My mother is concerned with my new beliefs...

Magnetic · Post by **Magnetic** » 2005-09-12 12:01pm

Thanks to all the many posts regarding my plight. I appreciate what you all have offered.

kaikatsu wrote:Aw man, Magnetic. I know EXACTLY what you're going through. I'm in much the same situation myself.

The thing I've found is that logical arguments don't really WORK in situations like that. I might be able to better help you by asking, what, exactly, -do- you believe? You might not be a YEC, but would you consider yourself an athiest, etc? That can have a big impact on how you deal with your family.

kaikatsu, Greymalkin, and others who may be interested, to be honest, I'm not sure where I stand at this point. However, I beleive that if there is a truly loving God, it will be one that isn't in it just for the worship of the masses. It wouldn't be a God as depicted in the Old Testiment, one where if you don't believe, or worship other gods, you will be destroyed. That kind of God, and a God of unconditional love are incongruent.

I also believe that, under the literal interpretation of the right wing of the Christian religion, the "Great Commission" (go into all the world and preach the gospel...) was fatally flawed from the beginning and would be ineffective for centuries and even well into the following millenium, since the idea that "salvation through knowledge of Jesus" as being the only way to Heaven causes, by default, billions who lived in a far off land (from the Mediterranean Sea area) to eternal punishment, solely because they were unfortunate enough, having been born too far away to be reached.

What I would consider to be the REAL "Good News", would be that such an act (Jesus's death on the cross to pay for sins) was for all people, regardless of their way of life. A real gift is one that isn't asked for.

I believe that most of what's in the OT are stories of the Jewish people, much like stories that people write today. They relayed their sense of culture, odd as it may be, but shouldn't be taken as the way all people should live their lives.

I could go on, but I digress.

One funny note to this topic. My grandfather on my mom's side is even more dogmatic than my mom. In fact, he has openly told her that she and my dad are going to Hell because they don't pay their tithes, and because they spend all their money on their cats (they had a 'cat show' hobby). So, I guess my mom is tame, by comparison.

Rahvin · Post by **Rahvin** » 2005-09-12 01:56pm

One funny note to this topic. My grandfather on my mom's side is even more dogmatic than my mom. In fact, he has openly told her that she and my dad are going to Hell because they don't pay their tithes, and because they spend all their money on their cats (they had a 'cat show' hobby). So, I guess my mom is tame, by comparison.

Now that I can relate with.

My late grandfather (the principle of a Christian private school), in his later years, used to berate my cousins and me for playing "Devil's Games." Namely, DnD and Magic: The Gathering. When we responded that they had nothing to do with Satan, he would respond with "well, they aren't Chrstian games!" I suppose he simply believed his nightly Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune to be somehow divinely inspired

I actually stopped talking to him when he told my cousins and their family (who did basically everything for him, keeping up his house, driving him around, etc, at great hardship to themselves) that they were all going to Hell. I never spoe to him again until the day he died. I still regret that (he was my grandfather, and I loved him when he wasn't condemning good people to eternal suffering).

I wouldn't go out of your way to tell your grandfather about your new beliefs unless you really want to be screamed at and condemned to Hell a few times. If he's anything like my grandfather was, there's no chance he'll be understanding about it. He'll just disown you.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-12 06:21pm

Rahvin wrote:My late grandfather (the principle of a Christian private school), in his later years, used to berate my cousins and me for playing "Devil's Games." Namely, DnD and Magic: The Gathering.

Fundies of all ages say those are satanic. How old is Jack Chick?

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2005-09-13 05:13pm

Interesting topic Magnetic.

The big battles I have to fight are yet to come. I've already confronted my mom and dad with the change in my outlook. My dad is closest in his new belief systems of all of my family, IE he believes in a God, and he believes, oddly, in the Bible as a literal truth. But he also believes that God is not a nice, forgiving, good God, and he's pretty sure he's going to Hell for it. Mom is just disappointed in both of us...we had strange ideas, she says. I tried to explain our position to her, but even though she had the Bible read to her many times as a child, she doesn't remember many of the passages. (She often says that she doesn't ever remember seeing anything about homosexuality in the Bible, yet you'd have to be blind not to find it)

The real problem is the grandparents. Stark's right, unfortunately, trying to talk sense into them is about as likely to succeed as stacking marbles in a corner, the floor made of ice. My grandmother on one side, and my granddad on the other side are both strongly religious (they deserve each other, really). Both have tried converting others. I think my grandmother has pretty much given up on me, but my grandfather on the other side seems to test the water every few times I see him. Last time I saw him he was asking me if that college I went to was teaching me that there was no God and all this. At the time, I hadn't been investigating this stuff, and since the school hadn't directly said that, then I answered no. But the knowledge they did impart helped further the questions of the validity of the Bible, so indirectly yes.

It's with him that I'm going to have to defend my ideals. It's not going to be pretty.

Rahvin · Post by **Rahvin** » 2005-09-13 05:27pm

The big battles I have to fight are yet to come. I've already confronted my mom and dad with the change in my outlook. My dad is closest in his new belief systems of all of my family, IE he believes in a God, and he believes, oddly, in the Bible as a literal truth. But he also believes that God is not a nice, forgiving, good God, and he's pretty sure he's going to Hell for it. Mom is just disappointed in both of us...we had strange ideas, she says. I tried to explain our position to her, but even though she had the Bible read to her many times as a child, she doesn't remember many of the passages. (She often says that she doesn't ever remember seeing anything about homosexuality in the Bible, yet you'd have to be blind not to find it)

You know, this is a very common issue with Christianity. Ten years ago, if you had told me that the Bible said something about homosexuality, I wouldn't have believed you.

Churches today (most of the them, anyway) don't tend to talk about the "bad" parts. They focus entirely on the sugar-coated nicey parts and the whole forgiveness part. That's not so bad - Christianity has some good stuff in there along with the bad. But my mother would likely respond exactly as yours did. The problem is the unquestioning attitude this engenders. I didn't even think about how the things I was learning in school contradicted the Biblical account of events until after High School.

Very few Christians have actually read the Bible and tried to comprehend it. They don't realize how convoluted and self-contradictory the Bible is. They act surprised when some monster rises to power and turns Christianity into an excuse for the most horrible acts of evil and depravity.

Perhaps if education stressed critical thinking more we wouldn't have such a problem with idiotic fundies. We really need to teach kids at an early age to question what they are fed, whether it's from school or religion, and go where the evidence leads them.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-09-13 05:27pm

The worst bit for me right now is that my mother told the entire family about how I felt on the matter, so any time we go to meet them, I get a bloody argument. They tell me how terrible and immoral of a person I am, and I explain to them why they're a bunch of fucking morons. Of course, they dismiss absolutely anything I say that disagrees with the bible, so it's bloody useless, but I really wish that they could at least leave me the fuck alone.

The absolute worst part is that my mother always accuses ME of starting this shit...

Rahvin · Post by **Rahvin** » 2005-09-13 05:29pm

The absolute worst part is that my mother always accuses ME of starting this shit...

Well, of course! You're the dirty heathen, you must have started it!

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-09-13 05:41pm

The problem only gets worse when they don't understand why I don't want to be around them. Of course, my mom tries to be as bitchy about it as she can, trying to make me feel left out at every opportunity by asking me to lead the prayer, or to go to church and all that... it's bloody annoying. And of course, all of it's my fault.

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2005-09-13 05:53pm

Zero132132 wrote:f course, they dismiss absolutely anything I say that disagrees with the bible, so it's bloody useless

You should likewise dismiss absolutely anything that disagrees with science. Maybe then they will start to realize why the disagreement is irreconcilable.

Rahvin · Post by **Rahvin** » 2005-09-13 06:09pm

The problem only gets worse when they don't understand why I don't want to be around them. Of course, my mom tries to be as bitchy about it as she can, trying to make me feel left out at every opportunity by asking me to lead the prayer, or to go to church and all that... it's bloody annoying. And of course, all of it's my fault.

Have you had a direct conversation about her behavior yet? Told her that you don't appreciate the way she treats you and her lack of respect for your beliefs?

I know it might not help at all (so many fundies want to "save the souls" of the disillusioned and deconverted), but if you haven't tried yet, I would. Sometimes common decency can win in the end. Sometimes.

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2005-09-13 06:29pm

Rahvin wrote:Have you had a direct conversation about her behavior yet? Told her that you don't appreciate the way she treats you and her lack of respect for your beliefs?

I know it might not help at all (so many fundies want to "save the souls" of the disillusioned and deconverted), but if you haven't tried yet, I would. Sometimes common decency can win in the end. Sometimes.

This is good advice, but it may not work. Many people would scoff at the idea of "respecting the beliefs of heathens." If they do refuse to respect your beliefs, feel free to mercilessly rip their beliefs to shreds whenever they deride you. And if they don't like it? Simply remind them that they didn't respect your beliefs either.

Hopefully they will simply stop bringing up the subject after that.

Rahvin · Post by **Rahvin** » 2005-09-13 06:40pm

his is good advice, but it may not work. Many people would scoff at the idea of "respecting the beliefs of heathens." If they do refuse to respect your beliefs, feel free to mercilessly rip their beliefs to shreds whenever they deride you. And if they don't like it? Simply remind them that they didn't respect your beliefs either.

Hopefully they will simply stop bringing up the subject after that.

You could also try using "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Fight fire with fire, and all that.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-09-13 06:45pm

I don't want to derail this thread. Instead of offering me solutions to my wacky little issues, shouldn't we be trying to find a way for Magnetic to patch things up with his mother?

I actually tried to offer a solution earlier. It's simple to say that the basis of christianity is belief in salvation, and the creation myth has precious little to do with all of that. That'd be my suggestion.

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2005-09-13 06:54pm

Rahvin wrote:You could also try using "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The predictable response to this is: "If I turned away from God, I'd want someone to snap me out of it."

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-09-13 07:10pm

Guys, this isn't about belief. It's not a quiet rational debate over a latte. You're contradicting the images parents have of their family, you're rocking the boat. That is all. You can't 'debate' them, because they're adults, they're largely ignorant (no offence), and they're never going to listen to YOU. They see it as a threat to the basic nature of their family: it's like challenging their self-image - its a visceral response.

If you want to get along without compromising your beliefs, just encourage them to ignore it. It doesn't have to be an issue (unless you're living with your parents, in which case all the above 'emotional threats' are basically unstoppable). Mature adults can get past this - your problem is they're not going to want to. Remember (and remind them) that it's THEM that make a huge issue out of it, etc. However, look at your parents other relationships. Guess what happens when they don't have relationships with ANYONE that doesn't share their beliefs, and you announce YOU don't share their beliefs? In this case, your parents are simply bigots, and there's very little you can do aside from reducing impact and emphasising the things you DO share.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-09-13 07:21pm

I'm 17, and any reasonable future plans require me to stay here until I'm out of high school...

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-09-13 07:55pm

See, that sucks. I think it's very difficult to have a proper adult relationship with parents while you live in their house, if only because of the schoolyard attitude most parents have towards 'living in their house'. I still think avoiding the issue (since you're certainly never going to 'convert' your parents) and emphasize the common ground is the best attitude to take, since that should bring the level of conflict down.

It's worth remembering that if you shared their beliefs 100%, you'd still argue about SOMETHING. Towing the line will NOT make your family life perfect. I moved out of my parents place because of some of their (non-religious) attitudes (I'm not very good at compromise

) but I have a great relationship with them now.

Magnetic · Post by **Magnetic** » 2005-09-14 11:36am

Zero132132 wrote:I don't want to derail this thread. Instead of offering me solutions to my wacky little issues, shouldn't we be trying to find a way for Magnetic to patch things up with his mother?

I actually tried to offer a solution earlier. It's simple to say that the basis of christianity is belief in salvation, and the creation myth has precious little to do with all of that. That'd be my suggestion.

I appreciate your post. I don't mind if others make posts surrounding this idea.

However, since I still consider myself in the 'christian' religion, I just let her know that, and that 'my soul isn't in trouble'. I'd rather not have this explode into constant fighting about it. If I want to discuss my new beliefs with a family member, I'll just go over to my brother's house.

Anyway, thanks! Please continue the discussion.

defanatic · Post by **defanatic** » 2005-09-14 11:20pm

Parents are evil...

If you feel that your parents have too much of a school yard attitude, start paying rent. If they say no, force the money into their hands and run!

Magnetic · Post by **Magnetic** » 2005-09-15 10:34am

defanatic wrote:Parents are evil...

If you feel that your parents have too much of a school yard attitude, start paying rent. If they say no, force the money into their hands and run!

Uh, . . . .if this was posted directly towards me, . . . . . I'm 37, married, and own my house.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-09-15 10:39am

Magnetic wrote:I appreciate your post. I don't mind if others make posts surrounding this idea.

However, since I still consider myself in the 'christian' religion, I just let her know that, and that 'my soul isn't in trouble'. I'd rather not have this explode into constant fighting about it. If I want to discuss my new beliefs with a family member, I'll just go over to my brother's house.

Anyway, thanks! Please continue the discussion.

This will probably be my last post for a little bit since I'm too busy, but I thought I'd comment on your plight: your parents will never accept any changes in your personality from what they thought you were at 16. But rather than argue about how legitimate your beliefs are compared to those of your parents, I would suggest four simple words: "NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS."

Seriously, your parents wouldn't ask you what sexual positions you prefer with your wife, so what business is it of theirs how you choose to relate to God? Instead of trying to argue with them, simply defuse the argument by pointing out that it's a private matter and not up for discussion.

Just a suggestion.

Magnetic · Post by **Magnetic** » 2005-09-15 11:30am

Darth Wong wrote:
Magnetic wrote:I appreciate your post. I don't mind if others make posts surrounding this idea.

However, since I still consider myself in the 'christian' religion, I just let her know that, and that 'my soul isn't in trouble'. I'd rather not have this explode into constant fighting about it. If I want to discuss my new beliefs with a family member, I'll just go over to my brother's house.

Anyway, thanks! Please continue the discussion.
This will probably be my last post for a little bit since I'm too busy, but I thought I'd comment on your plight: your parents will never accept any changes in your personality from what they thought you were at 16. But rather than argue about how legitimate your beliefs are compared to those of your parents, I would suggest four simple words: "NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS."

Seriously, your parents wouldn't ask you what sexual positions you prefer with your wife, so what business is it of theirs how you choose to relate to God? Instead of trying to argue with them, simply defuse the argument by pointing out that it's a private matter and not up for discussion.

Just a suggestion.

A good suggestion it is.

Been wondering why there hasn't been many posts from you lately. I guess we all have our busy times.

Blessings!

R. U. Serious · Post by **R. U. Serious** » 2005-09-15 02:22pm

I agree that it is best to not discuss this subject with your parents. Learn to be like a politician: be vague and friendly and smile. Soon things will be back to normal. ANd you'll need those skills anyhow in the future...

As for the ark thing on ararat: It was exposed as a hoax:
http://www.skeptic.com/oldsite/02.3.lip ... -hoax.html