New Death Star Novel in the Works

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-10 11:01pm

Lets say it was built over twenty years, ok. Number one...it still produced VASTLY more energy than a star. Number two...why would you give a fuck? Number three...George Lucas knows more about the SW universe than anyone here, he MADE the fucker, mmkay. 'EU Facts' can suck a railspike, GL knows when and how and in what manner the machine he created was built and if he authorizes this novel and makes it cannon, good for him, godspeed.

So, your saying that the EU can fuck itself, because of another EU book? All EU books have to be authorized by LFL.

This jerking off to the DS build-times is and has always been to me silly. For Christ's sakes they have destroyers that can reduce a planet to molten slag, isnt that enough to satisfy you? Or how about this, the Galaxy Gun, better range and roughly equal power to the DS1 and 2, wank that for a while lord knows i have.

What the hell are you talking about? The concern is about continuity implications, not your "DS2 is teh wank!" crap.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-09-10 11:19pm

I'm saying whatever Lucas's original intent was, which appears to be what this book will adress, should be considered more promenant to the series than some other shmo who popped up latter with all maner of crap books to sell. It's pretty obvious (of cours enot yet completely settled), as much as people hate to say it, that thing at the end of ROTS was the DS1. George Lucas, the guy who made the thing up, seems to have decided it was built around that time, not later. The EU is irrelevent when the DUDE IN CHARGE decides to say fuck it, it took them twenty years. So no i mean that the EU only holds water as long as the guy who create dthe universe allows it to, when he decides otherwise, it changes, and not liking it will not change the fact that most likely THAT was the Death Star end of story.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-10 11:23pm

I'm saying whatever Lucas's original intent was, which appears to be what this book will adress, should be considered more promenant to the series than some other shmo who popped up latter with all maner of crap books to sell. It's pretty obvious (of cours enot yet completely settled), as much as people hate to say it, that thing at the end of ROTS was the DS1.

Yes, Cinematic style has presedence over all else.

George Lucas, the guy who made the thing up, seems to have decided it was built around that time, not later. The EU is irrelevent when the DUDE IN CHARGE decides to say fuck it, it took them twenty years. So no i mean that the EU only holds water as long as the guy who create dthe universe allows it to, when he decides otherwise, it changes, and not liking it will not change the fact that most likely THAT was the Death Star end of story.

And yet, for all your ranting, there is absolutely no evidence that any EU will be disregarded. Please, is there any substance to this tyraid, or is it simple "EU SUxx0rz!" ?

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-09-10 11:30pm

Whoa, whoa. I never said, ever the EU sucks. In fact, i'm oen of the few fans/defenders of Dark Empire here, i think the EU is important to Star Wars but only in the sense of a continuation and the groudn work for a backstory. It shouldnt, however, override the original intent of the series, from the creator's standpoint. Because most of those stories were done with probably minimal imput from Lucas and probably pulled from the imagination of someone else.

I was ranting though and i was unclear, forgive my tirade

. I'll go a bit deeper. I meant IF this story does contradict the EU, which it may not as you yourself said, it's probably because this was the way the creator of the series intended. Thus, whatever the EU says, it'll just have to be reconciled. Most of it, you said yourself, is easily reconciled.

Which brings me to the point, since most can be easily reconciled then most of the 'controversy' is about DS power and build time and it is.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-10 11:55pm

I was ranting though and i was unclear, forgive my tirade . I'll go a bit deeper. I meant IF this story does contradict the EU, which it may not as you yourself said, it's probably because this was the way the creator of the series intended. Thus, whatever the EU says, it'll just have to be reconciled. Most of it, you said yourself, is easily reconciled.

It is true, if there is a true contradiction, due to GL's intent, then yes, some previous work will be overridden. However, I find that circumstance highly unlikely due to LFL's past efforts to keep all of the EU in line (more with the novels than the rest perhaps, but there is consistancy throughout.)

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-09-11 12:04am

I also just dont see why it's so impossible to believe that the DS at the end of ROTS was THE Death Star.

It's like the whole Palpatine's Face BS...the most obvious answer is all but OUTRIGHT STATED and people dont seem to accept it because it goes against their preconcieved ideas. It's staring them in the face (Pun intended) and they just dont want to see it.

I mean, GL cant hold the viewers hand and do a live comentary explaining every subtle scene in the movie. Some stuff is made as clear and obvious as it can possibly be without corny 50s sicfi like periods of people standing and discussing it.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-09-11 12:12am

Chris OFarrell wrote:Its irrelevent at any rate because the DS2 is a solid figure that can't really be altered and as its just a LITTLE bigger then the DS1, its more useful.

True. But if you have been able to notice, I had been half-joking about the Trek/Wars angle (seeing even an order of magnitude loss does not affect the conclusion).

Can we WAIT for it to come out for you to start screaming about the fact that it doesn't inflate the Galactic Empire enough for your tastes?

Well, one can always wish for a book to go their way. It is not really so much inflating or deflating the Galactic Empire. Those are purely personal. If they decided to integrate the story in such a way that the DS1 was built in six months now, I'm not going to be too pleased either.

I'd have to admit I was ranting a bit there. But if you read the signal between the rant, my real concern is the overall strength of the continuity.

I'd also have to say part of my anger at the change is really because of how it was done. Lucas wants DS1 to make an appearance in ROTS? Fine - it's his world and he can roll over EU as he sees fit. He tries to pass off that sphere as DS1? Not acceptable, because he'd roll over his own shit.

The best case we can hope for now, if LFL is seriously on enforcing the idea that the sphere = DS1, is that the MedStar guys notice the visual inconsistency and come up with a good patch. However, we know that in general, EU authors do not observe the screen closely. Without that patch, we are in potential hot water.

You see, I actually rather liked the MedStar series, and even in my pessimism I noted they are probably some of the best guys available for this job. But if they don't patch it up right, it'd bump up against the ANH G-canon. Imagine a rather good source being excised because of this - kinda a shame, isn't it?

And all this because Lucas didn't take one of two alternate paths:
1) Great Weapon is separate from the Death Star.
2) That sphere in ROTS can actually look like an uncomplete version of his ANH Death Star.

Can you see my reasons for anger now? Trek/Wars or minimalism/maximalism is at best a Quarternary concern. The consistency and the danger of having to throw out a perfectly good source are my Primaries.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:I also just dont see why it's so impossible to believe that the DS at the end of ROTS was THE Death Star.

I have no trouble believing that that's what Lucas wanted.

But I expect authors and directors to actually work for the conclusions they want us to make - as opposed to against.

That means:
1) If you want people to accept Rebel Intelligence as competent, don't make reports in their name with the wrong sizes of all their direst threats.
2) If you want us to sympathize with Imperial defectors to the Rebellion, don't give me crappy sob stories like Huoba Neva.
3) The idea that Imps are overconfident and the Rebs are cool and brave and all that is fine. But don't make Rebel reports into propaganda pieces!

...and of course...

4) If you want something to be the Death Star, make it look like it.

That's all. And if you don't do this, I'd go with what Direct Visualization of Evidence shows, even though I know very well what you want. Hopefully, you will actually support your wishes with your work the next time.

Instant Sunrise · Post by **Instant Sunrise** » 2005-09-11 04:17am

Lets wait for the DVD and listen to the commentary.

It may provide us with some insight on the Death Star issue.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-09-11 11:36am

skyman8081 wrote:Lets wait for the DVD and listen to the commentary.

It may provide us with some insight on the Death Star issue.

We know it was most likely GL's intent for the construct in Episode III to be the ANH Death Star, however, if it was, he didn't instruct ILM to get the RotS structure right, as it's proportions and indeed basic shape are incompatable with the ANH Death Star. So do we go with Lucas' intent, or do we go with what the visuals tell us?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-09-11 01:27pm

Suspension of disbelief would dictate visuals.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-09-12 02:04am

I don't see why this is such a big deal. Yes, I understand the difference in the way the two deathstars look, and the two massively different build timeframes which would be represented, but why can't we just make some logical assumptions about something this large being built for the first time that can satisfy all sides?

1. They tried to fire it for the first time and the whole thing exploded. Wouldn't be the first time a massive engineering project got fucked up. They make some modifications that the engineers wanted in the first place but didn't get because costs were going way over budget already. The accident sets the project back 5-10 years and the redesign explains the visual differences.

2. Palpatine didn't have the political power yet to get the thing built as fast as the second one. He had only been Emporer for like what, a week, when the scene in which we see the superstructure, takes place. So it's a much slower process than getting DSII built since he will be able to throw his full economical, engineering and logistical infrasructures behind the second one.

3. The entire proccess of building was being done in secret. The war was over. There was no great enemy left to fight or destroy so what would a giant spacestation with a superlaser be for? The Senate, as lame as they appeared to be, would want to know why a laser that could destroy THIER worlds would be needed. Remember the Senate was around and had some influence until ANH. So we can say that the original building precess was slowed by secrecy.

Uh... but wait. maybe this book will explain all this and clear the issue up?

Side thought: In ANH when R2 plugged into the Rebel computer to download the "technical readouts of that battlestation" it technically showed the equatorial trench running THROUGH the superlaser, which obviously wasn't how it was. Is there as big a deal made about that as this?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2005-09-12 02:53am

Oh, look. Another one of these threads. I would never have expected it to turn out like this.

bilateralrope · Post by **bilateralrope** » 2005-09-12 03:30am

havokeff wrote:1. They tried to fire it for the first time and the whole thing exploded. Wouldn't be the first time a massive engineering project got fucked up. They make some modifications that the engineers wanted in the first place but didn't get because costs were going way over budget already. The accident sets the project back 5-10 years and the redesign explains the visual differences.

The advantage with this reasoning is that if it doesn't give you enough time, you just add another explosion

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-09-13 02:51am

bilateralrope wrote:
havokeff wrote:1. They tried to fire it for the first time and the whole thing exploded. Wouldn't be the first time a massive engineering project got fucked up. They make some modifications that the engineers wanted in the first place but didn't get because costs were going way over budget already. The accident sets the project back 5-10 years and the redesign explains the visual differences.
The advantage with this reasoning is that if it doesn't give you enough time, you just add another explosion

Well yeah that would be great, but it wouldn't be needed. One explosion would suffice.

AOTC: Design finalized
ROTS 2 years into construction
3 years later, first test fire BOOM!!
1 year later re-design finalized
4 years later second test fire YEAY!!
4 years later deck construction complete
3 years later hull/skin complete
ANH "This station is now the ultimate power in the universe." "Final checkout is complete. What course shall we set?"
Seems resonable to me to me.

Another thing. While the DS was being bult the damage done from the Clone Wars and the new Imperial fleet were being fixed and built respectively. A galaxy wide cleanup and a galaxy spanning fleet would be a huge draw on resources that the DSII didn't have to compete with.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-09-13 03:53am

Sounds very reasonable. One explosion would be enough to throw the whole project into disarray, and chip off some time to investigate what went wrong and how to correct it.

Hey, throw in different sized prototypes being made after a few years, and then you´d have some work being done on a DS 2 scale as well. (Adding to the 3-year-span for the partial DS 2 construction.)

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-09-13 04:24am

The Death Star-concept was already designed: the Confeds were building their Great Weapon to win the war, not as a science experiment. Hypermatter fuel is apparently not unusual, so why would the GW be exploding all the time? The Weapon is a large-scale application of tested technology, so I'm not sure where this idea of cataclysmic explosion comes from. Frankly I think it's stupid.

I doubt the resources necessary to build 128k ISDs over 20 years really stacks up to the DS1 project.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-09-13 04:52am

Hey I'm not saying that its a fact, just a plausible possibility that can help explain the time span of construction, if indeed the DS in ANH is the one shown in ROTS.

The Titanic was a large scale version of tested technology and it sank.
The F-14 is a large scale version of tested tech and they still crash.
The Challenger was a large scale version of tested tech and it exploded.
My Bigscgeen TV was a large scale version if tested tech and it broke.
Are you seriously asking me to believe that there are NEVER any constuction/engineering/weapons testing accidents/mistakes in the galaxy far far away? So you can think tested technology fucking up is stupid all you want. It still happens.

And no, 128,000 ISDs may not stack up, but it would draw from the same resource pool.

Also, no matter how many resources the Empire had, you can only have so much work going on in one place at a time.

I personally think that instead of trying to figure out how DSI was built so slow, as it seems that's going to end up being the case, that we should figure out how DSII got built so fast.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-09-13 04:58am

havokeff wrote:I personally think that instead of trying to figure out how DSI was built so slow, as it seems that's going to end up being the case, that we should figure out how DSII got built so fast.

Because that's their industrial capacity, you dink.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-09-13 05:21am

havokeff wrote:Hey I'm not saying that its a fact, just a plausible possibility that can help explain the time span of construction, if indeed the DS in ANH is the one shown in ROTS.

The Titanic was a large scale version of tested technology and it sank.
The F-14 is a large scale version of tested tech and they still crash.
The Challenger was a large scale version of tested tech and it exploded.
My Bigscgeen TV was a large scale version if tested tech and it broke.
Are you seriously asking me to believe that there are NEVER any constuction/engineering/weapons testing accidents/mistakes in the galaxy far far away? So you can think tested technology fucking up is stupid all you want. It still happens.

And no, 128,000 ISDs may not stack up, but it would draw from the same resource pool.

Also, no matter how many resources the Empire had, you can only have so much work going on in one place at a time.

I personally think that instead of trying to figure out how DSI was built so slow, as it seems that's going to end up being the case, that we should figure out how DSII got built so fast.

Christ. 'Things break, so it's okay if we say that the DS blew up based on nothing but my ass'? That's your argument? It's horribly weak and almost baseless - admittedly, that's par for the course EU-wise, so it's not that bad. But lets be fucking serious - the Titanic sank because it hit an iceberg, not because they spun up the engines and catastrophically exploded because they got their sums wrong. The Challenger had known design flaws. F-14s are FIGHTER PLANES. Things fail, and we have these wizards called 'engineers' to make sure designs are safe enough that... oh... enormous planet-destroying battleships don't just fucking explode.

Not to mention the huge coverup, noone ever mentioning this enourmous failure, why it'd explode in the first place, why the Confeds obviously weren't worried, why nobody is shown reacting with 'OMGZ wtf d34th *???', etc etc. Something never hinted at, never shown to happen to anything else, with no precedent, happened because you don't like the alternative? I'm not saying the excerable EU writers won't make this a reality (nor will I care), but it's still both baseless and stupid.

'Drawn from same resource pool'?? Did you do the numbers? And I'd like to point something out. They control ... y'know... the whole galaxy. They have squidgillions of workers. Whole planets devoted to industry, Geonosis style. Think about that for a second. Read Mikes article on the Geonosian factory. Then wonder if all these ships are REALLY such a drain on the galactic economy.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-09-13 12:56pm

Ok then, maybe not an explosion, but there´s bound to be some "events"/accidents/missteps on the way, which might slow it down abit.

As for the fleet, by the time the DS II project got going, the Imperial Starfleet would already have been established and expanded upon. It might have had a tiny effect on the construction effort if less time was now devoted to building that. (And there´s the two Coruscant stations being built at the time also.)

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2005-09-13 02:06pm

I don't think it will be much of a book unless it includes a few design problems/disasters/attacks by rebels etc. The difference between the first DS and the second are probably that these issues plagued the first whereas the second did not suffer the same problems.

Either way, the book will tell us so be patient.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-09-13 03:08pm

Yeah, problems/conflict is guaranteed, otherwise it´ll be a pretty boring book.

Commander's journal, Day 238: Spilled hot Jawa Juice all over my new uniform. Poodoo! Went down to laundry, gazed at the stars outside. Everything is going according to schedule.

Day 4364: Overslept today. Got yelled out by Lord Vader. Man, what a creep! Went down to observation booth and gazed at the stars outside. Everything is going according to schedule.

Etc, etc...

:P

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-09-13 06:59pm

That's why its a stupid idea. It's a cynical cash-in on the 'oooooo Death Star' effect of the RoTS ending. The DS1 was secret, run by the military, etc. Every rebel attack and soap-opera drama weakens the 'secret battle station' from ANH. I can see the ANH-Xtreme Special Edition... Dodonna says 'Listen, I know the sixty-five OTHER attacks over the last twenty years haven't been so good, but we're really on to something now. I can feel it.'

So go on. Buy your EU books.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-09-13 06:59pm

Stark wrote:
havokeff wrote:Hey I'm not saying that its a fact, just a plausible possibility that can help explain the time span of construction, if indeed the DS in ANH is the one shown in ROTS.

The Titanic was a large scale version of tested technology and it sank.
The F-14 is a large scale version of tested tech and they still crash.
The Challenger was a large scale version of tested tech and it exploded.
My Bigscgeen TV was a large scale version if tested tech and it broke.
Are you seriously asking me to believe that there are NEVER any constuction/engineering/weapons testing accidents/mistakes in the galaxy far far away? So you can think tested technology fucking up is stupid all you want. It still happens.

And no, 128,000 ISDs may not stack up, but it would draw from the same resource pool.

Also, no matter how many resources the Empire had, you can only have so much work going on in one place at a time.

I personally think that instead of trying to figure out how DSI was built so slow, as it seems that's going to end up being the case, that we should figure out how DSII got built so fast.
Christ. 'Things break, so it's okay if we say that the DS blew up based on nothing but my ass'? That's your argument? It's horribly weak and almost baseless - admittedly, that's par for the course EU-wise, so it's not that bad. But lets be fucking serious - the Titanic sank because it hit an iceberg, not because they spun up the engines and catastrophically exploded because they got their sums wrong. The Challenger had known design flaws. F-14s are FIGHTER PLANES. Things fail, and we have these wizards called 'engineers' to make sure designs are safe enough that... oh... enormous planet-destroying battleships don't just fucking explode.

Not to mention the huge coverup, noone ever mentioning this enourmous failure, why it'd explode in the first place, why the Confeds obviously weren't worried, why nobody is shown reacting with 'OMGZ wtf d34th *???', etc etc. Something never hinted at, never shown to happen to anything else, with no precedent, happened because you don't like the alternative? I'm not saying the excerable EU writers won't make this a reality (nor will I care), but it's still both baseless and stupid.

'Drawn from same resource pool'?? Did you do the numbers? And I'd like to point something out. They control ... y'know... the whole galaxy. They have squidgillions of workers. Whole planets devoted to industry, Geonosis style. Think about that for a second. Read Mikes article on the Geonosian factory. Then wonder if all these ships are REALLY such a drain on the galactic economy.

First of all, I'm not making any argument. I'm just throwing out plausible scenarios (logical assumptions, I think is what I originally said) that could help to explain what is sure to be cannon since from what I understand the superstructure of the "GW" in ROTS is going to end up being the Death Star I.

And yes the Titanic hit an iceberg, but the engineers that built it said that it was unsinkable. Guess what? It sank.
Yes F-14 are fighter planes. It seems you are trying to say that they only explode or malfunction when they get shot or hit by a missle? Yeah ok.
And now it seems like you are trying to say engineers never make mistakes or miscalculate? Seriously? The bigger and more complicated you make something the better the chances of something going wrong.

Honestly, no I didn't "do the numbers". I don't care how many workers you have, even if it is squidgillions, you can only have so many people in one place at one time doing a job.

But you are right it is baseless. I totally pulled the idea out of thin air. That was never in question. Stupid? Maybe. But it is still plausible

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-13 07:08pm

Stark wrote:That's why its a stupid idea. It's a cynical cash-in on the 'oooooo Death Star' effect of the RoTS ending. The DS1 was secret, run by the military, etc. Every rebel attack and soap-opera drama weakens the 'secret battle station' from ANH. I can see the ANH-Xtreme Special Edition... Dodonna says 'Listen, I know the sixty-five OTHER attacks over the last twenty years haven't been so good, but we're really on to something now. I can feel it.'

So go on. Buy your EU books.

Geez, I'm devestated. My enjoyment of the EU could never withstand such a withering assault. You have destroyed me.

Honestly, is such cynicism deserved? Even though I like most of the EU, I will freely admit the more recent novels have been far better both enjoyment and continuity than some of the old. But of course, this will not disuade the more asshatted of us from "hur hur, teh st00pidz!" every time a new book is announced. Personally, I am eager for more news on the project (the fact that there is no info on the book other than a vague setting or plot point has not swayed the asshats in the slightest it seems.)