Is there Free Will in the Wars Universe?

[Stravo]

When one considers the cyclical nature of the Sith/Jedi schism and following wars, the prophecy of the one, the assertion by Obi Wan that there is no such thing as luck and that the Force can control your actions, the observation by many EU Jedi that events that seem to be coincidence are actually the will of the Force, the creation of the Chosen One by the Force and the resulting prophecy can we say that because of the Force there is no free will?

For example Did Anakin truly fall or was his fall set into motion by arcane and complex series of choices by the Force - ie. making sure Qui-Gon finds him at a late age, the slaying of Qui Gon and the institution of Obi Wan as his teacher, the death of his mother, the introduction of Padme, all this leads up to an almost inescapable conclusion that Anakin was destined to fall. The Force WANTED him to fall and slay the Jedi and the Sith and put everything back in balance.

Or

Is there choice in the Wars universe. Is the power of the Force extremely overplayed, are the Jedi merely looking at events through their own limited world view so that luck is indeed looked on as the Will of the Force instead of just sheer chance and random events. By saying that the Force controls all in some way are we playing into the Jedi mindset and not being an impartial observer?

[The Grim Squeaker]

Going by the Kotor games there is none, Krea was trying to kill the force just to make it stop meddling and influincing life, but the Exile was chosen by the force to stop her and fulfill whtaever else he's supposed to do.
So if we follow the "Living force" theory then no.

[Lord Revan]

To a any meaningfull answer to that question, We'd first need propper answer to what is the Force.

[Civil War Man]

Luke: "So it can control your actions?"
Obi-Wan: "Yes, but it can also obey your commands."

I think the best explanation of whether or not there is free will in Star Wars can be summed up by Vir Cotto in Babylon 5 when Londo asks him whether he believes in fate.

The short explanation: The Force is pushing everyone in multiple directions. Sometimes a person needs to fight the current, and sometimes they should simply go with the flow. Unfortunately, the currents that need to be fought look exactly like the ones that need to be accepted.

Examples: Anakin tried to fight every vision he had. In Padme's case, his fighting the current caused the vision. In his mother's case, he simply arrived too late to do anything about it.

Palpatine, on the other hand, always went with the flow. Every action he did was based in part or in whole on his visions of the future. We all know how well that line of action worked for him in ROTJ.

[Noble Ire]

I personally believe that while the Force may have some psudo-sentient characteristics about it's existance, it doesn't directly set a path for the organisms of the universe to follow, it just provides some of the ability to harness its power and use it to mainatin order (or chaos, as the Dark Side would wish.) The people of the SW universe have free will, even if the Force may try and bend some towards it's own means from time to time. The old Jedi belief that the Force sets all things in motion may simply stem from their own ability to predict the future (with varying degrees of accuracy.)

[The Grim Squeaker]

Examples: Anakin tried to fight every vision he had. In Padme's case, his fighting the current caused the vision. In his mother's case, he simply arrived too late to do anything about it.

Palpatine, on the other hand, always went with the flow. Every action he did was based in part or in whole on his visions of the future. We all know how well that line of action worked for him in ROTJ.

It worked even better for Obi-Wan, this and Palpatine's case seem to suuport the force wanting to balance itself but that the Dark side is not equal to the light, but does exist due to sentient nature with the full force keeping it in check and preventing the light side from becoming hedonistic and weak and thus feeding the DS. (As the republic and senate were)

[NeoGoomba]

As Dream said, "Sometimes you choose your actions, sometimes your actions are chosen for you, and sometimes you have no choice at all."

I think so long as the living Force is concerned, so long as you weren't involved in the "great events" that the Force brought about, you were free. For example, Palpatine may have been compelled to do what he did, but his servants may not, as they were replaceable as far as the Force was concerned.

Ahh, who am I kidding, I'm no metaphysicst

[Darth Fanboy]

I think the Force only influences those that have a degree of capability in using it, such as the Jedi.

EDIT: Sorry, I must clarify. By the above statement, I mean that normal beings don't have their actions influenced as much if at all by it.

[Knife]

Is there choice in the Wars universe. Is the power of the Force extremely overplayed, are the Jedi merely looking at events through their own limited world view so that luck is indeed looked on as the Will of the Force instead of just sheer chance and random events. By saying that the Force controls all in some way are we playing into the Jedi mindset and not being an impartial observer?

I think there is truth in this statment. It would seem that the Force is capable of balancing itself, but in doing so it doesn't mean that the Force is taking into account all the various little factors while it does it.

I would go so far as to say that the Force is the agent of change in the SW universe and whether you call it a 'god' or 'fate' it has the same function. When large adjustments need to be made, it sets up a mechinism to do it.

And while it needs to be done occasionally, it doesn't necessarily take notice of the individual lives that are affected. Billions, if not trillions died durring the two civil wars fought to balance out the 'Force'. Palpatine, the agent of change, orcastrated two wars and destroyed multiple plantets to wipe away the old and decadent culture that allowed the imbalance. Anakin, who was more of a presure relief valve than anything, was there to 'contain' the 'agent of change' so it would be balanced and not go too far to the other side.

The Force wasn't concerned with the individual lives destroyed to do this, and if it was it did it anyways, but then again, how many lives would have been lost if the Republic decayed and split into fiefdoms or if the Galactic Empire went to far in wiping out the 'old ways' and killed more than if the Republic split?

The Jedi, I believe, are to caught up in the small view when in fact the Force is looking at the big view.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

When one considers the cyclical nature of the Sith/Jedi schism and following wars, the prophecy of the one, the assertion by Obi Wan that there is no such thing as luck and that the Force can control your actions, the observation by many EU Jedi that events that seem to be coincidence are actually the will of the Force, the creation of the Chosen One by the Force and the resulting prophecy can we say that because of the Force there is no free will?
Is there choice in the Wars universe. Is the power of the Force extremely overplayed, are the Jedi merely looking at events through their own limited world view so that luck is indeed looked on as the Will of the Force instead of just sheer chance and random events. By saying that the Force controls all in some way are we playing into the Jedi mindset and not being an impartial observer?

I think the distinction is meaningless. It is like the real world - is everything down to the last quark really predestined (Fate) or is everything coincidence and probability? There is really no way to tell when you are trapped within the universe itself and it all becomes meaningless philosophy. Here, we just replace "Fate" with "Force".

Personally, however, AFAIK, the Jedi probably figure the Force's expanse is the entire universe. If that's so, it is IMO highly arrogant of them to think the Force (if it even has a sentience) would care about the events of a single weeny galaxy, whether it can or not.

As an analogy, suppose you can obtain data on the status of any cell in your body and control it directly. Even with that power, would you really micromanage a single cell getting infected? Doubt it. Personally, I won't. I got better things to do with my consciousness than to micromanage one cell.

Jedi often say that the Force directs their lightsaber defences, but personally I think it is their subconscious processing data from the Force field, like it handles eyesight and hearing. Never mind the ludicriousness of the Force even caring about the outcome of a single man's swordfight - especially if it was a practice.

Consider: There are actually different styles in Jedi swordfighting - Ataro, Vaapad, and all that shit. Mathematically, if your blade is in Position A, there is a single geometrically optimum solution to bring it into an intercept with incoming projectile (or blade) B. Your counter in turn has a mathematical precision.

Despite this, an Ataro player's solution to a particular attack (perhaps a hard leap up, backflip and counter-strike) will be very different from a Soresu player (probably a sweep parry combined with a small body shuffle), even if they have reasonably similar conditions. Certain styles are superior for certain things (Form 2 being nominally better for saberfights for instance). That makes sense if it is their subconscious directing based on analysis of Force data fused with muscle memory. Not so much sense if it is "God" directing - God should be driving you towards the move, and your hands would just move with geometrical perfection for the perfect block. Idiocies like Form VI (I don't even play with swords and I thought the "Form 6" practitioners were shoddy on my rewatch of AOTC) should not happen.

I also like Obi-Wan's comment about the Will of the Force in the ROTS novelization - basically, they don't understand shit about the Force, so anything that looks like "Will" might very well be as natural as gravity.

[Kurgan]

a maverick radar guides fate

[dworkin]

No. Because Palpy takes a dive into the Bottomless Pit(TM).

Didn't see that one coming didya! Didya! Ya bastard!

So, the force is not prophetic but predictive. Palpy saw a predicted future in which he confronts Luke at a moment of greatest stress and Luke turns and joins team Sith.

But, this didn't happen. Someone didn't do what the force said it would. Sounds like free will to me.

The force seems to be used to predict future events in much the same way we can predict the weather. As you read barometers and air currents and then run a simulation to predict the weather so a force user can read the shifting patterns of the force to predict future events. A skilled user is better than a rube.

But it's not always a perfect prediction as Luke's (ESB) and Palpy's (ROTJ) show. Free will can exist in such circumstances.

Also both Jedi and Sith have shown that they can 'predict' events differently. 'Surely you see this!' is Qui-Gon's plee to the Jedi council. The Jedi Council clearly did not see this future for Anakin.

The force is also used to influence and guide events by a strong force user. It is literally a physical character shield! Unlikely events or uncanny coincidences occur regulary round them. An entity in Star Wars can truly be said to lead a 'charmed life'. Whether a recognised force user or not, someone can be 'strong in the force' and survive almost impossiable odds at times.

So the force can make predictions and skew probability but there's still lots of room for free will.

[dworkin]

On to Stravo's questions:

When one considers the cyclical nature of the Sith/Jedi schism and following wars, the prophecy of the one, the assertion by Obi Wan that there is no such thing as luck and that the Force can control your actions, the observation by many EU Jedi that events that seem to be coincidence are actually the will of the Force, the creation of the Chosen One by the Force and the resulting prophecy can we say that because of the Force there is no free will?

There is room for free will but that doesn't prevent Star Wars running under some very odd rules indeed. There seems to be a 'rule of morality', everyone is either 'good' or 'bad' with no true middle ground. People can have a 'destiny' in that they frequently skew probabilities so that interesting things happen to them. Anakin should of remained on Tattooine tinkering with droids. Instead the one Jedi who'ld sponser him into the Order lands outside his village and just happens to need his help and thus attract the Jedi's notice. All chance events but still at the whacky end of the bell curve.

For example Did Anakin truly fall or was his fall set into motion by arcane and complex series of choices by the Force - ie. making sure Qui-Gon finds him at a late age, the slaying of Qui Gon and the institution of Obi Wan as his teacher, the death of his mother, the introduction of Padme, all this leads up to an almost inescapable conclusion that Anakin was destined to fall. The Force WANTED him to fall and slay the Jedi and the Sith and put everything back in balance.

Anakin is certainly in the middle of a shitstorm of skewed possiabilities, but his choices to those uncanny events are still his own. Only with the benefit of hindsight could you call it 'inevitable'.
Qui-Gon was most likely 'fated' to tutor and mentor Anakin. Qui-Gon's actions in TPM show this is what he 'saw'. However Qui-Gon confronted another powerful force user and ended up on the bad side of bell curve.
It is Yoda's poor judgement to assign Obi-Wan as well as Obi-Wan's desire to carry out the wishes of Qui-Gon that results in Anakin's unusual training.
At each point one can infer that the individuals are acting with free will and that the force is manipulating probability so that uncanny coincidences occur lots.


Or

Is there choice in the Wars universe. Is the power of the Force extremely overplayed, are the Jedi merely looking at events through their own limited world view so that luck is indeed looked on as the Will of the Force instead of just sheer chance and random events. By saying that the Force controls all in some way are we playing into the Jedi mindset and not being an impartial observer?

Just as a Jedi can manipulate a roll of a die their attunement to the force allows them to (often subconciuosly) manipulate other events as well. The degree of manipulation is based on their strength and skill. For Obi-Wan, paragon of the Jedi he could be convinced that 'There is no such thing as luck' since it's never happened to him. Obi-Wan is so powerful that events play out the way he wants them to. For impetuous farmboys (both of them), meglomaniacs and hidebound elders chance does come into it because they're not as 'one with the force' as Obi-Wan. Throughout this however the concious choices and desires do matter and make a difference.

[Kurgan]

Free Will Can Only Be Bought with Very Expensive Effects

[Ghost Rider]

You are a fucking idiot.

Lock.