Turbolasers, the ICS, and strek-v-swars

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Post by Vympel »

Hot Hands Harry wrote:Yeah, its continuing. BHMM is still insisting that only MTL fired in the TESB astrioid seen but refuses to show me where on the model they are. Plus he still has his upper and lower limits confused.
Because he's quite simply spouting bullshit. There is *no* visible armament anywhere near where those turbolaser bolts appeared in the asteroid scene. The only visible armament are the main turrets, and an ambiguous structure in the backmost brim notch on the port side that *might* and I stress *might* be armament, never mind that my personal inspection of the model when it came to Australia could not readily discern a barrel- never mind that no relevant blasts come from anywhere near even that.

And as for variable power settings- there's a quote that proves it beyond dispute in the RotJ novelization. Check the canon database. Admiral Ackbar gives the order for Home One/ Headquarters Frigate to double power on the main battery. Open and shut.
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Post by Hot Hands Harry »

Well this is the new stuff that BigHairyMountonMan is up to. Tell me what you think of his numbers method.
Let us define:

Intensity: I

Power: P

Volumetric Energy Density: D You may think of this as the temperature of the bolt, or its intrinsic brightness per unit size.

Bolt Speed: V

Bolt Length: L

Bolt Width: W

Bolt Duration: T

Bolt Energy: E

Let k represent pi/4.


E=kDLW^2 Energy is proportional to the volume of the bolt times the energy density of the bolt.
T=L/V Bolt duration is equal to the length divided by the speed.
P=E/T=EV/L=kDVW^2 Power is equal to energy divided by time.
I=P/(kW^2)=DV Intensity equals power divided by area, i.e., the energy density times the speed.

Now, there are two models for turbolaser bolts. Curiously enough, unlike AT-ATs, the apparent intrinsic brightness/temperature of the bolt remains constant during all known firings, which simplifies matters somewhat.

First, the bolts are fired from the same weapon, in which case actual bolt diameter is held constant, and the apparent width is actually the result in intrinsic brightness in some sort of camera effect, i.e., energy density ~ apparent width. In this case, a 7.5 meter wide, 50 meter long bolt (e.g., such as those seen asteroid blasting in TESB with 5-500 terajoule energy) would have, relative to a 5 meter long, 0.5 meter wide bolt of the same speed, as seen striking the Falcon:

150 times the energy.

15 times the intensity.

15 times the power.

I.e., given an impact time of 1/15th-1/30th second (1-2 frame) impact for the 50 meter bolt (with, therefore, a 750-1500 m/s speed), the 5 meter long bolt would have a:

Yield equal to 7.85 to 785 tons of TNT.

5 terawatts to 1 petawatts' power.

Of course, we could consider it as the temperature of the bolt... in which case, thanks to the fourth power dependence of temperature and radiative energy, means a factor of 50,625, which would in turn mean that the Falcon was severely threatened by several megajoules of energy - i.e., much too low. It's much more generous to assume a bolt intensity relation directly to energy through an alternative mechanism of release than radiated thermal energy (which wouldn't fit anyway).

Now, if bolt diameter is actual bolt diameter, rather than brightness, then the 5 meter bolt would have:

1/2250th the energy - i.e., 2.2-220 gigajoules. Reasonably matches up with the observed range of fighter weapon energy yields, represents a 300-30,000 megajoule per cubic meter density.

The same intensity of 1.7-340 terawatts per square meter.

1/225th the power.


So what, then, of a 22.5 meter wide, 500 meter long bolt, with ten times the speed? Well, it would have, given an uncertain actual diameter no less than those of previous bolts:

30-90 times the energy - i.e., up to 4.5 petajoules, but at least 150 terajoules.

10-30 times the intensity.

30-90 times the power.

Notice anything? Bolt geometry supports remarkably similar conclusions to analyzing the ISD as a naval vessel with a role to fulfill.

Bolt geometry also suggests that if the same weapons are firing the 5m and 50m bolts, they consume dramatically different amounts of energy over time. Even the instantaneous power draw is dramatically different.

Is it impossible that these are the same weapons? No, just highly improbable that these all are the same grade of weapon... even if the bolts are fired from a similarly sized bore. And the model fits the existing evidence best when the TLs are different rather than identical in actual width, suggesting they were fired by different bore weapons.

Anticipated responses:

But the visible bolt doesn't indicate anything!
Ans #1: Actually, the persistent byproduct of an invisible bolt gun would be expected to maintain similarly close relations to the yield of the weapon.
Ans #2: The visible bolts are consistently described in both novelizations and screenplays/scripts to be what deals damage.

But the size doesn't have anything to do with anything!
Ans: Size has everything to do with it. The presumption that visible bolt brightness has something to do with the energy density is one thoroughly justified by the variation in brightness of AT-AT bolts when ordered to "maximum" as well as all other occurances of varying bolt brightnesses. This then leaves us with very simple analysis of bolts with the same apparent intrinsic brightness.
The apparent intrinsic brightness seems roughly constant over all ISD bolts.

But the ICS says they're all light turbolasers!
Ans: Light turbolasers with dramatically different behavior, apparently. Perhaps "light" in that particular case refers to "not being the heaviest weapon" in the same sense that I might describe secondary weapons on a battleship as "light" instead of the more useful term of "medium."

But the heavy weapons should be arbitrarily heavier!
Ans: Not really, no. There's nothing within the movies, novelizations, or screenplays that requires heavy weapons to be arbitrarily heavier. Very little even remotely suggests that.

But the Death Star...
...is a unique weapon system that operates entirely differently from ship-grade turbolasers, and is powered by an exotically different reactor, per ANH novelization's description of its remains' behavior vs the descriptions of every normal starship's destruction.

But what about the size of the weapons?
Ans: Bolt geometry suggests a difference of a factor of ~5,000-200,000 in yield per shot based on bolt sizes, with the mid-sized bolts used to blast asteroids in TESB falling near the geometric mean. This range is very similar to the range suggested by both contemporary naval examples and that suggested by the gun sizes themselves, as well as the use of thermonuclear weapons against SW capital ships, etc etc. It all fits in very nicely with heavy shots peaking into the low megaton range and having a power in the mid to high petawatt range during the actual shot.

This incidentally tells us that SW armor is made of rather normal materials, much as the destroyed tower suggests.

But how do TLs work anyway?
I can provide detailed models if necessary... but those aren't necessary for this analysis.
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Post by Stark »

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Quick, everyone, lets count the unsupported claims! Gotta love people slipping in things like they're facts without having to prove them, huh?

And ... woo... HE KNOWS HOW TURBOLASERS WORK, but he DOESN'T WANT TO SAY RIGHT NOW. You can't make this shit up. Why would someone spin this much shit when the facts onscreen easily lead to a different, clearer conclusion that doesn't depend on being a wanker?
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Before we even delve into the mockery of the rest of that morons wanking let's just see the terms.
idiot on swvsst wrote: Intensity: I

Power: P

Volumetric Energy Density: D You may think of this as the temperature of the bolt, or its intrinsic brightness per unit size.

Bolt Speed: V

Bolt Length: L

Bolt Width: W

Bolt Duration: T

Bolt Energy: E
For fuck's sake...let's just say the fact he label BOLT Speed, to indicate what he has to be talking about, when it's just V= velocity of said object.

Let's point out the other fun stuff

Length?!

Width?!

BRIGHTNESS?!

Okay, these can be used, but not in the manner he does. This is what watching trek does to you when you do not back up real science with their bullshit technobabble
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Post by Darth Servo »

This is why I don't post there anymore. :roll:
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Post by Hot Hands Harry »

Vympel wrote:Because he's quite simply spouting bullshit. There is *no* visible armament anywhere near where those turbolaser bolts appeared in the asteroid scene. The only visible armament are the main turrets, and an ambiguous structure in the backmost brim notch on the port side that *might* and I stress *might* be armament, never mind that my personal inspection of the model when it came to Australia could not readily discern a barrel- never mind that no relevant blasts come from anywhere near even that.

And as for variable power settings- there's a quote that proves it beyond dispute in the RotJ novelization. Check the canon database. Admiral Ackbar gives the order for Home One/ Headquarters Frigate to double power on the main battery. Open and shut.
Yeah, I found the quote.
Source: ROTJ novelization p.141
"We've added power to the forward shield, Admiral."

"Good. Double power on the main battery, and-"

He just said that it meant increase rate of fire and promptly dropped it. Which is BS.

Anyway now he has gone insane and says that this in the green circle is a MTL. +++http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/391/ ... 1kv.th.jpg Even though its nowhere near that size.
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Post by Darth Servo »

Hot Hands Harry wrote:Anyway now he has gone insane and says that this in the green circle is a MTL. +++http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/391/ ... 1kv.th.jpg Even though its nowhere near that size.
Um, what green circle? Its a pretty small pic too. :x
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Post by Xess »

Darth Servo wrote:Um, what green circle? Its a pretty small pic too. :x
I think he means this picture here:
++http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... les4yn.gif
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Post by Mange »

Xess wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:Um, what green circle? Its a pretty small pic too. :x
I think he means this picture here:
++http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... les4yn.gif
That's an ISD-I, and where does he see a cannon in the green circle? :?
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Post by Darth Servo »

Mange the Swede wrote:That's an ISD-I, and where does he see a cannon in the green circle? :?
Indeed. That is probably a medium in the purple circle but I still don't see anything even remotely resembling a turret in the green.
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Post by Hot Hands Harry »

Sorry, I meant this picture. +++http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... eii1kv.jpg As you can see in the green circle he thinks that LTL is a MTL for some reason. (Hopefully the right link works this time).
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

After carefully examining the picture, I can make it out. I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Dumbass and say it looks like a Medium Turbolaser. We know where the Heavies are (off-camera in this case) and since we only see one kind of turrent, I think the most logical assumption is that the Light Turbolasers are too small to see. If it was a Light, where are the Mediums?
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Post by Xess »

Adrian Laguna wrote:If it was a Light, where are the Mediums?
Back in the brim notch in a quad turret on the IMP-I and non-existant on the IMP-II, I think anyway.
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Post by NRS Guardian »

True, the ISD-II doesn't have the quads in the aft brim notches like the ISD-I. The Avenger, which IIRC is the ISD in the asteroid scene, is an ISD-II, so it doesn't have the quads.
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Post by Hot Hands Harry »

Adrian Laguna wrote:After carefully examining the picture, I can make it out. I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Dumbass and say it looks like a Medium Turbolaser. We know where the Heavies are (off-camera in this case) and since we only see one kind of turrent, I think the most logical assumption is that the Light Turbolasers are too small to see. If it was a Light, where are the Mediums?
Here are the MTL +++http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbradf ... Side_3.jpg The quad gun in the brim trench. You can also see a HTL in the upper right. To the left of the MTL in the trench is a box like LTL turret. The turret has several LTL barrels that are to small to see.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

The turrents shown in the first image are larger than the light turbolasers in the second. I've changed my stance from "I agree with Mr. Dumbass" to "I don't have a fucking clue, but you might be right."
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Post by Xess »

Adrian Laguna wrote:The turrents shown in the first image are larger than the light turbolasers in the second. I've changed my stance from "I agree with Mr. Dumbass" to "I don't have a fucking clue, but you might be right."
A LTL battery rather than a single turret perhaps.
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Post by Lone_Prodigy »

It was amusing to argue there for a while against BHMM. Then he began to blatantly ignore everything I said, so I told him to fuck off. Since he is a moderator, our entire seven-page debate disappeared. Check it– I believe it's in their Star Wars forum. It's about the Empire Strikes Back turbolaser analysis. My first reply is still there, but everything else is gone.
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Post by Mange »

Lone_Prodigy wrote:It was amusing to argue there for a while against BHMM. Then he began to blatantly ignore everything I said, so I told him to fuck off. Since he is a moderator, our entire seven-page debate disappeared. Check it– I believe it's in their Star Wars forum. It's about the Empire Strikes Back turbolaser analysis. My first reply is still there, but everything else is gone.
Hmm, I believe I found the thread and I believe it's intact (it was in the Star Trek vs Star Wars forum over there):
+http://www.strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/vie ... sc&start=0
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Post by Rampage »

I think it's kind of rediculous trying to find small guns on a mile-long warship. Hell, it's hard enough finding all of the anti-aircraft artillery on an Iowa-class Battleship, which is nowhere near the size of an ISD, and it's point-defense guns are just about the same size..So how are you going to pick a small gun out of a mile-long warship?

Let's look at what could possibly be some of the larger medium guns.

ISD

Forward medium gun ports?

ISD part 2

Port large medium gunports?

ISD part 3

A fairly large turret on the port side?

ISD part 4

Aft cannons? Let's take a closer look at this one.

ISD part 5

Definately look like turreted cannons to me.

You can go on all day spotting guns on the Avenger model. And the really light point-defense guns are small enough to be housed in any of those little bumps on the surface..
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