Modern tank vs Mobile Suit, serious calcs included.

[data_link]

Fucking A. These mecha are so big plain old 155 tube artillery could get opening salvo hits without using guided round at twenty klicks.

If the artillery could lead and track the mecha at that range...
However big the target is, there is still the matter of actually HITTING it if it is mobile. And the mecha are pretty mobile.

Hence why they are called Mobile Suits.

[MKSheppard]

Hence why they are called Mobile Suits.

*sound of dozens of ATGMs fired from BMPs slamming into Zaku*

Not anymore

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Hence why they are called Mobile Suits.

*sound of dozens of ATGMs fired from BMPs slamming into Zaku*

Not anymore

Shep, wouldn't the Zaku's motion make it harder to hit an MS? If you're using TOW you still need to keep the damn thing bracketed all the way, and even without jumpjets or dust clouds it's going to be quite challenging for ANY shooter.

Oh wait, that's for tanks and etc. The size of MSes tends to invalidate movement and range. I retract my statement.

[Vympel]

True, but that does not prevent infantry (or Mobile Suits) from being useful tactically.

I never said that. They're simply poor solutions.

,but considering that they literally melted right through the Zaku's arm in less than half a second, I'd say that they are powerful enough to do serious damage to a mere tank

A mountain of assumptions and no numbers non-arguments. You assume that a Zaku's arm is thick and/or strong, when this is what you're trying to prove, and then place another assumption and contend that the armor of a tank is inferior to this, when all the evidence points in the OPPOSITE direction (a tanks armor is FAR thicker).

As Lord Wong pointed out- if you're going to compare the effectivness of real-life equipment to fantasy equipment, you don't compare two fantasy vehicles and then make a non-sequitur and assume what you're trying to prove and say 'since mecha are more advanced than tanks because one mecha can kill another mecha, therefore they win'.

[Vympel]

Shep, wouldn't the Zaku's motion make it harder to hit an MS? If you're using TOW you still need to keep the damn thing bracketed all the way, and even without jumpjets or dust clouds it's going to be quite challenging for ANY shooter.

That's TOW- very old ATGM quite frankly, although it is still quite effective. The Refleks (AT-11 SNIPER-B) on the T-90 is laser guided. You still do need to keep the target bracketed- but at 4,000m out that's quite easy- and Mechas are fucking huge. Massive margin for error as you realized

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Shep, wouldn't the Zaku's motion make it harder to hit an MS? If you're using TOW you still need to keep the damn thing bracketed all the way, and even without jumpjets or dust clouds it's going to be quite challenging for ANY shooter.

That's TOW- very old ATGM quite frankly, although it is still quite effective. The Refleks (AT-11 SNIPER-B) on the T-90 is laser guided. You still do need to keep the target bracketed- but at 4,000m out that's quite easy- and Mechas are fucking huge. Massive margin for error as you realized

Hmmm... I see. And also at longer ranges more movement is needed to throw off the lock. Is the AT-11 a fire and forget system or what?

[Sea Skimmer]

Shep, wouldn't the Zaku's motion make it harder to hit an MS? If you're using TOW you still need to keep the damn thing bracketed all the way, and even without jumpjets or dust clouds it's going to be quite challenging for ANY shooter.

That's TOW- very old ATGM quite frankly, although it is still quite effective. The Refleks (AT-11 SNIPER-B) on the T-90 is laser guided. You still do need to keep the target bracketed- but at 4,000m out that's quite easy- and Mechas are fucking huge. Massive margin for error as you realized

Hmmm... I see. And also at longer ranges more movement is needed to throw off the lock. Is the AT-11 a fire and forget system or what?

Semi active laser

[The Yosemite Bear]

Or the fact that they employ something called "Camouflage" and the crews are trained in the art of "Concealment"

Hell, the mecha heads assume that the tank crews are complete morons
and will forget about something called a "reverse gear" in their tanks.

Well we know that the "Reverse" gear hasn't existed in Sci-Fi since the time of Flash Gordon, it was prettymuch killed off during Star Trek

[data_link]

Hell, the mecha heads assume that the tank crews are complete morons
and will forget about something called a "reverse gear" in their tanks.

Well we know that the "Reverse" gear hasn't existed in Sci-Fi since the time of Flash Gordon, it was prettymuch killed off during Star Trek

Patently untrue. The Zeon tanks in 08th MS Team, ep. 9, used reverse gear. While firing no less. Any more bullshit you'd like to spew forth, Shep?

[Vympel]

Patently untrue. The Zeon tanks in 08th MS Team, ep. 9, used reverse gear. While firing no less. Any more bullshit you'd like to spew forth, Shep?

Not what Shep said.

[MKSheppard]

Not what Shep said.

Yeah I said that Data_Link, et al, seem to conviently forget about Reverse
Gears in the T-90s, and the "shoot-and-scoot" fire doctrine that modern
tank warfare requires.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

(Glances around and sees SKimmer and Vympel hovering around Other Sci-fi forum)

AAAHH!!! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

Oh wait, wrong show.

Anyway... semi active laser guidance... Is LOS still needed? What's the difference in nomenclature between steering the sucka all the way in and illuminating it with a target designator?

[The Yosemite Bear]

I see that People are lumping my Sarcssm into their attempts to flame Mark, and still not addressing the basics of physics that make something they create near impossible.

[Vympel]

[quote="Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Anyway... semi active laser guidance... Is LOS still needed? What's the difference in nomenclature between steering the sucka all the way in and illuminating it with a target designator?[/quote]

A TOW is SACLOS (semi-active command line of sight) as well. Except it's wire guided, and the Refleks is laser guided. Laser guidance is more resistant to countermeasures IIRC. You do need LOS for both. It's just that one guidance method is more effective.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

[quote="Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Anyway... semi active laser guidance... Is LOS still needed? What's the difference in nomenclature between steering the sucka all the way in and illuminating it with a target designator?

A TOW is SACLOS (semi-active command line of sight) as well. Except it's wire guided, and the Refleks is laser guided. Laser guidance is more resistant to countermeasures IIRC. You do need LOS for both. It's just that one guidance method is more effective.[/quote]

I get what you mean. TOW countermeasures include TOW fences to cut the wires. THough the laser targeting could be messed up by inclement weather.

Then what is MCLOS (Manual Command Line Of Sight)?

[Sea Skimmer]

(Glances around and sees SKimmer and Vympel hovering around Other Sci-fi forum)

AAAHH!!! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

Oh wait, wrong show.

Anyway... semi active laser guidance... Is LOS still needed? What's the difference in nomenclature between steering the sucka all the way in and illuminating it with a target designator?

Yes you need LOS

You need illumination for the last phase of the flight generally. Though firing from a tank there's little reason not to lase the whole time, you can't have multiple rounds in the air at once unlike say an Apache with Hellfire's.

Basically you laze the target, and the missile sees the reelected laser light and flies towards it. Accuracy is in the centimeter range.

With a System like TOW it's different. The computer on the launcher knows where the target is based on where you've aimed, and it see's the missile, via tracking a beacon on the back of the missile. It sends corrections to the missile via a wire or radio link to make the two match up.

The problem is you must generally be stationary to fire using the wire link. That's why the AT-6 used a radio link, the Hind that carried it couldn't hover very well and normally made strafing attacks moving near top speed.

With a good wire missile you can fire moving slowly, but never anywhere ear top speed. Otherwise the wire will break or get sucked up into the rotors. The TOW's the AH-56 was to use where to be modified to pay out less wire, thus allowing for diving attacks at 300 odd knots, but the AH-56 got canceled and replaced by AH-64 and the A-10.

[Sea Skimmer]

[quote="Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Anyway... semi active laser guidance... Is LOS still needed? What's the difference in nomenclature between steering the sucka all the way in and illuminating it with a target designator?

A TOW is SACLOS (semi-active command line of sight) as well. Except it's wire guided, and the Refleks is laser guided. Laser guidance is more resistant to countermeasures IIRC. You do need LOS for both. It's just that one guidance method is more effective.

I get what you mean. TOW countermeasures include TOW fences to cut the wires. THough the laser targeting could be messed up by inclement weather.

Then what is MCLOS (Manual Command Line Of Sight)?[/quote]

Yeah. It was the AT-3 Stagger uses amoung others. A guy with a joystick looks through a site and tries to hold the missile over the target.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Yeah. It was the AT-3 Stagger uses amoung others. A guy with a joystick looks through a site and tries to hold the missile over the target.

Well, I pity da foo' who tries to take out an advancing ZSU-23 with trembling hands...

[Sea Skimmer]

Yeah. It was the AT-3 Stagger uses amoung others. A guy with a joystick looks through a site and tries to hold the missile over the target.

Well, I pity da foo' who tries to take out an advancing ZSU-23 with trembling hands...

More likely he yells at the nearby machine gun team that's his anti infantry cover and they kill the thing with a burst of AP ammunition.

[Vympel]

Well, I pity da foo' who tries to take out an advancing ZSU-23 with trembling hands...

Egyptian infantry with Saggers used them to great effect on advancing Israeli armor in 67 IIRC ... they had balls of steel. They were also helped because the Israelis didn't bring their infantry along in the opening stages in their drive to stop the Egyptian advance.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

23mm guns point down. MG nest turns into MG puree.

[Sea Skimmer]

23mm guns point down. MG nest turns into MG puree.

However as it traverses its turret to do so an AK-47 gunner empties a magazine into the side of its turret at point blank, cracking the cooling system and killing the gunner and commander. ZSU is really thin skinned..

BTW, you now approved for HAB

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

23mm guns point down. MG nest turns into MG puree.

However as it traverses its turret to do so an AK-47 gunner empties a magazine into the side of its turret at point blank, cracking the cooling system and killing the gunner and commander. ZSU is really thin skinned..

BTW, you now approved for HAB

Is it THAT thin-skinned? Truly craptastic.
Though ti would still be fun to unload rapid-fire 23mm rounds into a pack of fundie evangelists...

[MKSheppard]

KEM (KINETIC ENERGY MISSILE)

The Kinetic Energy Missile (KEM) is a hit to kill weapon, which uses the energy of direct impact to defeat armour and other targets. Instead of an explosive warhead, the missile relies on hypervelocity 5,000 feet per second speed to blast a penetrator rod through the heavy multi-plate armour. It reaches maximum range in less than five seconds. The system functions successfully even at high oblique angles of penetration.

The system is simple but innovative, in that the missile has no warhead, fuse or onboard sensor and the control mechanism has no moving parts. The system minimises the cost of the expended round. The missile, weighing 80kg, is fitted with four fin stabilisers and has a range of over 4km. The solid rocket motor for the missile has been developed by ATK (Alliant Techsystems) Tactical Systems Company.

[Sea Skimmer]

23mm guns point down. MG nest turns into MG puree.

However as it traverses its turret to do so an AK-47 gunner empties a magazine into the side of its turret at point blank, cracking the cooling system and killing the gunner and commander. ZSU is really thin skinned..

BTW, you now approved for HAB

Is it THAT thin-skinned? Truly craptastic.
Though ti would still be fun to unload rapid-fire 23mm rounds into a pack of fundie evangelists...

14mm max of normal steel, however most is protected by around 10. At close range with any 7.62 weapon could be a threat. At ranges greater then a hundred meters or so it should be okay until 12.7 enters the equation. Go Tunguska for the quad 30's and improved armor, or better yet ZSU-57. 57mm impact HE at several hundred RPM should work well against those thick sloping foreheads they claim can't exist.

My where off topic..