Is Star Wars a ripoff?

[Ghost Rider]

LOL...that's a good one.

Ah poor Spidey...at least he makes quips

[neoolong]

LOL...that's a good one.

Ah poor Spidey...at least he makes quips

At least he gets to bone a redhead and not attempt to bone his sister. Well, Luke gets a redhead to, but not in the movies.

[Ghost Rider]

Please no more on that note, because for all we know GL will somehow use Padme to really be Anakin long lost sister, and well.....ewwwwwwwwww

[Pcm979]

Gah! DOuble post!

You did it because of a subconcious influence.
On topic, if you believe hollywood everybody is ripping off everybody else to infinity.

[greenmm]

Can it be true?! Think on this;

1)Tattooine=Arrakis.

Aside from the fact that they're both desert planets, there's not that much comparison. Tattooine's indigenous lifeforms include a sentient species (Tusken Raiders); Arrakis' indigenous species (at least prior to Leto II's transformation), the sand worms, aren't truly sentient, and the Fremen of Dune were Zensunni refugees dropped off there millenia before.

2)Vaporators=Dew precipitators.

Different names for a modern-day technology that, as Mr. Bean pointed out, would be necessary on a planet where there's no free-standing water available. Although apparantly Tattooine has more available than Arrakis, since Tattooine doesn't seem to have to worry so much about importing water or being as careful with it.

Also, there's the other difference: the Fremen are hoarding all the water they can to change the climate of Arrakis, while the moisture farmers of Tattooine sell their "crop" to raise money.

3)Kessel Spice=Melange. Without the EU, what are we to think of that?

Nothing. Less than a thousand years ago, merchants and nobility in Europe prized the spices from the East as being as valuable, if not more so, than silver and gold.

Even without the EU expansion on Kessel spice, it's immediately obvious that Kessel spice doesn't hold the same importance to the Galactic economy of SW that Arrakeen spice holds to the Dune universe. One is a highly prized commodity for smugglers because of its high price-to-volume ratio, the other is the only way to have interstellar travel as well as the advanced ESP and other mind-tricks of the Bene Gesserit and the Fremen Reverend Mothers.

4)Stormtroopers=Saudakar. Soldier fanatics of the Emperor by any other name....

Have been done in fantasy and science fiction before. The difference, though, is that while stormtroopers are considered some of the best trained soldiers in the SW universe, they've never been portrayed as being unbeatable. In contrast, the Sardukaur were known to be unbeatable... up until the Fremen beat them. And that was only because the hellhole otherwise known as Arrakis was even harsher than the Sardukaur's homeworld, thus literally creating a group of 'born warriors'.

Elite troops have also existed in real life, as well. English Redcoats, Nazi Stormtroopers, Commandos, the Assassins, samurai, and others throughout history as well as in the pages of fiction. It could just as easily be said that Samurai were the basis for Sardukaur, since a samurai was loyal to his lord's every command, and it was considered great dishonor to survive the death of one's lord.

5)Spice smugglers=Spice smugglers.
[/quoite]

This is a real stretch, actually. Whenever you have a controlled substance that a) has a very wide range of customers, b) has a sale price that provides you with a very nice profit margin measured in the hundreds of percents, and c) is a commodity that people will sometimes literally sell their souls and mothers to obtain, you'll find people who will try to "get in on the action" without going through official channels.

Again, though, Kessel spice in SW doesn't have the importance that Arrakeen spice has in the Dune Universe.

Now for the "mere" similarities.

1)Luke Skywalker and Paul Atreides. One is a farmboy, the other's a scion of nobility, but, they're both youngsters of destiny and martial arts prowess.

Luke's "martial arts prowess" is decidedly inferior, though. As has been pointed out before, his swordsmanship and saber technique, while impressive for having had little formal training, owes more to his ability in the Force than actual training prowess. Before he learned of the Force, and before he had any training in using a lightsaber, his combat skills were mostly limited to piloting ability -- witness, for example, that his accuracy with a blaster in ANH is not much greater than the stormtroopers he's fighting (and since Tarkin and Vader's plan was for the MF to escape and lead them to the Rebel base, the possibility is good that the stormtroopers were deliberately shooting to miss).

In contrast, Paul's combat abilities have little to do with his prescience or his abilities as the Kwizach Haderach (sp?). They have to do with his being trained from a small child by 2 master armsmen and sometime assassins (Duncan Idaho and Gurney Haleck) as well as his father's chief Mentat and assassin (Thufir Hawat), as well as his mother's breaking with Bene Gesserit tradition and teaching him the prana-bindu techniques to enhance his reflexes and muscle control. Being the Kwizach Haderach was not a requirement to learn those techniques, as 2 non-Atreidies are shown in the books to have received the same training later on (Gurney Haleck and the ex-Emperor's grandson, both of whom are shown with that knowledge in Children of Dune).

Moreover, the scope of their destinies is quite different. Skywalker was destined to confront his father, and either turn him back to the Light side of the Force or kill him in combat, in either case removing Vader's support from the Emperor and restoring the Jedi heritage to the galaxy. Paul, OTOH, was not even destined to be what he was. He was supposed to be a girl, that would be married to Feyd Harkonnen to produce the Kwizach Haderach. Instead, his mother gave Leto I a son, and the Bene Gesserit's hoped-for means of controlling humanity's future came a generation early, unexpected and unable to be controlled.

Also, consider that Luke was eager to fulfill his destiny, while Paul spent his entire life trying to avoid the destiny he saw with his prescience.

2)The Jedi and the Bene Gesserit. They're both ancient schools dedicated to keeping peace in their respective galaxies. The Jedi are pro-active, the BG are arbitrators.

The Jedi are perhaps more visible than the BG, but the BG are actually more pro-active than the Jedi. The Jedi tend to try to avoid confrontation, and will actually stay out of matters that they don't think concern them. The BG, OTOH, while publically taking the same stance, would work behind the scenes to try and control the situation to their benefit. And don't forget their millenia-long genetics program. Over countless generations, they covertly or overtly controlled, suborned, and took over the genetic heritage of numerous lines and Houses in order to produce a male BG... but not with the end of improving the human genome, but rather with the idea of taking control of the known universe (or at least the human-controlled part). The Jedi never wanted to control the Republic, and saw themselves as servants of it; the BG's proclaimed themselves servants of the Empire, but lusted for control over the Empire, and in a sense held quite a bit, perhaps more even than the Padishah Emperor did.

3)Swordsmanship features prominently in both sagas.

Actually, it was knife-fighting in Dune. The only reason energy weapons weren't used more was apparantly they'd stopped research on directed-energy weapons when shield technology was found to react very badly to lasers (aka lasguns). When your primary energy weapons cause kiloton-yield nuclear explosions when they hit a personal shield, you tend to adopt other weapons of war.

Consider, too, that while most lightsaber training was limited to the Jedi (the ability of a lightsaber to cause a clumsy apprentice to turn himself into an amputee means that only the best conventional swordsmen, apprentices with inhuman reflexes, or those with a paranormal edge [i.e. Jedi] could hope to use one effectively in combat, particularly for the more flamboyant tricks such as parrying blaster bolts), knife-fighting was a common skill known not only to the Fremen and most soldiers, but also to most nobles of the Great and Lesser Houses in the Dune universe, where duels were very common.

4)Fremen and Tusken Raiders. If you just go by verbal descrptions, the TR costumes could make a more convincing robed Fremen in stillsuit than has been portrayed in the actual Dune films.

Stilsuit? Not really. TR's resemble modern-day Bedouin or other desert dwellers with a gas mask-style face covering, if anything, and their costume is nowhere near what would be needed for a stilsuit designed to prevent water loss.

The stilsuits of De Laurentis' film were actually very good, and if anything only lacked the head coverings Herbert mentioned in the book. But that was probably artistic license, as well as De Laurentis' need to make sure that the star-studded cast of Dune could be recognized by the audience. The stilsuits of the more recent Sci-Fi channel miniseries were actually pretty good; if there were any problems, it was probably the limited special-effects budget they apparantly had.

Besides... notice how the TR costumes aren't too different from the clothing worn by Uncle Owen and Luke. When you're in the desert, you have to dress a certain way to survive, but it doesn't mean your clothing will automatically keep you from losing water either.

5)The Galactic Empire of Palpatine and the Empire of the Padishahs. While in Children of Dune the Empire is described as "multi galactic" with a population of "mega-trillions", I'm sure you see my point.

Significant difference, though, is that there are no intelligent alien species in the Dune series until millenia after Leto II's death, and then only when descendents of the Diaspora return and start to conquer the known universe.

Also significant are the cultural differences. You don't find computers of any sort in the Dune universe, thanks to the Butlerian Jihad; even the sparring dummy that Alia fights in Dune Messiah is nothing more than a collection of gears, levers, and other mechanical parts, which simply move faster every time the machine undergoes a mechanically-induced reset condition one (i.e. touch to the main body -- as opposed to reset condition two, where the shutdown button is pressed). Had 3PO and R2 crash-landed on Arrakis, they would have been smashed to bits and a new Jihad declared, since machine intelligence was banned.

Note too that, until the Bene Tleilaxu skirted the machine AI ban and invented their navsystems, and until the BT's also learned to use their "clone vats" to generate spice as well, FTL travel in the Dune universe depended on the collected shit from giant worms on 1 planet in the entire universe... as opposed to the SW universe, where even a backwater planet like Tattooine will have spare hyperdrive parts for a large number of ships (even a Nubian... ).

6)Time scale. Both Empires are approximately 25,000 years old.

Which just means they're both old. The difference is, Dune is supposed to be our part of the universe, and there's a big timeframe in between modern-day and the beginning of the reign of the Padishah Emperors.

In contrast, SW takes place "in a galaxy far, far, away", and "a long, long time ago" -- setting it not only well into our own past, but also so far away that it's probably outside the known portion of the Dune universe as well.

And actually, the Empire isn't 25,000 years old. Even the Old Republic was only about 10,000 years old, IIRC. The Empire hasn't even come into being yet, and it's only about 25 or so years from AOTC to ANH. Palpatine's Empire only lasted about 30+ years; in terms of scale, Palpatine's Empire compares to the Padishah Empire as 2 weeks compares to the first 30 years of Palpatine's Empire.

And as a final note. In Heretics of Dune, Frank Herbert describes a trio of luxury woods employed as status symbols in the Old Empire.
Those of lesser means employ plastic simulations. These plastics all begin with "PO".
The three POs are cheap plastic imitations. Poor Threepio, how insulting.

thank bog for my asbestos clothing

Per my copy of Heretics of Dune, it was copyright 1984. That's 1 year after ROTJ was released. Perhaps Herbert was trying to throw some pop culture in there by making a veiled reference to C-3PO... but due to the time frame, it would be Herbert ripping off Lucas, not Lucas ripping off Herbert.

That isn't to say that there aren't perhaps some similarities between Dune and SW. Both are epic sci-fi/fantasy works that needed more than 1 novel/movie to fully expand upon their complexity. Both draw quite a bit from our mythology and human behavior in their characterizations. Both also have strong savior/heroes who, in order to fulfill their destinies, end up making great sacrifices, including the loss of the father-figure (twice for Luke). Both also have heroes falling from grace (Alia and Annakin), as well as strong-willed mothers and female characters (Padme and Leia, Jessica and numerous others). But I think this is due more to Lucas and Herbert dipping into the same wellsprings that have always produced great works, rather than one copying off the other. Even Shakespeare and Tolkien based their masterpieces on the familiar and the well-known, but crafting its presentation so that the perspective and viewpoint were fresh and new.

[Lord Poe]

Star Wars borrowed heavily from Akira Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress", and Lucas openly admits this. There are a lot of Flash Gordon references as well, such as the scrolling text at the beginning of the movies, and Queen Amidala's communications screen.

[Peregrin Toker]

Star Wars borrowed heavily from Akira Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress", and Lucas openly admits this. There are a lot of Flash Gordon references as well, such as the scrolling text at the beginning of the movies, and Queen Amidala's communications screen.

I thought that Lucas originally wanted to make a Flash Gordon movie, but had to invent his own universe when he found out that Dino de Laurentiis had secured the rights for Flash Gordon!

FLASH!! A-aah! Savioooor.......... of the universe!

[Tosho]

The logic behind the LOTR theory is this,

obi-wan kenobi:Old White guy with a beard,
gone at the end of the first movie,
back in a more powerful form in the other 2 movies.

Gandalf:Old white guy with a beard, gone at the end of the first book, back in a more powerful form in the other 2 books.

[greenmm]

The logic behind the LOTR theory is this,

obi-wan kenobi:Old White guy with a beard,
gone at the end of the first movie,
back in a more powerful form in the other 2 movies.

Gandalf:Old white guy with a beard, gone at the end of the first book, back in a more powerful form in the other 2 books.

Kenobi's crack about being "more powerful" may have been either grandstanding. Even though we see Kenobi appearing to Yoda and Luke, we don't see him actually directly using the Force to manipulate the physical universe around him. If he was all that powerful, why not simply take out the Emperor instead of waiting for Luke to be trained?

Alternately, perhaps he meant that, as a spirit, his ability to help Luke and thus contribute to their bid to overthrow the Emperor and restore the Jedi would be unable to be resisted by Vader or the Emperor. Power, in this sense, being more that Vader would be rendered powerless to stop Kenobi, as opposed to Kenobi's power becoming greater.

[Lord Pounder]

oops i shouldn't have said that, but Frank pissed me off big style, he pitted my favourite movies as a rip-off my favourite books. thats a low blow. But you have to admit there are certain similarities between LOTR and Star Wars. Dark Lord you never see to the end? Young boy taken abruptly from his home? mmmm really short ppl in cloaks?

OkOK i'm losing this debate. half the battle is knowing when ur fecked.

[greenmm]

oops i shouldn't have said that, but Frank pissed me off big style, he pitted my favourite movies as a rip-off my favourite books. thats a low blow. But you have to admit there are certain similarities between LOTR and Star Wars. Dark Lord you never see to the end? Young boy taken abruptly from his home? mmmm really short ppl in cloaks?

OkOK i'm losing this debate. half the battle is knowing when ur fecked.

Similarities, to be sure, but probably due more to both authors dipping into ancient mythology for standard storylines and ideas, then giving them a fresh twist and a few tweaks to adapt them to a modern audience.

But even if Lucas did borrow some ideas from Tolkien... they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And it's a tribute to Lucas that he could make an "imitation" that was just as appealing as the original. How often does that happen in modern movies?

[Lord Sauron-Tyranus-Vader]

oops i shouldn't have said that, but Frank pissed me off big style, he pitted my favourite movies as a rip-off my favourite books. thats a low blow. But you have to admit there are certain similarities between LOTR and Star Wars. Dark Lord you never see to the end? Young boy taken abruptly from his home? mmmm really short ppl in cloaks?

OkOK i'm losing this debate. half the battle is knowing when ur fecked.

Similarities, to be sure, but probably due more to both authors dipping into ancient mythology for standard storylines and ideas, then giving them a fresh twist and a few tweaks to adapt them to a modern audience.

But even if Lucas did borrow some ideas from Tolkien... they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And it's a tribute to Lucas that he could make an "imitation" that was just as appealing as the original. How often does that happen in modern movies?

Believe me, not often.

[Slartibartfast]

1)Tattooine=Arrakis.

A dirt ball in the Back end of Nowhere for its entire life and existance VS the Seat of an Empire and the producer of a product everyone must have?
The only thing they share between them is sand...

2)Vaporators=Dew precipitators

Thats how one gets water out of the air, Guess the ones in real life are a rip off of dune as well eh?

3)Kessel Spice=Melange. Without the EU, what are we to think of that?

Lets see a otherwise harmless photoactive substance produced deep underground by ENERGY SPIDERS?! VS A Dangerious Substance that must be consumed for a lifetime or die and in certian people gives them vison abilitys

4)Stormtroopers=Saudakar. Soldier fanatics of the Emperor by any other name....

The Saudakar are not Clones of Jango Fett are they? Nor do they drop Lasguns at first opertiunity and go Hand to Hand oh and they wear effective armor(Damn Stormy armor with Dune style shielding? They would be untoucable)

5)Spice smugglers=Spice smugglers.

Guess 12th Century Spice Smugglers where a rip off of Dune as well and don't forget all those fakers during the 3rd Century in China
All stolen from Dune I tells ya!

1)Luke Skywalker and Paul Atreides. One is a farmboy, the other's a scion of nobility, but, they're both youngsters of destiny and martial arts prowess.

Luke? Paaa it was not until the Emperor reborn trained him he was acutal a good swordsman, he was fighting a stiff in a suit, Samual could have taken Vadar apart in a sword fight in under eight seconds not to mention Maul!(God he would have kick Luke's ass so easily)

2)The Jedi and the Bene Gesserit. They're both ancient schools dedicated to keeping peace in their respective galaxies. The Jedi are pro-active, the BG are arbitrators.

Pah agian! Bene Gesserit are master planers, the Jedi are bumbling Judges(Towards the End anyway, before they where just smart Judges)
Thats not even similar, If you want somthing similar Try the Second Foundationers

3)Swordsmanship features prominently in both sagas.

To a point...

4)Fremen and Tusken Raiders. If you just go by verbal descrptions, the TR costumes could make a more convincing robed Fremen in stillsuit than has been portrayed in the actual Dune films.

The Tuskens however do not live in Cave Warriens they live on the Sands 24/7 and are not human(Nor are they good fighters)

5)The Galactic Empire of Palpatine and the Empire of the Padishahs. While in Children of Dune the Empire is described as "multi galactic" with a population of "mega-trillions", I'm sure you see my point.

Palpatine's Empire truely WAS an Empire not the Padishah's kinda Empire that was FOREVER at the measry of the Guild Navagators and was not even strongly settled

6)Time scale. Both Empires are approximately 25,000 years old.

Acutal the SW Empires are even older, 25k Marks the Fall since Xim the Despot the last of the Despot Rules, An unknow period before the Galaxy was united under tryannical rulers

This is the best spelling I've seen in a post from Mr. Bean!

[Vendetta]

Star Wars, the plot of the film, is a near scene for scene remake of The Hidden Fortress with Alec Guinness instead of Toshiro Mifune.

The premise is the same - Rebel princess carrying great secret through enemy territory to hidden base.
All four of the central characters are directly parallelled in Star Wars, the princess, the general, and the two bickering peasants (R2 and 3PO)
And the escape from the Death Star is a direct take of the scene in THF where the characters escape from an enemy checkpoint whilst the guards are disracted by Mifune duelling their boss.

Lucas has acknowledged that this was the inspiration for the plot
(outside of the usual recurring thematic elements that are in almost everything, see The Hero With A Thousand Faces).