Lords of Chaos (Amber) vs. Chaos Gods (40k)

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-09-07 05:33am

ok who would win?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-09-07 07:31am

Some stats would be nice as I next to nothing on the Chaos gods and didn't know Amber even existed before this post.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-09-07 08:46pm

This is pretty tough.

And as for quantifiable powers/stats? AHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA!

AHAHAHHAHAAH!

GaaaaaHAHAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Whoooooheeeheeheeheehee...

Anyhow. Quantifiable? No. Not ever. Characters in Amber collapse ENTIRE REALITIES from time to time. They exist as superhuman immortals (way beyond even the primarchs - though, the mid-level Lords of Chaos would be Primarch equivs probably) with the ability to move between dimensions/realities at a whim and with the power to forcibly alter (Chaos use Logrus, a destructive power) the realities around them.

MAYBE. MAAAAAYBEEEEE the Chaos Gods can stand up to them, but it would require an insane act of willpower and cooperation on their part due to the incalculable forces under the control of the Lords of Chaos. Each member of this "feudal type" society control tens->hundreds or even thousands of UNIVERSES whose resources they can draw upon - their control of time and the contents of these universes swing the balance immeasurably in their favour. Fancy a thousand DS2s in a half hour - use the power of logrus to initiate construction and then speed up time in that "shadow" to the point where they are finished in no time at all. Hell - using the Logrus they could even reach out and find a universe with a God Emperor who is still alive and drag him into the new reality and shove him down a Chaos Gods throat.

Lords of Chaos ARE NOT COOL. But the Chaos Gods "ethereal" status may give them a survival chance if they are not tied to the 40K universe.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-09-07 08:53pm

Lords Of Chaos simply snuff out the emotions of everyone in the 40k verse. Or alter the laws to complete the Great Warding, over the entire universe.

You can quantify Amber, but it's mostly so ridiculously high-level Gods can't approach.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2005-09-07 10:23pm

I have this odd feeling that the chaos gods are a wee bit more powerful then the Chaos Lords. For one thing, the chaos lords have to traverse the logrus in order to grant powers, and even then they have to pull things from shadow or walk to them. They also run the gambit of human emotions, both Merlin's brother and his mother being manipulative cunts and his have brother being a vindictive mother fucker. The fact that they have so long to get over these things and don't probably put them in the realm of falling to one of the chaos gods. The way the magic works in the amberverse would mean selling out to tzeentch for the ability to work magic faster looks good, even if the lords don't plan that far ahead, which is a laughable idea. I'd be more willing to put the Logrus or Pattern itself against the Chaos gods.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-09-07 10:53pm

That would be just plain UNFAIR. Pattern would likely DESTROY the Chaos Gods (and the 40K shadow and other surrounding shadows on contacts). Though, it is possible that the 40K Chaos Gods are some form of broken pattern/logrus incarnate.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2005-09-07 10:56pm

weemadando wrote:That would be just plain UNFAIR. Pattern would likely DESTROY the Chaos Gods (and the 40K shadow and other surrounding shadows on contacts). Though, it is possible that the 40K Chaos Gods are some form of broken pattern/logrus incarnate.

Primal children of the Logrus. That would be frightening. But the pattern would have problems getting to the chaos gods if they're further back in Logrus territory. It was using pattern constructs to get at various amberites even before they were in the realms more towards shadow (Rinaldo's 'Wife' who had the Jewel of Judgement).

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-09-07 11:15pm

This is interesting - reckon that the Emperor is the Pattern incarnate in the 40K verse?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-09-08 01:36am

we should have known Oberon would have fathered that git in another shadow.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2005-09-08 04:48am

The Lords of Chaos and their royal counterparts in Amber have a lot of control over reality, but it's mainly due to the nature of their particular cosmos. Let's look at Merlin, one of the most well-rounded characters. He has physical stats on the same level as Spider-Man (in strength at least) and extremely good magic, though it's not ridiculously powerful if compared to the Epic levels of AD&D. Most of Merlin's greater, world-shaking abilities are connected to his manipulation of Shadow, which is more a property of the cosmos than part of his own personal power. The Chaos Gods are much more powerful beings, more like the sentient Pattern, Logrus and Ghostwheel. Merlin might be able to do nasty things to them by messing with their Shadows, but that is like messing with Bugs Bunny from outside the cartoon by erasing and redrawing him. Basically, the Princes of Amber and Lords of Chaos get their unbelievable power by looking through the curtain and messing with the innards of reality.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-09-08 08:25am

Dude - you just made our point for us.

Chaosites and Amberites have the ability to in EVERY WAY break the 4th wall of reality.

Chaos gods just don't from what we know.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-09-08 08:30am

Oh and also - their particular "cosmos" contains ALL other "cosmoses".

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2005-09-08 10:23am

As far as I can recall, the only entities shown being able to ruin shadows are the Logrus and Pattern, which was only done when Oberon restored the Pattern and Ghostwheel, who tells merlin that he could bring a shadowstorm wherever when he was asked about that. Alot of Merlin's power comes from the Spikard, and that all comes from sites of elemental energy and foetal/braindead gods(if I remember the passage right). Corrupting those points and then letting them corrupt Merlin would be easyt. There's also the fact that the Courts and Amber both have Lords/entire families dedicated to war (Benedict the Betrayer has a nice ring to it and the hell maids(right name?) would make excellent Khorne Berzerkers), are entrenched in blackmail, back stabbing and general veil of secrets, and lets not forget that there were a metric fuckton of Chaosites in line for the throne before Merlin's family began taking them out. Every chaos god but Nurgle would already have an in road to bringing down both groups.

As for the Emperor being a Pattern incarnate, maybe a Rogue Lord of Chaos or one of Oberon's oldest sons.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-09-08 11:33am

Tasoth wrote: Alot of Merlin's power comes from the Spikard, and that all comes from sites of elemental energy and foetal/braindead gods(if I remember the passage right). Corrupting those points and then letting them corrupt Merlin would be easyt. There's also the fact that the Courts and Amber both have Lords/entire families dedicated to war (Benedict the Betrayer has a nice ring to it and the hell maids(right name?) would make excellent Khorne Berzerkers), are entrenched in blackmail, back stabbing and general veil of secrets, and lets not forget that there were a metric fuckton of Chaosites in line for the throne before Merlin's family began taking them out. Every chaos god but Nurgle would already have an in road to bringing down both groups.

The Amber/Courts of Chaos multiverse is permeated with the influence of the Logrus and the Patterns, especially the Princes of Amber and the nobility of the Courts. The Princes in fact will warp nearby Shadows if they reside in one too long.

I expect that 40k Chaos will be unable to penetrate the influence of the Primal Forces of Order and Chaos; and if they can I doubt they can touch the higher level beings.

Hendrake · Post by **Hendrake** » 2005-09-08 11:59am

Well, if I rember right Merlin's foster brother Mandor knows/claims to know a Logrus manipulation to call enaugh Primal Chaos to consume an entire Shadow (reality), so some of them at least are probably capable of casting it.

And as for the OP, what's the setup? Is it a cage match? If so, I'm going to give it to the Chaos Gods, as the Lords of Chaos are superhuman but hardly immortal. Is it a planned attack or an all-out war? if so, I'd give it to the Logrus Masters since they simply could strike them from home leaving little room for retaliation.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-09-08 03:12pm

That was used in the war between Chaos and Amber when chaos killed a lot of Amber's footsoldiers by creating a shadow storm

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2005-09-08 03:14pm

Logrus initialized Chaos denizens are taught how to destroy universes. They simply open a pathway to chaos into the universe and let it consume that world.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2005-09-08 06:48pm

SyntaxVorlon wrote:Logrus initialized Chaos denizens are taught how to destroy universes. They simply open a pathway to chaos into the universe and let it consume that world.

That may not hurt the Chaos Gods, though. Considering where they live, that could conceivably increase their power.

LordChaos · Post by **LordChaos** » 2005-09-08 06:59pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:we should have known Oberon would have fathered that git in another shadow.

Of course! Only Zues got more tail then Oberon.... and that's only because Oberon was too busy making sure his head remained on his shoulders....