Peregrine and Defiant... Star Wars ripoffs?

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-09-12 05:31pm

They're the first Federation ships seen that are designed specifically for combat and in such a way (as opposed to simply making a bigger capital ship with more guns) and the way they fire "machine gun"-like pulse phasers that force them to remain on axis pointing towards a target...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-09-12 05:45pm

I see no evidence that they are rip-offs, just some generalizing speculation from you, which is on a level, which likes could be applied to practically anything. You think weapon that have to be pointed at the target are something? Do you any idea how many real life aircraft have fixed forward firing machine guns? Do you have any idea how often sci fi craft have fixed axis forward firing automatic weapons?

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-12 05:47pm

The P-51 Mustang and P-38 Lightning are aircraft designed specifically for combat by firing machine guns forwards along a single axis that forces them to point towards the target in order to hit it.

See the flaw in your reasoning?

My point is that, while the Trek designers might've taken some inspiration from Wars, it's *much* more likely that they saw the in-universe need for a stronger, dedicated warship (the Defiant-class ships) and a dedicated fighter-type craft (the Peregrine). I don't see the problem here...

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-09-12 05:49pm

It should be noted that at least the Defiant is capable limited off axis fire with pulse phasers.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-09-12 05:59pm

Lord Revan wrote:It should be noted that at least the Defiant is capable limited off axis fire with pulse phasers.

Also both the Defiant-class (or at least the Defiant herself) and Peregrine-type/class mount regular beam phaser (that are capable of firing off axis), The Peregrine one beam phaser mount on lower surface of it's nose and the Defiant has at least three phasers mounted on different locations in the ship.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-12 06:23pm

I don't seem to remember too many flat oval shapped ships in SW.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-09-12 08:23pm

it's *much* more likely that they saw the in-universe need for a stronger, dedicated warship (the Defiant-class ships) and a dedicated fighter-type craft (the Peregrine).

LOL, tell that to early-TNG Picard.

But thanks for the corrections.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2005-09-12 09:01pm

Edward Yee wrote:
it's *much* more likely that they saw the in-universe need for a stronger, dedicated warship (the Defiant-class ships) and a dedicated fighter-type craft (the Peregrine).
LOL, tell that to early-TNG Picard.

But thanks for the corrections.

Because Picard is responsible for Starfleet designs....

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-09-12 11:17pm

Just joking about his attitude; partly referring to this one quote as "relics from a brutish and uncivilized time," I believe?

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2005-09-13 03:33pm

And you'd probably be less justified as claiming the Naboo Star fighters were a rip-off of theImperial Courier from Elite: Frontier.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2005-09-13 03:44pm

Darth Servo wrote:I don't seem to remember too many flat oval shapped ships in SW.

The Defiant is a flat oval with a piece added on to the nose. The Falcon is a flat oval with a piece taken off the nose.

Of course, other than that they have little to nothing in common.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2005-09-13 03:46pm

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:I don't seem to remember too many flat oval shapped ships in SW.
The Defiant is a flat oval with a piece added on to the nose. The Falcon is a flat oval with a piece taken off the nose.

Of course, other than that they have little to nothing in common.

Forward firing missile launchers, and a tendency to be uberwanked by fanboys and secondary source writers.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-09-13 03:47pm

Forward firing missile launchers, and a tendency to be uberwanked by fanboys and secondary source writers.

That would cover about 80% of ships in both franchises

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-09-19 04:26am

Actually, IMHO, the Defiant is one of the best inventions of TNG shows. It is exactly what a real millitary would do. New enemy (The Borg) design a weapon to fight it (The Defiant) Oh cool it works against multiple enemies. It also shows realistic thinking in that the Fed went outside of thier own self "inflicted" guidlines (violated a treaty/cloaking device, built a pure warship with no peacefull/exploratory means) to preserve the society that put the guidlines there in the first place.

Oh, and just cause the thing is roundish with a protruding part, doesn't mean it ripped off the Falcon. If you look at the design, they just took (for arguments sake) a Constitution and got rid of all the non vital areas and parts. Kinda like the Reliant design, but even more compact. I don't know what a Pere-thingie looks like.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-09-19 05:25am

I don't know what a Pere-thingie looks like.

Blocky and butt-ugly.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-09-19 05:38am

Are you sure that's a Peregrine? It doesn't look like [url=http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Peregrine_class]These Peregrines./url]

Of course I could be looking at the images wrong.

bilateralrope · Post by **bilateralrope** » 2005-09-19 05:45am

If I look hard enough, they seem to be at least similar ships, if not the same class, on different angles

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-09-19 05:51am

There's also at least three variants of the model (Starfleet fighter, Maquis fighter, Maquis transport (where the cockpit was replaced with bridge windows to make it look far larger)

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2005-09-19 05:59am

Thanks Bounty... yeah I recognize it as a Marquis fighter.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2005-09-19 10:38am

havokeff wrote:(violated a treaty/cloaking device,

Well no in thie case of the defiant the Cloaking device was loaned to Starfleet by the Romulans. In exchange for data on the Dominion and the Wormhole. While Starfleet has in the past violated the treaty, that ended horribly for the organisation. The Defiant was not a violation but a direct agreed upon exception, that I think at the start of the agreement limited them to using it only on the Dominion's side of the Wormhole.

Which is why only the Defiant (The Ship) has a Cloaking device and not the Defiant-Class.

Later I imagine the two agreed to loosen the rules as the war got heated/Sisko ignored the rules to save his crew.

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-19 06:42pm

Elheru Aran wrote:The P-51 Mustang and P-38 Lightning are aircraft designed specifically for combat by firing machine guns forwards along a single axis that forces them to point towards the target in order to hit it.

There was a British fighter called the Defiant in WWII.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-09-19 06:48pm

Lord Sabre Ace wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:The P-51 Mustang and P-38 Lightning are aircraft designed specifically for combat by firing machine guns forwards along a single axis that forces them to point towards the target in order to hit it.
There was a British fighter called the Defiant in WWII.

Though ironically, the Defiant wasn't meant to point towards the enemy to fight. While it did have a single forward firing .303 machine gun, its main armament was four such weapons in a turret behind the pilot. The idea was it could fly up alongside or below enemy bombers, and blast them, making for much easier interceptions then conventional fighters had to make. It actually worked fairly well against German bombers in 1940, but only when the enemy had little or no fighter escort, owning to the poor performance of the aircraft and limited rates of training and elevation for the turret.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-09-19 07:07pm

I'm curious: do these ships have adjustable covergence? All the shots of Defiant firing I have seen have the four weapons apparently firing parallel (although not always directly forward), so not all are guaranteed to hit. Perhaps the projectiles move so slowly this is neccesary?

NoXion · Post by **NoXion** » 2005-09-19 07:28pm

Lord Sabre Ace wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:The P-51 Mustang and P-38 Lightning are aircraft designed specifically for combat by firing machine guns forwards along a single axis that forces them to point towards the target in order to hit it.
There was a British fighter called the Defiant in WWII.

I wonder if that's where the DS9 writers got the name from.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-09-19 07:40pm

I wonder what was the original idea behind the pulse-phaser fixed axis weapons on the Defiant.

Fixed axis seems to be a disadvantage.

Brian