Arguing with Co-worker

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2005-09-14 06:20pm

Should I or Shouldn't I

I have a co-worker who is fairly religious and somehow the subject got onto Cain and Abel. He seems to be a pretty nice person in general on most subject and he does seem to at least believe in evolution. His biggest item is that he seems to see events in his life as blessing him or punishing him.

Now, I told him today that we have different interperations of the Cain and Abel story and he pressed me. I told him "Not right Now." Now, my question is if I should discuss it or not with him?

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2005-09-14 06:22pm

well thats difficult to say without knowing the respective opinions...

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2005-09-14 06:30pm

It sounds liek my Co-Worker takes a traditional view of Cain and Abel, basically God had the right to punish Cain over murdering his brother.

I do not support Murder but my problem is that I see the whole thing as a setup by God.

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Basically, Cain was created as a tiller yet God played favorites and if he is all knowing, he should have know exactly what would happen.

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2005-09-14 07:15pm

Don't bother. He'll just mumble something about free will and ignore any protests about what omniscense really means.

The Guid · Post by **The Guid** » 2005-09-15 05:47am

And more importantly, what will argument bring in terms of benefit?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2005-09-15 01:24pm

If he's asking you, give it to him with both barrels. As a general rule of thumb Atheists/Agnostics and assorted moderates and free-thinkers shouldn't stoop to the level of proselytization and "wearing your religion on your sleave" so to speak. But more than a few of our current problems can be traced the superstitious folk doing exactly that totally unopposed. While it would be pretty crass for me to go to work muttering "Anyone who believes in God is a fool." there are greyer scenarios.

Coworker: "Isn't God great?"
Me: "No. There is no god."

Now, was that an appropriate response? Politically correct? Probably not, but defensible? I think so. While your first instinct may be to candy-coat it by going. "I don't believe in God." or some other variation of moderate diplomacy, consider what they said. They didn't state their belief as a belief. They didn't go "I believe in God." they stated their own subjective opinion as fact. As far as I'm concerned when they do that the gloves are off and I can do the same. There's a difference between being on the defensive and being a doormat.

Now, these are just examples of course- and your opinions and results may very. Simply put, if he's asking you- give it to him.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-09-15 02:06pm

Kitsune wrote: Basically, Cain was created as a tiller yet God played favorites and if he is all knowing, he should have know exactly what would happen.

Odd the interpretation we learned (and had a test including that today) was that Cain bought random stock, while Abel bought from his very best animals & produce (his offering was detailed leading to the possibility that Cain may have actually given from his worst animals).

What other interpretation are you planning to discuss with you co-worker

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2005-09-15 05:49pm

DEATH wrote:
Kitsune wrote: Basically, Cain was created as a tiller yet God played favorites and if he is all knowing, he should have know exactly what would happen.
Odd the interpretation we learned (and had a test including that today) was that Cain bought random stock, while Abel bought from his very best animals & produce (his offering was detailed leading to the possibility that Cain may have actually given from his worst animals).

What other interpretation are you planning to discuss with you co-worker

Where is this supported by the bible:
4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 4:2
And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-09-16 12:02am

Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

No details, only mentions that he bought fruit, no mention of quantity or quality.

nd Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof

He sacrificed the very best of his stock, unlike Cain who just gave randomly, possibly from the pickings.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-09-16 12:03am

I think that was the lines, we didn't learn the Bible in english.

defanatic · Post by **defanatic** » 2005-09-16 01:29am

Well, he gave the firstborn of his stock...
Besides, does the christian God we have all come to love actually require any sacrifice (I've been to a church a couple of times, and must have missed that).

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2005-09-16 03:22pm

DEATH wrote:
Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
No details, only mentions that he bought fruit, no mention of quantity or quality.

nd Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof
He sacrificed the very best of his stock, unlike Cain who just gave randomly, possibly from the pickings.

The problem is that this all assumption on your part.......the Bible does not say that.
I can make all sort of assumptions, it does not make them correct.

The situation is that the writers of teh bible are descended for herders not farmers who till the land so it is their opinions that they are better than tillers.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-09-16 03:32pm

I never claimed this, It's just the most commonly accepted claim (that we were taught and that I used in yesterdays test).
It's hard to find anything more open to interpretation than the bible.

, I could claim that the reason was that only blood sacrifices count and that all vegetables are an abomination before the lord, but I don't dislike brussel sprouts that much

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-16 03:44pm

defanatic wrote:Well, he gave the firstborn of his stock...
Besides, does the christian God we have all come to love actually require any sacrifice (I've been to a church a couple of times, and must have missed that).

The Christian God, in most theologies, requires no sacrifice because Jesus' crucifixion was the be-all and end-all of sacrifice. After that point, why bother? That's a gross simplification, of course, but in any case...

Judaism, oddly enough, still has sacrifice enshrined in its texts; however, sacrifice is not performed due to the Temple's destruction, as it was *the* place to sacrifice. Without the Temple, sacrifices would not be sanctioned/sanctified; it'd be just killing an animal.

Though if .303, Faqa or Ace know differently upon the latter, feel free to correct me...

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2005-09-16 06:50pm

DEATH wrote:I never claimed this, It's just the most commonly accepted claim (that we were taught and that I used in yesterdays test).
It's hard to find anything more open to interpretation than the bible.

, I could claim that the reason was that only blood sacrifices count and that all vegetables are an abomination before the lord, but I don't dislike brussel sprouts that much

That is kind of the point, I don't see the statement where Cain was treated fairly. You can disagree and so can he but the point was if I shoudl bring it up which I think I will not unless he does again.