Is Star Wars a ripoff?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2002-11-27 04:54pm

Can it be true?! Think on this;

1)Tattooine=Arrakis.
2)Vaporators=Dew precipitators.
3)Kessel Spice=Melange. Without the EU, what are we to think of that?
4)Stormtroopers=Saudakar. Soldier fanatics of the Emperor by any other name....
5)Spice smugglers=Spice smugglers.

Now for the "mere" similarities.

1)Luke Skywalker and Paul Atreides. One is a farmboy, the other's a scion of nobility, but, they're both youngsters of destiny and martial arts prowess.
2)The Jedi and the Bene Gesserit. They're both ancient schools dedicated to keeping peace in their respective galaxies. The Jedi are pro-active, the BG are arbitrators.
3)Swordsmanship features prominently in both sagas.
4)Fremen and Tusken Raiders. If you just go by verbal descrptions, the TR costumes could make a more convincing robed Fremen in stillsuit than has been portrayed in the actual Dune films.
5)The Galactic Empire of Palpatine and the Empire of the Padishahs. While in Children of Dune the Empire is described as "multi galactic" with a population of "mega-trillions", I'm sure you see my point.
6)Time scale. Both Empires are approximately 25,000 years old.

And as a final note. In Heretics of Dune, Frank Herbert describes a trio of luxury woods employed as status symbols in the Old Empire.
Those of lesser means employ plastic simulations. These plastics all begin with "PO".
The three POs are cheap plastic imitations. Poor Threepio, how insulting.

thank bog for my asbestos clothing

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-27 05:26pm

I think Lucas had the book in mind when he did some of it. But a lot of stuff like troops devoted to an Emperor can be found in dozens of different movies and books. Really almost everything in filmed sci fi was already done in some way 10-20 years before in a book. I'd expect if you asked Lucas directly he'd say I got ideas from it, and that would be the truth.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-27 05:28pm

1)Tattooine=Arrakis.

A dirt ball in the Back end of Nowhere for its entire life and existance VS the Seat of an Empire and the producer of a product everyone must have?
The only thing they share between them is sand...

2)Vaporators=Dew precipitators

Thats how one gets water out of the air, Guess the ones in real life are a rip off of dune as well eh?

3)Kessel Spice=Melange. Without the EU, what are we to think of that?

Lets see a otherwise harmless photoactive substance produced deep underground by ENERGY SPIDERS?! VS A Dangerious Substance that must be consumed for a lifetime or die and in certian people gives them vison abilitys

4)Stormtroopers=Saudakar. Soldier fanatics of the Emperor by any other name....

The Saudakar are not Clones of Jango Fett are they?

Nor do they drop Lasguns at first opertiunity and go Hand to Hand oh and they wear effective armor(Damn Stormy armor with Dune style shielding? They would be untoucable)

5)Spice smugglers=Spice smugglers.

Guess 12th Century Spice Smugglers where a rip off of Dune as well and don't forget all those fakers during the 3rd Century in China
All stolen from Dune I tells ya!

1)Luke Skywalker and Paul Atreides. One is a farmboy, the other's a scion of nobility, but, they're both youngsters of destiny and martial arts prowess.

Luke? Paaa it was not until the Emperor reborn trained him he was acutal a good swordsman, he was fighting a stiff in a suit, Samual could have taken Vadar apart in a sword fight in under eight seconds not to mention Maul!(God he would have kick Luke's ass so easily)

2)The Jedi and the Bene Gesserit. They're both ancient schools dedicated to keeping peace in their respective galaxies. The Jedi are pro-active, the BG are arbitrators.

Pah agian! Bene Gesserit are master planers, the Jedi are bumbling Judges(Towards the End anyway, before they where just smart Judges)
Thats not even similar, If you want somthing similar Try the Second Foundationers

3)Swordsmanship features prominently in both sagas.

To a point...

4)Fremen and Tusken Raiders. If you just go by verbal descrptions, the TR costumes could make a more convincing robed Fremen in stillsuit than has been portrayed in the actual Dune films.

The Tuskens however do not live in Cave Warriens they live on the Sands 24/7 and are not human(Nor are they good fighters)

5)The Galactic Empire of Palpatine and the Empire of the Padishahs. While in Children of Dune the Empire is described as "multi galactic" with a population of "mega-trillions", I'm sure you see my point.

Palpatine's Empire truely WAS an Empire not the Padishah's kinda Empire that was FOREVER at the measry of the Guild Navagators and was not even strongly settled

6)Time scale. Both Empires are approximately 25,000 years old.

Acutal the SW Empires are even older, 25k Marks the Fall since Xim the Despot the last of the Despot Rules, An unknow period before the Galaxy was united under tryannical rulers

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-11-27 05:43pm

Supposedly, SW is a blatant ripoff of EE Doc Smiths Lensmen saga. The original drafts of SW, i hear, were almost identical. I think. :

:

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-27 05:45pm

kojikun wrote:Supposedly, SW is a blatant ripoff of EE Doc Smiths Lensmen saga. The original drafts of SW, i hear, were almost identical. I think. ::

Really I heard that about Outlaw Star.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-11-27 05:56pm

I am as much a fan of Dune as anyone, but i think ur talking through ur Still-Suits anal waste flap. Both are stories with similarities, Dune was a huge rip off of Lord Of The Rings if you wanna talk about comparisons, and use such tenuious links. All this over-analysation sucks the fun outta the stories. Just sit back and enjoy them.

Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader · Post by **Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader** » 2002-11-27 06:09pm

Darth Pounder wrote:I am as much a fan of Dune as anyone, but i think ur talking through ur Still-Suits anal waste flap. Both are stories with similarities, Dune was a huge rip off of Lord Of The Rings if you wanna talk about comparisons, and use such tenuious links. All this over-analysation sucks the fun outta the stories. Just sit back and enjoy them.

Its like alot of people say: you can't help but borrow ideas from somebody else. Soon, all the ideas will be dried up, and we'll be left with movies like Jackass. Oh, no, it's already happening!

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-27 06:11pm

Star Wars borrows from many movies/books. Like Asimovs. Hyperspace, a dying galaxy spanning government, blasters...

spongyblue · Post by **spongyblue** » 2002-11-27 08:38pm

I think all of this has less to do with borrowing then it has to do with reaccuring themes in life. Hate, anger, responsibility, destiny are all things common in humanity and thats what all of these stories try to do in a colorful way.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-27 08:38pm

Maybe it's subconscious influence.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2002-11-27 08:39pm

Gah! DOuble post!

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2002-11-27 08:44pm

All quotes are Mr. Bean's

Lets see a otherwise harmless photoactive substance produced deep underground by ENERGY SPIDERS?! VS A Dangerious Substance that must be consumed for a lifetime or die and in certian people gives them vison abilitys

I reitirate, without the explanation of the EU, what are we left with?
Or, if you prefer, an otherwise harmless photoactive substance produced deep underground by energy spiders vs a life extending substance produced deep underground by worms with fire in their gullets.

The Saudakar are not Clones of Jango Fett are they? Nor do they drop Lasguns at first opertiunity and go Hand to Hand oh and they wear effective armor(Damn Stormy armor with Dune style shielding? They would be untoucable)

Were Stormtrooper armor to go up in a thermonuclear MAD on contact with beam weapons, they'd go mano a mano too.

Luke? Paaa it was not until the Emperor reborn trained him he was acutal a good swordsman, he was fighting a stiff in a suit, Samual could have taken Vadar apart in a sword fight in under eight seconds not to mention Maul!(God he would have kick Luke's ass so easily)

Did you have to badmouth Darth Vader?

The Tuskens however do not live in Cave Warriens they live on the Sands 24/7 and are not human(Nor are they good fighters)

True enough, but they sure look the part, don't they? That's the point I was trying to make in the first place.

Palpatine's Empire truely WAS an Empire not the Padishah's kinda Empire that was FOREVER at the measry of the Guild Navagators and was not even strongly settled

Mega-trillions sounds strongly settled to me, and, are there no unexplored/sparsley settled regions in SW?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-27 09:10pm

Some visual and they say that's there is a popular rumor that Herbert himself believed SW was a rip-off of Dune...but aside from little things it's not really there.

As for LotR and Dune...WTF?

But that's for another day.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-27 09:14pm

SW borrows from numerous sources, but it is clearly primarily a reference to Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2002-11-27 09:20pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Some visual and they say that's there is a popular rumor that Herbert himself believed SW was a rip-off of Dune...but aside from little things it's not really there.

As for LotR and Dune...WTF?

But that's for another day.

The basic storylines are quite different, yes. And I believe Herbert's 3 POs bit was a hilarious jab at the whole issue.
And I, also, have to say WTF to the LotR thang.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-11-28 08:54am

Wasn't Star Wars meant to be a fantasy story set in a sci-fi setting??

BTW, Star Wars can also be seen as a futuristic biography of Gaius Julius Caesar.

Palpatine = Gaius Julius Caesar??
Stormtroopers = Legionnaires??
Acclamator Troop Transports = Roman war galleys??
Crimson Guard = Praetorian Guard??
Darth Vader = Brutus??
Clone Wars = Gallic Wars??

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-28 10:05am

Mega-trillions sounds strongly settled to me, and, are there no unexplored/sparsley settled regions in SW?

Mega-Trillions?

There are Trillions on Courscant ALONE and 80 Planets as Densley settled as it is, Also witness the diffence between the Two, The Empire is a TRUE Empire, Not an Empire as long as the Guild Navigators say so

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2002-11-28 12:08pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Mega-trillions sounds strongly settled to me, and, are there no unexplored/sparsley settled regions in SW?
Mega-Trillions?

There are Trillions on Courscant ALONE and 80 Planets as Densley settled as it is, Also witness the diffence between the Two, The Empire is a TRUE Empire, Not an Empire as long as the Guild Navigators say so

How the Spacing Guild's support or lack thereof determining WHO sits on the throne has anything to do with the structure of the Empire eludes me.
ShaddamIV was the 81st Corrino to occupy the Golden Lion throne, not some Johnny-come-lately pretender who had to claw his way to power creating an atmosphere of rebellion and instability.
The Empire of the Padishahs stood for millenia, with the Guild as a parasitic yet important backer of House Corrino.
And Webster's defines empire as;

1 a (1) : a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially : one having an emperor as chief of state (2) : the territory of such a political unit b : something resembling a political empire; especially : an extensive territory or enterprise under single domination or control
2 : imperial sovereignty, rule, or dominion

I believe that both fit this definition, correct?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-28 12:21pm

How the Spacing Guild's support or lack thereof determining WHO sits on the throne has anything to do with the structure of the Empire eludes me.

Its because the Empire of Dune is DEPANDANT on the Guild to mantaine thier power, Exculding the usual(IE the Military) To have another free Agency not at all loyal to the Head of Goverment is a great weakness as it was exactly how he lost power!

Think of it this way, How strong would the US Goverment Be if we had no Navy or Airforce and all that was Handled by Guam, If Guam says no then we can't send our Troops anywhere

Think about how rediculious that is

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-28 12:27pm

Honestly what I think is funny is that it took Paul Atredies to get it right.

The Spacing Guild controls virtually everything, but they are dependant upon one item.

If you have sole control over that one item, then they are either loyal to you or they die.

Why did it take this long for them to realize this...I mean establish yourself as the dominant force on Arrakis, and bam...the Spacing Guild either kisses your feet or they die.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2002-11-28 12:45pm

Mr Bean wrote:
How the Spacing Guild's support or lack thereof determining WHO sits on the throne has anything to do with the structure of the Empire eludes me.
Its because the Empire of Dune is DEPANDANT on the Guild to mantaine thier power, Exculding the usual(IE the Military) To have another free Agency not at all loyal to the Head of Goverment is a great weakness as it was exactly how he lost power!

Think of it this way, How strong would the US Goverment Be if we had no Navy or Airforce and all that was Handled by Guam, If Guam says no then we can't send our Troops anywhere

Think about how rediculious that is

I see the point you're trying to make, a better analogy would be the FAA making those decisions.

Was the British Empire not an Empire because The East India Company ruled India?

The Guild WAS loyal to the throne, and vice versa. Simply because power was divided between the Throne, Guild, and the Landsraad, does not mean that the term empire does not apply.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-11-28 02:30pm

The Guild were loyal to themselves only, the Fudal structure suited their purposes and as for them supporting the Corrino's well they were there from the start and the Guild abhorr change and progress.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-28 03:22pm

Acutal the SW Empires are even older, 25k Marks the Fall since Xim the Despot the last of the Despot Rules, An unknow period before the Galaxy was united under tryannical rulers

[nitpick]Actually only warp and subspace tech was available to ol'Xim, and before him there was no FTL travel at all, although interstellar travel was acheived with sublight craft (Correlia and Alderaan were settled with sleeper ships approximately 30000-27000 years before Yavin).
After the invention of hyperdrive tech at Correlia, galaxy wide exploration commenced and numerous wars between small Empires raged throughout the galaxy, and afterwards the OR was founded to maintain peace throughout the galaxy.[/nitpick]

Regardless of that, George's biggest source of inspiration was doubtless Asimov's Galactic Empire.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-11-28 05:44pm

If Star Wars is a ripoff of anything, it's Asimov's Empire and Foundation series.

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2002-11-28 07:08pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Now for the "mere" similarities.

1)Luke Skywalker and Paul Atreides. One is a farmboy, the other's a scion of nobility, but, they're both youngsters of destiny and martial arts prowess.

In other words, they have as much in common with each other as they do Chris Farley in Beverly Hills Ninja.

I'll do you one better: Luke is an angst-filled teen made fun of by his peers without any biological parents. He develops these abilities to leap great distances, sense danger before it happens, and frequently swings and climbs cables. Lastly, he decided to fight evil after the tragic murder of his uncle.......

So does he have more in common with the scion, or

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