ST/SW Weapons Ranges

[Lord Sabre Ace]

And worldships do have pretty bad manuverability, due to their size. One was unable to get out of the way of a ramming SSD.

The Lusankya. Such a waste

[Lord Sabre Ace]

Actually, there is evidence that the turbolaser's bolt is still under control after it is fired. At Endor, an X-wing is chasing a TIE in a loop, and the shots fired seem to fly straight relative to the looping X-wing, a feat which would require the shot to be accelerated. In the Hoth asteroid belt, there is a scene where one of the brim guns of an ISD fires and a few frames later, the bolt changes course to hit an asteroid.

I don't have the images on me, but since I see them posted every time a "what are turbolasers" debate pops up, someone should be able to provide them.

Lasers can also explode like AAA into energy "flak." See AOTC and ROTJ for examples.

[Wyrm]

Actually, there is evidence that the turbolaser's bolt is still under control after it is fired. At Endor, an X-wing is chasing a TIE in a loop, and the shots fired seem to fly straight relative to the looping X-wing, a feat which would require the shot to be accelerated. In the Hoth asteroid belt, there is a scene where one of the brim guns of an ISD fires and a few frames later, the bolt changes course to hit an asteroid.

And the reason why we don't see TL bolts zig-zagging all over the place is because...?

C'mon, Jogurt! If turbolasers really had this property, the Empire would use it fully to its advantage and make those suckers wobble wildly around to try to boggle the pilots or the automatic projectile avoidance computers. It certainly doesn't happen, because otherwise I would've noticed and thought, "What the FUCK?! Those turbolaser bolts are going all over the place!"

Sure, we might not know the exact properties of these TL bolts, but the Empire and the Rebellion sure as fuck do... and would act accordingly.

[Darth Servo]

Actually, there is evidence that the turbolaser's bolt is still under control after it is fired. At Endor, an X-wing is chasing a TIE in a loop, and the shots fired seem to fly straight relative to the looping X-wing, a feat which would require the shot to be accelerated. In the Hoth asteroid belt, there is a scene where one of the brim guns of an ISD fires and a few frames later, the bolt changes course to hit an asteroid.

And the reason why we don't see TL bolts zig-zagging all over the place is because...?

The controled bolt is not unlimited. Having some control over the direction of the bolt does not mean they can make it do a 360.

[Stormin]

Actually, there is evidence that the turbolaser's bolt is still under control after it is fired. At Endor, an X-wing is chasing a TIE in a loop, and the shots fired seem to fly straight relative to the looping X-wing, a feat which would require the shot to be accelerated. In the Hoth asteroid belt, there is a scene where one of the brim guns of an ISD fires and a few frames later, the bolt changes course to hit an asteroid.

The visible part of the bolt is just a tracking mechanism, there is a .gif showing a scene from ep3 where the visible bolt tracks with the gun while the damage from the shot is already visible at the point the gun was aimed when it was fired.

I am trying to look back through my posts because I might have posted in that thread, but its doubtful. Wish I had saved it :/

[Wyrm]

The controled bolt is not unlimited. Having some control over the direction of the bolt does not mean they can make it do a 360.

You don't see very many examples of a TL bolt turning, even a little wobble. The great majority of the TL bolts seem to go in a straight line. Yet being able to wobble even a little bit after leaving the muzzle seems to be a very useful property that would be exploited like a ten-cent whore. Not only for confusing any TL bolt avoidance hardware and wetware, but being able to bend the bolt late would turn some misses into hits. So why not bend after any moving target?

Since there are only a few examples of bending out of the bazillion TL bolts going rather straight, I think that these should be considered freak events, rather than a controlled phenomena. Post-emission TL bolt deflection may exist, but no one yet knows how to exploit it.

[Alan Bolte]

By my understanding,

The bolts could, however, continue on toward their target while changing orientation to remain aligned with the muzzle.

[Instant Sunrise]

Well, we do know that the barrels of the TIE's cannons can swivel to a small degree.

It could be that the guns were pointed up in that instance.

[nightmare]

I doubt that as they wanted prisoners otherwise the AT-AT's would have opened at full power from long range and destroyed the base. Morelikely they could have sent in small strike teams after all the rebels couldn't have the complete system covered in sensors because that would be a deffinent give away.

Errh, Veer's AT-AT did open fire at full power... and there's no reason to believe he waited longer than necessary given that Vader was breathing down his neck. Furthermore, what you suggest claims that Vader never intended a bombardment, which is detailed further in the novelization that he wanted a, "clean bombardment", IIRC.

One thing you say is true - he wanted prisoners. So we can either assume that he at the very least meant to to surgically bombard vital systems from outside the Hoth system (possibly the main reactor and any defences outside the main base, given that he didn't yet have information about the shield being present), or we ignore canon because you doubt it. That... does not quite suffice in my eyes.

[Connor MacLeod]

There are "projectile" variant "blaster/laser/turbolaser" weapons that appear to have some minimal guidance/tracking capabilities, even for capital ship weapons. Its possible the Venator's HTLs mount projectile-weapons in the turrets (or at least some do. Perhaps they mount both beam and projectile weapons on the turret.)

[Alan Bolte]

[Ender]

Actually, there is evidence that the turbolaser's bolt is still under control after it is fired. At Endor, an X-wing is chasing a TIE in a loop, and the shots fired seem to fly straight relative to the looping X-wing, a feat which would require the shot to be accelerated. In the Hoth asteroid belt, there is a scene where one of the brim guns of an ISD fires and a few frames later, the bolt changes course to hit an asteroid.

I don't have the images on me, but since I see them posted every time a "what are turbolasers" debate pops up, someone should be able to provide them.

Lasers can also explode like AAA into energy "flak." See AOTC and ROTJ for examples.

Negative ghost riger - we see SOMETHING explode into flak. Now which makes more sense - that its the energy blasts, thus requiring some strange control and explosion mechanism, or that they are the shells we see fired in ROTS and described in ANH with a plasma sheath coating as described in the TPM ICS?

[Ender]

Actually, there is evidence that the turbolaser's bolt is still under control after it is fired. At Endor, an X-wing is chasing a TIE in a loop, and the shots fired seem to fly straight relative to the looping X-wing, a feat which would require the shot to be accelerated. In the Hoth asteroid belt, there is a scene where one of the brim guns of an ISD fires and a few frames later, the bolt changes course to hit an asteroid.

And the reason why we don't see TL bolts zig-zagging all over the place is because...?

C'mon, Jogurt! If turbolasers really had this property, the Empire would use it fully to its advantage and make those suckers wobble wildly around to try to boggle the pilots or the automatic projectile avoidance computers. It certainly doesn't happen, because otherwise I would've noticed and thought, "What the FUCK?! Those turbolaser bolts are going all over the place!"

Sure, we might not know the exact properties of these TL bolts, but the Empire and the Rebellion sure as fuck do... and would act accordingly.

So he cites examples of the bolts "zigzaggin" as you put it, and you claim we don't see it. Right...

Does the fact that there is a time delay imposed by the base laws of physics help clarify why the direction changes are not more severe?

[Ender]

The controled bolt is not unlimited. Having some control over the direction of the bolt does not mean they can make it do a 360.

You don't see very many examples of a TL bolt turning, even a little wobble. The great majority of the TL bolts seem to go in a straight line. Yet being able to wobble even a little bit after leaving the muzzle seems to be a very useful property that would be exploited like a ten-cent whore. Not only for confusing any TL bolt avoidance hardware and wetware, but being able to bend the bolt late would turn some misses into hits. So why not bend after any moving target?

Time lag ring any bells?

If the visible bit is a tracer that result from decay of the TL beam at a certain energy densty point as believed, then the motion of the bolt would be sweeping at a certain interval after the beam has already been moved. In other words, by the time they see a shot is a miss, it is too late to correct it. This readily explains your objection.

Since there are only a few examples of bending out of the bazillion TL bolts going rather straight, I think that these should be considered freak events, rather than a controlled phenomena. Post-emission TL bolt deflection may exist, but no one yet knows how to exploit it.

The idea that it is a random event is a worse explanation, would you use a weapon that might spontaneously hit another target? Particularily when other equally powerful weapons are available?

[Wyrm]

And the reason why we don't see TL bolts zig-zagging all over the place is because...?

So he cites examples of the bolts "zigzaggin" as you put it, and you claim we don't see it. Right...

No, I never said that it doesn't happen, I'm asking why we don't see it happening in almost every battle. When I say "all over the place", that's exactly what I mean: Why is this event rare and not common?

Time lag ring any bells?

If the visible bit is a tracer that result from decay of the TL beam at a certain energy densty point as believed, then the motion of the bolt would be sweeping at a certain interval after the beam has already been moved. In other words, by the time they see a shot is a miss, it is too late to correct it. This readily explains your objection.

And the FTL sensors and the computer horsepower the SW galaxy is vaunted to have is just for show? Won't it even try to make the TL bolt chase after a dodging target? The computer systems know where the TL bolt is going, so why isn't it handling the show?

A feature has to justify its own expense. If you're not using the feature, then maybe the resources you're spending on that feature are best spent elsewhere.

If a fighter has the FTL sensors and computer horsepower to handle TL course corrections, then you would see it happen often (re: my explanation). Otherwise, unless the fighter pilots take it upon themselves to use it, then it's just a waste of your resources to equip fighters like this.
When Imp fighters fire their TLs, they rarely do anything else but go straight; if the feature is purposeful, it's being used rarely at best. This makes sense: a fighter has a lot on his mind already without administering his own shots past pressing the damn button.

Larger capships definitely have the room to put the sophisticated equipment for post-emission tracking, yet we rarely see it actually happen, especially against targets that are dodging out of the way rapidly. The DS1 TLs weren't designed to fire at snub fighters, but the DS2's were, and capship mounted bolts should veer towards the most valuable targets in the turning arc (weapon's emplacements on enemy ships, engines... soft points, basically -- you'd rather hit them than armor).

By this logic, we should see a fair fraction of TL bolts correcting course in any given battle, but we don't. The only cited example for a cap-ship mounted TL is "correcting course" to strike an asteroid. Asteroid courses aren't hard to predict; if your targeting system needs to correct itself going after an asteroid, something is wrong with your targeting system!

Guided TL bolts can't be a practical technology; the SW universe doesn't use it like a practical technology. This means that the technology is either experimental (they're still testing it out in a limited capacity, but its not commonplace), or it's a rare glitch in the system.

The idea that it is a random event is a worse explanation, would you use a weapon that might spontaneously hit another target? Particularily when other equally powerful weapons are available?

An imperfect weapon is not worthless, and you might hit another target even if the weapon is behaving properly (in fact, it's most likely to be the latter simply due to user error). And the weapon you use is the weapon that gives you the best utility; other equally powerful weapons will have their own problems.

[Connor MacLeod]

The TESB asteroid example isn't proof of a "guided" bolt, its proof of a sustained beam weapon where the beam itself is invisible (which is also demonstrated by "damage before contact" as well as the fact that the visible component is merely a side effect/byproduct/tracer/whatever.

If you want an example of a guided bolt, watch Revege of the Sith. You can see those small "internally mounted" cannons on the Venator firing bolts that display a BLATANTLY ballistic arc as if the bolt WERE turning independently of the barrel. (small surrpise, since the Separatist equivalent is called a "mass driver" yet it fires visible "bolts" that look like other "laser bolts."

[Ender]

And the reason why we don't see TL bolts zig-zagging all over the place is because...?

So he cites examples of the bolts "zigzaggin" as you put it, and you claim we don't see it. Right...

No, I never said that it doesn't happen, I'm asking why we don't see it happening in almost every battle. When I say "all over the place", that's exactly what I mean: Why is this event rare and not common?

It's observed above the Death Star in ANH, in the asteroid field in ESB, and in fighter sequence at Endor in ROTJ. So we see it in all the heavily examined sequences thus far. So far as I know, no one has looked at the prequels that hard yet.

Time lag ring any bells?

If the visible bit is a tracer that result from decay of the TL beam at a certain energy densty point as believed, then the motion of the bolt would be sweeping at a certain interval after the beam has already been moved. In other words, by the time they see a shot is a miss, it is too late to correct it. This readily explains your objection.

And the FTL sensors and the computer horsepower the SW galaxy is vaunted to have is just for show? Won't it even try to make the TL bolt chase after a dodging target? The computer systems know where the TL bolt is going, so why isn't it handling the show?

A feature has to justify its own expense. If you're not using the feature, then maybe the resources you're spending on that feature are best spent elsewhere.

If a fighter has the FTL sensors and computer horsepower to handle TL course corrections, then you would see it happen often (re: my explanation). Otherwise, unless the fighter pilots take it upon themselves to use it, then it's just a waste of your resources to equip fighters like this.
When Imp fighters fire their TLs, they rarely do anything else but go straight; if the feature is purposeful, it's being used rarely at best. This makes sense: a fighter has a lot on his mind already without administering his own shots past pressing the damn button.

Larger capships definitely have the room to put the sophisticated equipment for post-emission tracking, yet we rarely see it actually happen, especially against targets that are dodging out of the way rapidly. The DS1 TLs weren't designed to fire at snub fighters, but the DS2's were, and capship mounted bolts should veer towards the most valuable targets in the turning arc (weapon's emplacements on enemy ships, engines... soft points, basically -- you'd rather hit them than armor).

By this logic, we should see a fair fraction of TL bolts correcting course in any given battle, but we don't. The only cited example for a cap-ship mounted TL is "correcting course" to strike an asteroid. Asteroid courses aren't hard to predict; if your targeting system needs to correct itself going after an asteroid, something is wrong with your targeting system!

Guided TL bolts can't be a practical technology; the SW universe doesn't use it like a practical technology. This means that the technology is either experimental (they're still testing it out in a limited capacity, but its not commonplace), or it's a rare glitch in the system.

I see you still aren't bothering to use that matter between your ears. I repeat my point - time lag. Since you didn't grasp it, let me make it clear:

Sensaor speed and computing speed don't matter a rats ass for this. Even if the sensors detect it and the computers figure out how to compensate, there is still the time lag of the weapon itself that prevents it from being used how you say it should.

Your artifical dilema fails kid.

The idea that it is a random event is a worse explanation, would you use a weapon that might spontaneously hit another target? Particularily when other equally powerful weapons are available?

An imperfect weapon is not worthless, and you might hit another target even if the weapon is behaving properly (in fact, it's most likely to be the latter simply due to user error). And the weapon you use is the weapon that gives you the best utility; other equally powerful weapons will have their own problems.

The idea that a weapon can randomly veer off course by over 90 degrees is definately a bug that makes it worthless.

And the only problems the other equally powerful weapons have is the fact that misiles can be shot down.

[Alan Bolte]

Could someone take a look at ANH and see if the bolts fired from the rapidly turning DS turret track or change orientation at all before disappearing? If they don't, it would mean we have a very definite occurance of bolts existing where a beam could not be, which is kind of a problem. I can't remember where I packed my DVD.

[Wyrm]

Sensaor speed and computing speed don't matter a rats ass for this. Even if the sensors detect it and the computers figure out how to compensate, there is still the time lag of the weapon itself that prevents it from being used how you say it should.

I don't know what you mean by "time lag of the weapon". Which time lag of the weapon? Are you refering to the time lag between the bolt receiving the command to turn and it actually beginning to turn (turning latency)? Between the start of the turn and the end (which is limited by the weapon's dθ/dt)? Both? Something else?

You guys made it sound like the turning capabilities of TLs were practically unlimited, what with turning latency and dθ/dt estimates nowhere to be found. If I had such a weapon, that would be how I would use it, and it's likely an Empire engineer would think of the same uses.

Recall the following quote:

At Endor, an X-wing is chasing a TIE in a loop, and the shots fired seem to fly straight relative to the looping X-wing, a feat which would require the shot to be accelerated.

Let me point out that if I were a TIE fighter pilot being chased by an X-wing, this is exactly when a steerable TL bolt would come in handy. I'd command the computer to "SHOOT DOWN THAT FUCK CHASING ME!" and start blasting away when he comes into view.

Since the TIE fighter computer can't tell what kind of fancy flying the X-wing is going to make, the total time between detection of the turn, calculating the path, and commanding the bolt to turn and the bolt responding successfully to the command must be very short; virtually immediately, since the bolt still appears straight in the film. Turning latency must be very short. Also, the fact that the bolt still appears straight while the X-wing is accelerating indicates that dθ/dt for TL bolts is at least as good to keep up with an X-wing well enough for the bolts to appear straight.

I'm not prepared at the moment to make this kind of calculation, so I'll have to bow out here. However, I have outlined a scheme to put some limits on this steerable TL thing.

Your artifical dilema fails kid.

That's "dilemma".

The idea that a weapon can randomly veer off course by over 90 degrees is definately a bug that makes it worthless.

Sometimes veer of course. A decision analysis depends on both how bad the outcome is and how rare the outcome is. For any given technology, a bad thing is always possible, and your decision is based on the expected loss of the action, not directly on what might go wrong.

In order to win a decision analysis argument, you have to demonstrate that such a flaky TL behavior occurs often enough to make the TL "worthless," or more properly, not as useful as another technology (which you also have to give an expected loss for).

I, however, am not prepared to perform such loss calculations without a realistic loss model for stray shots, so I'll have to leave it at that with advantage to you. All I know is that whatever flakey behavior the TL displays (be it rebellious TL bolts, the weapon blowing up in your face, or what have you) the Empire's decision analysis team decided TLs had the best utility.

[Norade]

If the occurence was rare enough couldn't it just be induvidual gunners trick shooting? It could be that the Imperial targeting computers for reasons stated above can't control a bolt in flight, but can arc them, however targeting may take longer and be less acurate so it isn't often used. When it is used it could be an experienced gunner showing off.