Palpatine needed an external threat to consolidate his rule

[Gunhead]

I got this funny thought while back and thought I'd get your input.

Now in the prequels Palpatine creates the droid army to be the enemy, so he can gain control over the senate. In ROTS he deactivates the droids, thus ending the war. Here he hits a snag. "Since the enemy is gone, what I'm going to use as the big bad wolf, so the senate will eat out of my hand while I consolidate power and regroup my armies?". Palpy is miffed. "Dang, I knew I missed something."
And lo and behold! Here comes the rebel alliance. I mean, Palpy must have been on his fucking knees going "Thank you dark side, thank you!"
I mean it's fucking god sent. Now he can go "Oo, oo. Look at them evil rebels. I must remain in control so we can "win the war against terrorism".
Senate goes "Oh yes Palpy, save us from the eevil rebels."

The whole empire is based on the idea that there are enemies threatening the empire. Without an external threat, it would have been hard for Palpy to keep the senate distracted long enough that he could be rid of them.
After all, he didn't dissolve the senate until the 1st DS was complete.
The rebels are a perfect way to keep the senators at each others throats for a couple of reasons. 1) Palpatine is in power. All the little weasels will try to suck up to him by catching "rebels". 2) Those rebels are any and all who you can pin the rebel tag on, because once it sticks, it doesn't come off. This causes dissent amongst politicians, making it unlikely they'll unite against Palpy.

What I don't know would this sort of scenario fit the official timeline.
I mean, if you really start creating conspiracy theories based on this. Palpy could have allowed the rebel alliance to form, so he could crush it later in a grandiose show of power.
"Everything that has transpired, has done so according to my desire"
Nah... that's too Machiavellian. Even for me.
On the whole I think this is a very Palpatinish plot.

Comments etc. are welcome.

-Gunhead

[Lord Pounder]

There is one problem. Palpatine was eletcted Chancelor or Ruler for life, something like, that just after the Seppies where defeated. The senate had already handed him their few remaining powers, he didn't need any more excuses.

[Gunhead]

There is one problem. Palpatine was eletcted Chancelor or Ruler for life, something like, that just after the Seppies where defeated. The senate had already handed him their few remaining powers, he didn't need any more excuses.

If this would be the case. Why wait years before disbading the senate? In New Hope, admiral what's his name was clearly surprised when Tarkin informed them that the emperor has dissolved the counsil. Also, who's that guy raised his concern to Vader that arresting Leia could raise sympathy for the rebels in the senate.

-Gunhead

[Noble Ire]

There is one problem. Palpatine was eletcted Chancelor or Ruler for life, something like, that just after the Seppies where defeated. The senate had already handed him their few remaining powers, he didn't need any more excuses.

Palpatine still needed the Senate to carry out his word and legislate more minor issues until he could get his system of govenors and Moffs in place. To alienate them too soon would have been risky, far better to wait until you have almost completely replaced the senators with your lackies, or better yet, dissolved it (to do this early on would have caused considerable unrest, but two decades later, everyone was either too afraid or too propagandized to do anything about it.)

Gunhead, your plans seems quite possible, although I think that the Rebellion's existance perhaps served more to justify the continued build up of military strength than directly reinforce his postion and do away with the vestiges of the Old Republic (his military power would allow him to do that any way.)

[Lord Revan]

Since while the Senate has almost no political power, the Senator still reflect the opinion of sectors they repesent, so more sympathy for the Rebels in senate could mean more sympathy for the Rebels in sectorial goverments. Also Palpatine needed the disguise of Senatorial rule until he enough forces that he belived he could control the Empire.

[Lord Pounder]

There is one problem. Palpatine was eletcted Chancelor or Ruler for life, something like, that just after the Seppies where defeated. The senate had already handed him their few remaining powers, he didn't need any more excuses.

If this would be the case. Why wait years before disbading the senate? In New Hope, admiral what's his name was clearly surprised when Tarkin informed them that the emperor has dissolved the counsil. Also, who's that guy raised his concern to Vader that arresting Leia could raise sympathy for the rebels in the senate.

-Gunhead

He needed to keep the illusion of democracy to keep the systems in line, once the Imperial Fleet was strengthened and the DS was complete he didn't care, he can destroy what he can't rule.

[NeoGoomba]

He needed to keep the illusion of democracy to keep the systems in line, once the Imperial Fleet was strengthened and the DS was complete he didn't care, he can destroy what he can't rule.

And I'm sure he didn't want to seem to be a liar to the people. "I love democracy" was practically how he accepted his emergency powers.

The Empire stayed popular in the Core Worlds, did it not? Was the Rebellion then spawned because of the (perhaps?) mercantilism-like policy the Empire had in the Rim regions? Did that signal the initial cries of rebellion and the political figures with both the bruised egos (Mon Mothma, Bel Iblis) and truly concerned (Bail Organa) using those cries to consolidate the Rebellion?

[Drooling Iguana]

He needed to keep the illusion of democracy to keep the systems in line, once the Imperial Fleet was strengthened and the DS was complete he didn't care, he can destroy what he can't rule.

And I'm sure he didn't want to seem to be a liar to the people. "I love democracy" was practically how he accepted his emergency powers.

The Empire stayed popular in the Core Worlds, did it not? Was the Rebellion then spawned because of the (perhaps?) mercantilism-like policy the Empire had in the Rim regions? Did that signal the initial cries of rebellion and the political figures with both the bruised egos (Mon Mothma, Bel Iblis) and truly concerned (Bail Organa) using those cries to consolidate the Rebellion?

Alderaan was a Core World.

[Knife]

Wasn't there a line in Palpy's final speech in ROTS something about following up and taking out the last little bit of the separtists?

Anyway, I'm sure that even if it wasn't, Palpatine could have had years of clear sailing off of the Clone Wars. A strong central military so there would no longer be need to hustle and scrap an army together after a war starts or perhaps with a strong central military, some of the atrocities of the Clone Wars wouldn't have happened. Or some such.

I'm pretty sure, though, that you're right about the Alliance. Something to blame the terrors of his final bits of change from the old Republic to the New Order. Terroists hiding in the populace, well we need a Deathstar to maintain order on those planets then.

[Noble Ire]

Alderaan was a Core World.

IIRC so was Chandrilla.

[NeoGoomba]

Alderaan was a Core World.

IIRC so was Chandrilla.

Okay, theres two examples of Core Worlds that were anti-Imperial. Any others?

[Lord Pounder]

Camass(sp?) untill Palpatine's private army performed a mini BDZ on it for one.

[Lord Revan]

Corellia also wasn't compleatly satisfied with Palpatines beheviour (even if Garm Bel Iblis wasn't present in delegation of 2000 in person, his close friend senator Fang Zar was which meant that for all intents and purposes so was Bel Iblis. Also Corellia was one singers of the treaty of Corellia (not that should a real suprise) which formed the Rebel Alliance) and Corellia one most important Core world (IIRC it's capital planet of Corellian sector) and also has etensive shipyards.

[Lord_Xerxes]

One of the things I really liked about the RotS novel is that it illuminated the delegation of 2000 more and really fleshed out what fans basically inherently knew...That Mon Mothma and others were starting the rebellion. The ignenious thing about that whole petition is that Mothma and Organa didn't pen their names to the list so they couldn't be labeled along with everyone else. They really spent some time working on Padme too. She wasn't so willing to work with them on the basis of the fact that she was married to Anakin and implication aside, he would be really pissed at her. But they managed to charm her over. I find it amusing that Mothma and Organa basically convinced 2000 people to sign their own death warrants and let them take the fall for them while they spent the years working on the foundations of the Alliance.

In the meantime, Palpatine knew the whole thing was happening. There's a scene where he's telling Anakin about it. About how Padme was hosting a diner for the traitors in her apartment, and how Obi-Wan had been seen comming and going from her place and unsual hours. He really started sowing the disent and distrust of her long before Obi stepped off her ship that he stowed away on and Anakin's jealousy got the best of him. So after Anakin hears about all this shit, he goes to her apartment and can sense the multitude of people that were there, including Obi-Wan. And when she realizes that he's there, midday, she's like "What the hell are you doing?" and Anakin responds basically "What am I doing? What are you doing?"

I really enjoyed those extra scenes.

[Jim Raynor]

According to the ROTS ICS, "The Imperial Starfleet will justify its existence in unending war gainst Separatist holdouts, dissident rebels and even, it is rumored, deterring barbarian invaders from outside the galaxy."

So besides the Rebels, Palpatine's other boogeymen were CIS remnants and extragalactic invaders (Yuzzhan Vong?).

[Ghost Rider]

Not too far off. To justify the immense increase in military funding he wanted a boogeyman(Seperatist etc) to get it immediately.

The Senate problem was shown in ANH, at first he didn't have enough governors who were under his control, thus while the Rebels were a nice scapegoat, if they did or didn't exist mattered little to the old man.

So in the end, the military and such not would've come later then eariler if no boogeyman.

[Lord Sabre Ace]

So besides the Rebels, Palpatine's other boogeymen were CIS remnants and extragalactic invaders (Yuzzhan Vong?).

Most likely it does mean the Vong. We learned in KOTOR that they'd had their eyes on the galaxy for 4000 years before the rise of the Empire.

[Lord Pounder]

So besides the Rebels, Palpatine's other boogeymen were CIS remnants and extragalactic invaders (Yuzzhan Vong?).

Most likely it does mean the Vong. We learned in KOTOR that they'd had their eyes on the galaxy for 4000 years before the rise of the Empire.

What level is that, I always thought that games and the information in them was kind of a grey area. According to the NJO itself the Vong on detected the SW Galaxy just before the rise of the Empire, unless you mean to suggest the Vong Overlord had been arround for 4000 years.

[Darth Yoshi]

Game plots are canon, unless contradicted by pretty much anything else.

[Lord Sabre Ace]

So besides the Rebels, Palpatine's other boogeymen were CIS remnants and extragalactic invaders (Yuzzhan Vong?).

Most likely it does mean the Vong. We learned in KOTOR that they'd had their eyes on the galaxy for 4000 years before the rise of the Empire.

What level is that, I always thought that games and the information in them was kind of a grey area. According to the NJO itself the Vong on detected the SW Galaxy just before the rise of the Empire, unless you mean to suggest the Vong Overlord had been arround for 4000 years.

It's one of Canderous' war stories. He and a group of Mandalorians encounter a Vong spaceship in an asteroid field.

[Mark S]

Another excuse for increased military spending is the Jedi, or lack of at that point. Palpatine could have told the people that they needed the troops to keep order and peace in the galaxy now that the Jedi were gone and they needed to be station at everybodies front door to do it.

[Lord Pounder]

Which is contradicted by the NJO boosk themselves. In the later NJO books it says that the YV discovered the GFFA when all seemed lost to them, they where embroiled in Civil War and Shimira had to assassinate the then current Supreme Overlord before the YV started sending in scouts like Nom Anor. This happened some time arround the aftermath of Rogue Planet.

[Drooling Iguana]

So besides the Rebels, Palpatine's other boogeymen were CIS remnants and extragalactic invaders (Yuzzhan Vong?).

Most likely it does mean the Vong. We learned in KOTOR that they'd had their eyes on the galaxy for 4000 years before the rise of the Empire.

What level is that, I always thought that games and the information in them was kind of a grey area. According to the NJO itself the Vong on detected the SW Galaxy just before the rise of the Empire, unless you mean to suggest the Vong Overlord had been arround for 4000 years.

It's KotOR. If it weren't for the fact that they shamelessly rip it off at every opportunity rather than come up with their own plot points, I'd be skeptical about whether or not the developers even saw the Star Wars movies.

[Crown]

I got this funny thought while back and thought I'd get your input.

Now in the prequels Palpatine creates the droid army to be the enemy, so he can gain control over the senate. In ROTS he deactivates the droids, thus ending the war. Here he hits a snag. "Since the enemy is gone, what I'm going to use as the big bad wolf, so the senate will eat out of my hand while I consolidate power and regroup my armies?". Palpy is miffed. "Dang, I knew I missed something."
And lo and behold! Here comes the rebel alliance. I mean, Palpy must have been on his fucking knees going "Thank you dark side, thank you!"
I mean it's fucking god sent. Now he can go "Oo, oo. Look at them evil rebels. I must remain in control so we can "win the war against terrorism".
Senate goes "Oh yes Palpy, save us from the eevil rebels."<snip>
Comments etc. are welcome.

-Gunhead

Your general theory is sound, if you deny the fact that Palpatine had a majority in the Senate by other means (blackmail, kick backs, threat of grevious bodily harm, etc). I don't deny that the Rebel Alliance gave him a few extra cards to play with, but he was more than willing to order convert terror campaigns against his own citizenry and then blame it on someone else anyway, so I don't think they saved his ass in any way, they just made it easier for him (strange as that sounds).

[Gunhead]

I do think Palpy didn't directly have majority of the senate in his pocket. It's impractical due to the sheer number of senators. The senate is divided into parties (or similar groups) IMO, because individual senator needs backing from others to get his motions passed. If Palpy has the leaders of these parties under his control, he can manipulate a large portion of the senate.
As an added bonus, he can appear as the good guy by pointing the finger at the party leaders if things get sour.

Yes, Palpy could have become a dictator by military might, but that would have meant an another war. Palpy didn't want to appear as the bad guy, until he didn't need to give two shits about public opinion. The senate was needed to keep the wheels rolling until Palpy had his governors in place to take control. This happened at the beginning of ANH.

-Gunhead