Modern tank vs Mobile Suit, serious calcs included.

[Typhonis 1]

Well armors big advantage is SURFACE area armoring a BOX against armoring a Human the box wins out also heres something eklse for the cost of one mech you may be able to get four tanks,this is using BTech and well numbers rule

[Sea Skimmer]

Well armors big advantage is SURFACE area armoring a BOX against armoring a Human the box wins out also heres something eklse for the cost of one mech you may be able to get four tanks,this is using BTech and well numbers rule

For this size mecha, twenty would be closer to reality. Or better yet ten, four IFV's wih ATGM teams and a couple SPG's with laser guided rounds for support.

[The Yosemite Bear]

People in Battle Tech & Renegade Legion fear my Poor Bloody Infantry. I am very fond of mines, sniping, and good Atty.


Also for those who think that those arm mounted weapons can carry anything really big. I would ask SAMAS, Data_Link, and Ben Robbins to kindly fire a pair of .58 caliber Rifled Muskets (with standard combat double loads) from your hip (like Daniel Day-Lewis did in Last of the Mohicians). Before stating that said weapons are as fast as you claim while still having such a low recoil. After all they did it in the movie.

[SWPIGWANG]

Hey, can someone give me a screen capature on how a Zak-Head got blown up by a hand thrown demo-charge.

Yes Zakus have crap armor, even vulcan cannons can kill them. (though they are 60mm vulcans...or listed as such even though It does not scale when one measures the size in anime)

Gundam has magical armor, so they don't count. A kid with a Gundam can get dozens of kills against trained troops.

[Typhonis 1]

30mm gatlings eat modern tanks alive (GAU_8 comes to mind,used by a-10 Warthog fires milkbottle sized 30mmm ap slugs at 1350 rnds a minute if fired for too long the plane starts going in reverse) also why is it alsways so easy for thse damn kids to pilot mecha I mean comon they read a freakin manual look the controls over and are slaughtering enemy mechs?? at least in the origional gundam the hero needed to work a bit.

[Vympel]

30mm gatlings eat modern tanks alive (GAU_8 comes to mind,used by a-10 Warthog fires milkbottle sized 30mmm ap slugs at 1350 rnds a minute if fired for too long the plane starts going in reverse)

The importnace of the GAU-8 is a bit overstated. It's quite effective when fired at from behind/above the enemy tank, but really the prime weapon of the A-10 is the Maverick.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

30mm gatlings eat modern tanks alive (GAU_8 comes to mind,used by a-10 Warthog fires milkbottle sized 30mmm ap slugs at 1350 rnds a minute if fired for too long the plane starts going in reverse)

The importnace of the GAU-8 is a bit overstated. It's quite effective when fired at from behind/above the enemy tank, but really the prime weapon of the A-10 is the Maverick.

Carries 8 of them and the Mav is a fire or forget weapon, this means that each A-10 going on a mission could come back with 8+ tank kills...

And the recoil isn't as bad as you think - full fire only reduces forward air speed by 5 kts. But you WILL feel it.

[Dendrobius]

OK, Lord Wong, back at it. I apologize about sniping at your alma mater, given that you've graduated and I've yet to. I had just finished my Materials exam and was quite frustrated, and let it get the better of me.

Foot loading - I can accept human feet being loaded with 3-7 times body weight at peak time. That would put me in best case scenario not significantly worse than the T90, and worse case scenario two to three T90's worth, WHEN RUNNING FULL OUT. Which means even if the Zaku's going at top speed it'd still be comparable with the T90 in mud. And obviously it's not going to go at full speed in mud, the T90 won't be either (45km/h cross country, slower in mud). So it ain't sinking anytime soon.

http://www.ehobbyland.com/Gundam/MG/MG-MS-06FJ2.jpg\
This is the model I measured off, I own it. 18cm tall, 5cm long and 2.5cm wide foot.

Speed - Isn't this a blatant strawman attack? In that example I merely said top speed is faster, nothing about shooting on the move. You start to go on about shooting and moving, which is another entirely different topic.

Shattering - Where am I referring to weapon calibre or composition from 'official data' in this analysis? The official stats says "KE penetrator", That's it. I used DU merely as a convenience and for ease of comparison. I will accept the concession on that a 5km/s projectile will not shatter on impact even with current technology owing to you not providing any counter calculations to prove your point.

Shell - It was not me who compared it with real life shells, it was MKSheppard and Sea Skimmer et al in the last thread, and they kept saying it HAS to be a low velocity HE shell. I first disproved low velocity, and just to rub it in I disproved that it could possibly be HE.

And why are you saying that there's no reason to compare it with real-life shells or assume that it is equivalent in any way, when that's the entire point of the debate is to show that fantasy (Gundam) measures up to real life (T90)?

Toppling - I can't just say the problem can be solved, I must show that it can be solved? Fine:
Assume centre of gravity for Zaku is located .001m above ground level. (nobody can argue this either way as nobody knows the weight distribution of Zaku)
Hence CG of Zaku is ridiculously low. Recoil problem solved since we don't see Zaku bending like a willow when it fires weapon and it is capable of taking M1A1 class recoil. ACCORDING TO YOUR VERSION.
See what I mean? I told you that it CAN be solved, and I just SHOWED that it has been solved. IN OTHER WORDS, IT CAN SWING EITHER WAY DUE TO LACK OF DATA.

Disprove me by showing me the weight distribution of a Zaku and calculating how far up it can fire the thing without falling. Don't scale a human to a Zaku size and use that, because that's totally invalid. If you can't, then I think we're both going to have to lay off this one.

Magella cannon - Yes, we have never seen them fire significantly off body. Or I haven't at any rate, and I've seen quite a bit of Gundam...somebody can disprove me here if they have evidence!

Why? Did it ever occur to you that since the weapons must only damage the thin, light armour of the Zakus (remember the weight figure you cited earlier; thin armour is a given), a high-velocity shell with low-mass and weak explosive is hardly out of the question? Why do you persist in constructing your arguments as if powerful shells are a given, when that is the point of contention?

Well, we see ground being SHAKEN from the effects of a Magella. You must have some pretty decent energy in that shell to do so, be it from HE or from it's inherent KE. I have disproved that it can be HE. Therefore ground shaking comes almost entirely from KE. Thus it's at least equal to a T90 shot, which AFAIK doesn't do a mini imitation of an earthquake when it hits the ground. And this further clicks with my previous arguments about the Magella being quite powerful as anti-armour!

And you know that because ...? Bullets in real-life infantry weapons have been getting smaller and lighter, NOT heavier and bigger, for many decades now; why do you think the same is inconceivable here?

Aren't you comparing peaches to apples now? The Magella is a TANK. Infantry are not TANKS. NO CONNECTION EXISTS. Furthermore, tank development trends have always been for longer range, more powerful shots, and better protection. So since you insinuate that past development DOES have a factor in this, then I claim the same privilege and say that the Magella being in the future should be longer ranged and more powerful. Which evidence does point towards.

A T90 has WW2-era armour? Fascinating. Which military handbook did you get this from? Or did you pull it from your ass?

Hmm...did you read my words "WHAT I AM SAYING HERE IS THAT IN EFFECT". I am drawing a comparison. I am not saying that the T90 has WWII armour. I am not stupid. Maybe misguided, but not stupid.

The usual summing up:

- I believe nobody's going to argue that the Magella fires low velocity shots anymore (5km/s AVERAGE velocity, not even muzzle)? No objections to it being none HE either (180g of goodness)? Well, my previous calculation which Howedar did not understand proved that it cannot be of too low a mass or else it would exhibit drift characteristics which we never see in series. Thus according to my calculations the Magella cannon can be easily as powerful as the T90's main cannon, and it outranges it too! (KE round vs indirect HE rounds at 10 klicks...)

- As I said, nobody can say either way about toppling. So we will have to now discount this. You cannot use this as an argument anymore since you certainly can't prove that the Zaku must fall over. I cannot use this because I can't prove that the Zaku cannot fall over. Unless of course you're telling me that you have the weight distribution of a Zaku handy.

With these two factors, I think I can say that Zakus have a chance against the T90, which is all that I've been trying to say all along. Underrated. I never said they would kick T90 ass, I said they'd be at least competitive.

data_link, I appreciate that you're arguing this just for fun. Thanks anyway! And as for that case, I was proving the speed of the Magella cannon that the Zaku was carrying, not the Gundam's Beam Rifle. SAMAS and I think SylasGaunt both back me for that evidence.[/quote]

[Sea Skimmer]

30mm gatlings eat modern tanks alive (GAU_8 comes to mind,used by a-10 Warthog fires milkbottle sized 30mmm ap slugs at 1350 rnds a minute if fired for too long the plane starts going in reverse)

The importnace of the GAU-8 is a bit overstated. It's quite effective when fired at from behind/above the enemy tank, but really the prime weapon of the A-10 is the Maverick.

Carries 8 of them and the Mav is a fire or forget weapon, this means that each A-10 going on a mission could come back with 8+ tank kills...

And the recoil isn't as bad as you think - full fire only reduces forward air speed by 5 kts. But you WILL feel it.

Standard load out is six; you carry them on racks of three. Its Hellfire that comes in fours. Though a load out of twelve is possibul. But the limited supply and rareness of sufficient targets in one mission to expend even that many means such warloads are uncommon. Normally its six mavericks, and maybe a pair of rockeyes or other CBU's for soft targets.

IIRC, you can't fire more then 1/3 of the A-10's ammo in one burst or the gun gasses will stall the engines.

[MKSheppard]

OK, Lord Wong, back at it.

Jesus man



Stop beating the damn dead horse like you have something for it....

[The Yosemite Bear]

Shell - It was not me who compared it with real life shells, it was MKSheppard and Sea Skimmer et al in the last thread, and they kept saying it HAS to be a low velocity HE shell. I first disproved low velocity, and just to rub it in I disproved that it could possibly be HE.

And why are you saying that there's no reason to compare it with real-life shells or assume that it is equivalent in any way, when that's the entire point of the debate is to show that fantasy (Gundam) measures up to real life (T90)?

Toppling - I can't just say the problem can be solved, I must show that it can be solved? Fine:
Assume centre of gravity for Zaku is located .001m above ground level. (nobody can argue this either way as nobody knows the weight distribution of Zaku)
Hence CG of Zaku is ridiculously low. Recoil problem solved since we don't see Zaku bending like a willow when it fires weapon and it is capable of taking M1A1 class recoil. ACCORDING TO YOUR VERSION.
See what I mean? I told you that it CAN be solved, and I just SHOWED that it has been solved. IN OTHER WORDS, IT CAN SWING EITHER WAY DUE TO LACK OF DATA.

[/quote]

OK, you asked for it

Also for those who think that those arm mounted weapons can carry anything really big. I would ask SAMAS, Data_Link, and Ben Robbins to kindly fire a pair of .58 caliber Rifled Muskets (with standard combat double loads) from your hip (like Daniel Day-Lewis did in Last of the Mohicians). Before stating that said weapons are as fast as you claim while still having such a low recoil. After all they did it in the movie.

watches as your writst shatter crippling you, also the recoil slamming itn your thighs dislocates your hips.

Gee, it looked so easy in the movie

Never argue recoil with a Full Bird's Grandson, and Battle reinactor.

[Illuminatus Primus]

30mm gatlings eat modern tanks alive (GAU_8 comes to mind,used by a-10 Warthog fires milkbottle sized 30mmm ap slugs at 1350 rnds a minute if fired for too long the plane starts going in reverse) also why is it alsways so easy for thse damn kids to pilot mecha I mean comon they read a freakin manual look the controls over and are slaughtering enemy mechs?? at least in the origional gundam the hero needed to work a bit.

Answering the question: Masturbatory fantasies. Like most anime shit.

I thought the GAU-8A Avenger had upwards of 2000 rpm?

Those penetrators DU?

[Howedar]

Feel free at some point to show us these 5mx2.5m feet.

[SAMAS]

To answer a few points on my own:

But first, to head off any questions: Why do we use 08th MS Team so much? Two reasons. First, it's the only Gundam series I have in it's entirety. Second, it was the last One Year War-era Gundam series made(1996, just after Gundam Wing), so it's the most recent information.

Disreguarding Gun size:
Don't try to put words in our mouths. We were talking about the out[ut of their power plants and energy weapons, and only then because their on-screen performace exceeded those numbers(No matter what you say about how, the fact that the Apsalus II destroyed a mountain, when you said that little over a third of it's stated power wouldn't do Jack shit to it cannot be denied)

However, Mobile Suit size and Gun Barrel diameter can also be measured, and stack up in comparison to their stated abilities.

In episode 2 of 08th MS team, you can verify the size of the RX-79[G] Gundam's machinegun in one scene where Shiro makes a close-up inspection of his suit's weapon.

http://samas.freehosting.net/Guneye.jpg


Mobile Suit Weapon Rate of Fire: Unfortunately, RoF numbers were never given, and I'm not good enough to determine the RoF of the machineguns. However, both the Bazookas and the Magella Attack Cannons have been shown to have a RoF of about 120RPMs(in other words, they've been shown firing twice in a second.) Beam Rifles have a similar rate.


Mobile Suit Mobility: For such massive targets, Mobile Suits have been shown dodging point-blank fire quite often in 08th MS Team. And not just from Mobile Suits. Zakus have been shown dodging fire from missile launchers fired in front of their feet as well. I don't know why you keep bringing this particular steaming pile up, Sheppard. Size doesn't matter if the target can get out of your weapon's way before you can hit it.


Mobile Suit targeting and Recoil(episode : Remember this: The Gundams were not trying to simply hit the Zaku. That wasn't a problem even without being in "firing range" They were trying to take it out in a way that wouldn't cause it's reactor to go off. In this case, they were going for the Zaku's arms, a target that was much closer, due to facing and position.

The Zaku was sideward to the Gundams, and holding it's cannon lengthwise. The first shot missed only because the Zaku stopped unexpectantly(again, the problem of leading a target off at a distance).

The Zaku then stopped to find and destroy it's target, giving the Gundams an opporutnity to hit it again.

http://samas.freehosting.net/BeamShot1.jpg

See that little point of light? That's the oncoming Beam shot. A better look at the ranges involved in this fight.

Half a second later, the Beam reaches it's target.

http://samas.freehosting.net/BeamShot2.jpg
http://samas.freehosting.net/BeamShot3.jpg
http://samas.freehosting.net/BeamShot4.jpg

Ouch.

The Beam hits with enough fore not only to break the gun and shear off the Zaku's arms(in other words, a direct hit), but the Zaku is knocked to the ground, flying a full height at least before it even hits the ground. It hasn't even stopped skidding by the time the shot ends.

As for stability, Mobile Suit can, in fact, shoot while on the move with their norma guns, even when in the air, as Norris Packard demonstrated. The biggest obstacles are the heavy cannons and the Bazookas, for which a Mobile Suit often has to stop to fire with.

Beam Rifles are also usually another consideration, as they pack a lot of kinetic impact(see above.) When a Gundam fires them one-handed, it usually throws the suit's arm violently, and even moves the entire suit when fired in space. When they hit something, they usually don't stop. However, a Gundam has never shown any such recoil when it fires it's rifle with TWO hands. A similar effect is found when the RX-79[G] fires it's 180mm cannon. It shows little recoil when it fires, even though it normally kneels to brace it's body.

[Typhonis 1]

Hmm could the Gundams slughtrower cannons be firing HEAT instead of HE or evenn maybe HESH?

[SAMAS]

Hmm could the Gundams slughtrower cannons be firing HEAT instead of HE or evenn maybe HESH?

Actually, I think they may use all, or some, of the above. Sometimes, rounds are seen to explode when they strike the target, other times, they don't.

[Howedar]

Please support the foot size, Mechies.

[SAMAS]

What foot size?

[Sea Skimmer]

30mm gatlings eat modern tanks alive (GAU_8 comes to mind,used by a-10 Warthog fires milkbottle sized 30mmm ap slugs at 1350 rnds a minute if fired for too long the plane starts going in reverse) also why is it alsways so easy for thse damn kids to pilot mecha I mean comon they read a freakin manual look the controls over and are slaughtering enemy mechs?? at least in the origional gundam the hero needed to work a bit.

Answering the question: Masturbatory fantasies. Like most anime shit.

I thought the GAU-8A Avenger had upwards of 2000 rpm?

Those penetrators DU?

1360 rounds is the total ammunition capacity. The rate of fire is normally 4,200 rounds per minute

[Dendrobius]

Howedar

Please support the foot size, Mechies.

- see my link in my previous post. I re-measured my model again, it actually comes close to 4.5cmx3cm (or 4.5mx3m) which gives 13.5m^2 per feet or 27m^2 total area. 60000kg/27m^2 gives you 2222kg/m^2, which is lower than my initial calc. It's in the same ballpark. However you look at it, static it puts the T90 to shame and then some, mobile it's still more than comparable.

MKSheppard

Stop beating the damn dead horse like you have something for it....

- Oh really? When you've done nothing but SHOT OFF AT THE MOUTH, claimed that you'd rip my calculations into shreds, but gave NOTHING in reply to refute ANY of my claims? When I ripped your "10km shots must drop like crazy" argument to pieces with HIGH SCHOOL physics as well as your precious ground pressure comparision? HAHAHAH!

THe Yosemite Bear

watches as your writst shatter crippling you, also the recoil slamming itn your thighs dislocates your hips.

Gee, it looked so easy in the movie

Never argue recoil with a Full Bird's Grandson, and Battle reinactor.

- Attention: MSs are not oversized humans. You cannot simply say that "this happens to a human, so it must happen to a Mech, because it looks humanoid and is of larger size"

I've proven the cannon I am referring to is not low velocity, I've proven that its projectile cannot be of too low a mass or else it wouldn't match the performance characteristics we see in the series, and I've proven that it cannot be simply HE. We saw it fire this thing in the series without breaking its wrist or throwing a hip. Refute me by proving my cannon calculations are wrong.

Since neither you, nor Sea Skimmer, nor MKSheppard, nor Howedar have put up any viable counter arguments backed with calculations/physics whatsoever to refute my major point, shut up and concede already. All you guys can do is whinge and moan and let Lord Wong do all the work. Pathetic. Really, utterly pathetic.

Or are you all going to wait until Lord Wong comes around to pull your collective chestnuts out of the fire?

SAMAS, thanks for the general backup. If you'd be so kind, could you put up screenies of the Zaku's foot 'walking' over Shiro? (Further prove point about foot size)

[Vejut]

I believe the point he is trying to make is compare the recoil of the 120 on the mech vs. a high-recoil (roughly proportional to size) gun on a human.

Don't have stats for .58 muzzle velocity or bullet size, otherwise I would compare the speed they're going to try to push the firing object to.
Keep in mind that the amount of recoil done to your mech is going to proportional to the amount of force and penetration of your round.

180g of "goodness"...oh, wow, I'm so impressed by less than .2kg of explosive. You're going to try to hurt my tank with the amount of explosive in a small firecracker or three (NOT an M-80, I mean the little ones you use on green army men...)

BTW, for 5000m/s velocity, and the same momentum as an M-1's gun, you'd need a 1800g (1.8kg), not 180g projectile. That might be a typo, I guess...

Of course, the mech will at least attempt to spin itself around if you plant the gun in your hip: tanks don't have to deal with that. they also don't have to deal with a horribly complicated ballasting system to prevent themselves from flipping oven when they're gun is fired (thats assuming we take your "disprove by finding an explaination you can't prove" arguement.

[Dendrobius]

Vejut, if you'd taken the time to actually read and understand what's been calculated previously, you wouldn't be doing this.

I believe the point he is trying to make is compare the recoil of the 120 on the mech vs. a high-recoil (roughly proportional to size) gun on a human.

I realise that. Know that you cannot merely scale up a human to Mech size, and whatever affect the human up that same scale, and say that since the human cannot do that, the Mech cannot. So his comparison is total rubbish. It's like saying my toy car can be dropped 6cm without damage, therefore my real car can be dropped 6m without being damaged either.

180g of "goodness"...oh, wow, I'm so impressed by less than .2kg of explosive. You're going to try to hurt my tank with the amount of explosive in a small firecracker or three (NOT an M-80, I mean the little ones you use on green army men...)

Thank you for proving my point. You'll notice in previous posts that I have specifically said that a 180g HE shell would do JACK, which was the point I was proving. Thank you again. Idiot.

Of course, the mech will at least attempt to spin itself around if you plant the gun in your hip: tanks don't have to deal with that. they also don't have to deal with a horribly complicated ballasting system to prevent themselves from flipping oven when they're gun is fired (thats assuming we take your "disprove by finding an explaination you can't prove" arguement.

Numbers, please? Talk is cheap. Do some calcs. In this case I said specifically that it's not beneficial to either side to use that argument because the most critical data (weight distribution) is not available. Or can't you follow a simple discussion of mechanics?

Read all the previous posts, and actually try to understand what's being said, before you fire off?

[Typhonis 1]

ok whats to keep the mechs ammo from cooking off as it fires it from its nice cannon? I mean a 120mm ac is just silly the barrel wear and heat build up would be problematic only way to overcome it would be with what the Navy uses in its 127mm cannons but thats too bulky for a Mech to carry

[The Yosemite Bear]

Exactly, I was talking the proportionate stress on the body.

Mind you, the stress on the rifle barrel and strain would cause premature breakdown. and if it's working at full auto the break down rates would be horrible. It's people who abuse the basic laws of physics in such a manner are one of the reasons that I left Space Battles for GOOD!!!

[MKSheppard]

Since neither you, nor Sea Skimmer, nor MKSheppard, nor Howedar have put up any viable counter arguments backed with calculations/physics whatsoever to refute my major point

We don't need to. And besides, we've gone onto other things, like playing
Hearts of Iron, while you whack off to your Mechas......

BTW, care to explain how your 120mm Machineguns have no visible recoil,
yet can supposedly kill a T-90, even though a 120mm gun firing ROCKS
a M-1A2 tank even though it has a much better center of gravity and
weighs more than your Zaku mecha?

If you can't explain that, nor the lack of recoil at 60 rounds a minute
or more....then FOAD.