?

The fact that it has already been changed makes the Bible highly suspect even in it's present incarnation. Putting it through the washer again may not help, but it may not hurt it anymore than it already is.
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by Jawawithagun »

Plekhanov wrote: No it was a straight (well maybe not straight I was being perhaps a touch sarcastic) question and one I'll repeat & expand upon it somewhat.

Who are you to decide what should and shouldn't be included in the bible?
Im an opinionated arsehole. After all, that was all the qualification anyone ever needed to edit that book.
Plekhanov wrote:If you or anybody else can go around re-editing the bible to suit your self what authority does it have as a Holy Book?
Um... the same it has now?
Plekhanov wrote:Further more as you denigrate the bible in such a way, if not the bible what do you consider to be the basis for the Christian religion?
A big pretty lie to ease the pains of life.
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by EmperorSolo51 »

The Guid wrote:
The Bible was already edited in Rome thousands of years ago. A version they chose to be the official one become the official one. There are about 16 unread Gospels, stacks of ancient law etc. that they didn't like and decided not to put in. What authority did they have?
The reason put forth is becuase the gospels that we know today were ones that most of the Churches and Dioces had been using for a century before the council of Nicea. They had been part of the Church Tradition in the Century leading upo the the ascension of Constantine as Emperor. By the time the council of Nicea came around, there was no question that Matthew Mark, luke and John were going to be put into the Codex for the Emperor Constantine. The only two books of the bible that were questioned by that time were the Letters to the Hebrews and the Revalation of John only on the question of authorship.

As for the Legitmacy of the Council of Nicea, we shouldn't forget that this was one of largest congregation of early Christian leaders. These men came from all around the Christian world, representing thier respective synod and Diocese. Some came as far away as Britain and Spain in order to attend this imperial conference. Many of the early churchleaders attended this conference, some of whom had thier own Ideas on what should be the doctorine of the faith. One Person in Particular, Aruis supported the Idea that Jesus was a devine creation of God but not god himself. He believed that there should not be a veneration of Jesus but only a veneration of God himself and taking the works of Jesus as a message from God.

Others who attended at this council represented the the Militean Schismatics. These schismatics were attacked becuase of the fact that they refused to allow Christians who converted to paganism to escape the persecutions back into thier dioces and churches. After all that was said and done, both the Militeans and the Arianists agreed with the early church fathers that the 4 gospels in the New Testament should be part of the highest Church Canon.


As for those "gospel" Some of them like the Shphard of Hermus and the Jubileess and the infancy Gospel of St. Thomas made thier way into the Church Canon below the Bible. (Most of the coptic traditions do venerate these books and include them in thier codices) Others like the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary fell out of favor with the Church due to thier Gnostic background.
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by SirNitram »

EmperorSolo51 wrote:Others like the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary fell out of favor with the Church due to thier Gnostic background.
I'm sorry, but isn't 'Gnostic' just a fancy word for mysticism? Isn't it patentedly, ridiculously absurd to use this as an argument to throw out books, when the ones you keep have ressurection, possessions, transmutation, faith healing, and prophecies flowing out of them?
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by EmperorSolo51 »

SirNitram wrote:
EmperorSolo51 wrote:Others like the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary fell out of favor with the Church due to thier Gnostic background.
I'm sorry, but isn't 'Gnostic' just a fancy word for mysticism? Isn't it patentedly, ridiculously absurd to use this as an argument to throw out books, when the ones you keep have ressurection, possessions, transmutation, faith healing, and prophecies flowing out of them?
The reason they are called Gnostics is becuase they sought enlightenment not salvation through Knwoledge or Gnosis through mystic rituals. The reason why they are excluded is becuase thier writing conflicted with more mainstream Christianity on two very key issues. One is rejection of salvation on faith or good works in exchange for enlightenment. The other is the rejection of both Judaic and Christian belief that there is one god who "created" the world and the Christian assertion in the divinity of Jesus. Gnostics believed that the world all material wealth was created by an evil god and the true god will bring enlightenment to the masses through the sharing of divine knowledge.

That's why most scholars even today reject the notion that the Gnostics and thier teachings can be compared with other Christian writings.
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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by The Guid »

CaptJodan wrote:
The Bible was already edited in Rome thousands of years ago. A version they chose to be the official one become the official one. There are about 16 unread Gospels, stacks of ancient law etc. that they didn't like and decided not to put in. What authority did they have?
A good question, one in which maybe you could answer. I guess that's basically the point. What makes the Bible the end-all-be-all of Christianity even NOW when it's already been changed? It's already been modified to suit those of the times when it was modified. Who's to say that this Bible has any more validity than one any liberal christian would make up to try and put our own present day belief systems in?

The fact that it has already been changed makes the Bible highly suspect even in it's present incarnation. Putting it through the washer again may not help, but it may not hurt it anymore than it already is.
The Bible is nothing more than an encyclopedia of Christianity. Actually, more of a wikipedia, with people adding what they like and it going on hearsay.

The Gospels are an attempt at a historical record however & as such surely should include all references.

The Old Testament combines old legends with old law books.

Why is it so important? Its all Christians have to base their belief on besides the Holy Spirit. And some people find the whole leap of faith thing ironically difficult.
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Post by kaikatsu »

As a former fundie myself (raised from a very early age) I have come to realize a few things about the Bible...

First, to address the minor issue -- Paul's writings need some context. Homosexuality was NOT popular back then, it had social values against it from Orthodox Judaism which were already deeply in place. Now take verse 28 closely.

"28, Furthermore, SINCE they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done."

This is a pretty common theme with all Paul's writings. Failure to immerse yourself in the mind of God will make you a wicked, slanderous, nasty person. AND it will make you Gay too!

For humour, and to completely stretch my point WELL past the breaking zone, just imagine Paul saying "They don't follow Christ? Dude, that's so gay."

Anyway, paul writes in the modern context of homosexuality being bad, and bad things are a symptom of lack of God in your life.

Other than that, we have the old levitical laws about homosexuality, which I won't get into.

If I may be permitted to rant a bit on this topic, as I feel somewhat passionately about it, the BIGGEST Fundamentalist Christian mistake comes from a line in Timothy where Paul, writing to Timothy says (and I'm working from memory, I can source on request) "all scripture is good for teaching and valid."

Now, at the time of Paul's writing this letter, even the Gosples would have been too new to be scripcture. What is more likely is that Paul was a.) so sure of the universal truth of Jesus and b.) so big on metaphores that he wanted Timothy to know you could find Jesus everywhere. Any holy book, any scripture, ANYTHING could be used to show Jesus. Even the Greek Logos, the unknown God, was a perfect chance for him to say "I know what this God his and his name is Jesus."

SOMEHOW we ended up justifying Paul's writings by this. Yes, Paul's writings are scripture because Paul told Timothy all writings are valid scripture. Now I'm sure even a 12 year old can see the logical problem here, but I've actually had people try to use this verse to justify Paul's writings to me.

Anyone who reads the book, really honestly reads it, will see a very different picture that what is being preached. God is NOT perfect, he either CANNOT see the future or limits his vision of it, he plays by one set of rules for himself, and another set for us (but he's God, so it's all ok, really) and even he looked at humans and said "this was a bad idea, but I did promise I'd help them fix it up."

He's also liable to tell people to sit down and shut up because their suffering is insigificant compared to the entire universe. (And in the context of an immortal afterlife, this isn't entirely illogical.)

I could continue ranting, but the fact is, the contradictions in the Bible almost always arise due to a complete failure to understand who wrote it and why. Jesus? Historical portrayal of the Son of God -- with heavy spin depending on who editorialized. Issiah? Jerimiah? Supposedly accurate writings from the Pen of God. Psalms? Writings from a manic-depressive man who couldn't decide if God loved him or hated him. But watch how often Psalms gets quoted in Christian literature as absolute truth. It's FUCKING WORSHIP MUSIC!

Fundies will go so far to make their Bible pure and prestine they'll say Song of Solomon is a picture of Jesus and the Church. It's that Paul brainbug showing up again, and again, and again. Hebrew Written Porn is not scripture. There was an argument about putting it in the Bible for a reason. It SHOULD be there to show us just how sensual they could be in that time... it's INTERESTING.

Sorry if this rant was too long, or preachy. I'm too unsure about my own faith to even try to convert people, or turn them away. I will however point out logical flaws when I see it, and the fundie notion of "all of the Bible is God-ordained truth" is a flaw, not even supported by the Bible itself, even if you assume that every book was accurately recorded, unedited, and unbiased.

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Re: "True" Christianity and the bible, good or evi

Post by NecronLord »

Plekhanov wrote: Who are you to decide what should and shouldn't be included in the bible?
Presumably he's not a Early-Christian Bishop, though if he were, then he would have the 'authority' to edit the accepted book. Who do you think made the division between canon and apocrytha in the first place?

EDIT: I note that this has been raised already, but it's still a valid point.
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Post by NecronLord »

kaikatsu wrote:First, to address the minor issue -- Paul's writings need some context. Homosexuality was NOT popular back then, it had social values against it from Orthodox Judaism which were already deeply in place. Now take verse 28 closely.
Where? It was plenty popular in Rome. The only shame in homosexuality for a roman was if they happened to be the one whose ass got penetrated. You mean it's not popular in Judaism, which is of course, back to a problem with Judeo-Christian religion.
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Post by SirNitram »

kaikatsu wrote:First, to address the minor issue -- Paul's writings need some context. Homosexuality was NOT popular back then, it had social values against it from Orthodox Judaism which were already deeply in place. Now take verse 28 closely.
You are aware 'Back Then' was the Roman Empire, and in the Roman Empire, it was socially acceptable for a man to have young male partners? Plural?
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Post by kaikatsu »

Yes, I really should have clarified that. Paul was a Jew, writing -- in many cases -- to Jews or people that had been brought to Christ BY Jews, so I was speaking of a Jewish context.

The problem with homosexuality stemmed from the Jewish community, and Paul was raised a strict orthodox Jew. Naturally he saw homosexuality as a symptom of a greater evil.
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Post by wolveraptor »

:wtf: I thought Paul was a Greek, and was the one who espoused Gentiles, unlike Peter, who rejected them?
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