Insider #84's Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic

[Clone Sergeant]

Exactly. It's important to read the other sections of the article to understand exactly how and why that 3 million + clone troopers were able to fight against the droid armies.

You will begin to understand the amazing power of one clone soldier against the Separatist droids.

Behold the beginning of clone trooper fan boy wank.

[Clone Sergeant]

Her's is certainly a moronic statement to make, but it won't stop me from supporting her work. This aside (although it is a big issue) her book(s) are far more gritty, believable, and realistically descriptive than many other EU writers. Besides, it's not like any other current EU author would say or write anything different, especially if it went against the edict of LFL. Still, it is disappointing. I actually emailed her about it, and all I got was a referal to the TF.n response. Shame.

The simple fact of the matter for me is that if Traviss is so willing to play so fast and loose with this issue, who knows what other nonsensical bullshit will turn up in future books and articles. My respect for her intellect went down quite few pegs after that statement.

[Clone Sergeant]

FYI, re: 3 million.

LFL was very clear to us that no fixed number of total clones would or could be assigned.

Therefore, the number 3 million (plus) does not represent the entire fighting force.

Good, we can disregard the inane figure, but it still begs the question why you even thought for a minute 3 million was even remotely enough to fight a galactic scale war.

[Noble Ire]

My respect for her intellect went down quite few pegs after that statement.

True. Still, an author's personal opinions, views, or motives do not always affect the quality of their work. Look at Mel Gibson, or Tom Cruise. I was perfectly happy with her last book, and if Triple Zero isn't bogged down in minimalism or anti-SOD, then I'll probably enjoy it too.

More from TF.n, and a possible glimmer of hope.

FYI, re: 3 million.

LFL was very clear to us that no fixed number of total clones would or could be assigned.

Therefore, the number 3 million (plus) does not represent the entire fighting force.

Ambigous numbers are better than definate, bad ones I suppose.

Edit: Crap, too slow.

[Clone Sergeant]

Ambigous numbers are better than definate, bad ones I suppose.

That's exactly what I meant in my OP. If they had stayed away from the exact troop numbers issue they would have had a much better article. Other than the absurd 3 million figure it was pretty good.

[Master of Ossus]

These people are beneath contempt. There's ABSOLUTELY no justification for this. If this person is a "real life military expert," how many fucking Navy SEALS did it take to take to hold a frickin GOVERNOR'S MANSION on Grenada? Now, how many SEALS would it have taken to secure and hold ALL OF IRAQ? In the end, it doesn't matter how good the fucking clones are: killing 200 droids/clone amounts to taking less than a drop out of the world's oceans, and we didn't see anything like a 200:1 kill ratio in any of the films. These writers are BEYOND moronic, and if I ever posted there I wouldn't bother to hold my contempt for their idiocy.

[Master of Ossus]

As an illustration of how retarded any real life military expert would have to be to advocate these numbers, let's be generous and assume they were using the short-scale notation when they talked about the droid numbers, and that by "quadrillions" they meant 2 quadrillion.

10^15 droids/3 million clones=6E9 droids/clone.

If we can roughly equate one droid as being as strong as one modern American soldier, this is the equivalent of saying that one clone could hold down the equivalent of the entire US Army, with reserves, times TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED TIMES. Let me say that again, this "real life military expert" is claiming that one clone could hold the fort if faced off with two thousand five hundred US militaries in the field for a period of six months. Man, oh, man. If we had even one of these guys we could take and hold Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon... hell the ENTIRE PLANET doesn't have 6E9 people of military age. If, heaven forbid, one little lost clone trooper ever landed on Earth we may as well just surrender the entire place immediately.

And why was Obi-Wan even on Utapau? With troops like these, who needs Jedi? It's not like there could've been 6E9 droids there. In fact, even if we accept the ludicrous claims that one squad can take and hold a planet, reliably, they still wouldn't APPROACH the kind of mad skillz that they would actually need to turn this war into something resembling a fair fight (assuming that each planet has a military force<24 billion droids).

But the clones are good, are they? They're killing 200 droids/clone? Well I think they must've forgotten a couple of zeroes on that figure, 'cause that's the equivalent of about 1/30,000,000 of what they're going to need to do in order to take out the droids. So the clone leadership is much better than the droid army's? Can the clone leadership account for being a 100X force multiplier? You're still looking at every clone being magically able to tie down SIX MILLION DROIDS SINGLE-HANDEDLY. I don't care how damn incompetent the droid army leadership is, it is not possible for any military to squander this kind of a numerical advantage.

What's even more ridiculous is how good the Jedi would have to be. If the clones can school about 6 million droids each (ie. Just about taking on the entire Red Army during WWII), and the Jedi can mess up the clone troopers (at least in small numbers), then you're talking about guys who are the equivalent of tens of billions of soldiers in the field. King Leonidas eat your heart out--a Jedi would've walked out of that battle totally unscathed, having single-handedly trounced the entire Persian Army. Clone Wars cartoons don't even BEGIN to approach this level of military prowess. I hadn't realized that the Clone Wars cartoons were deliberate efforts to tone-down the skills and talents of the Jedi. I thought they were looking pretty cool in that show. I was wrong. It was nothing compared to what they can ACTUALLY do in the field.

It's one thing to suspend belief for things like technology and lightsabers, but can anyone seriously argue these points? Can anyone claim, with a straight face, that one clone trooper is easily enough to take down the US military several hundreds of times over? That is the line that they're asking us to swallow. The point of this text was to explain the clone army, and to give people a sense of the Clone Wars and to maintain suspension of disbelief by explaining the conflict in a gritty, realistic fashion. The numbers that were chosen did the exact opposite. Rather than making the Clone Wars feel gritty, realistic, and powerful, they made the conflict into a a game. Guys playing Quake on God-mode could run around for a long time before they approached the level of domination required for the clones in such a tiny army to make any difference. Sorry to say this, but these authors did not do their jobs well. No one can look at the evidence here presented and say with a straight face that any of this makes any sense, inside or outside of continuity. Numbers like these remove all sense of the epic struggle that the Clone Wars appeared to be in the films, and it is with great sadness that I see authors continue to denigrate and disrespect the fans by signing their names to things as ill-thought out and offensive as the ideas published in that article.

Feel free to post this where the authors will see them. Tell them that they can reach me at masterofossus-at-yahoo.com if they have any questions or concerns about my "findings," or if they're still delusional enough to believe these numbers to be sufficient.

[Old Plympto]

I'm wondering if LFL (or someone in it) strongarmed Traviss into accepting this extreme minimalism in clone numbers, or at the very least accept the fact the "it's Star Wars, it doesn't have to be realistic" dogma.

[Master of Ossus]

I'm wondering if LFL (or someone in it) strongarmed Traviss into accepting this extreme minimalism in clone numbers, or at the very least accept the fact the "it's Star Wars, it doesn't have to be realistic" dogma.

What I find unbelievable about the whole LucasBooks/Film/Morons thing is that they see no difference between asking people to accept a fantastic premise and asking them to accept totally unreasonable consequences of that premise. Once you set up a premise in stories, you basically sign a contract with the reader that says, "Okay, you accept these basic things and the internal logic will hold up and the story will make sense." The Lucas corporations apparently ignore this entirely and say, "You accept the premise... then you accept things that do not at ALL flow from that premise... then you accept things which are totally impossible even after you've accepted the premise and the story might be entertaining but even then it won't make any sense."

[Noble Ire]

Ossus, I posted your arguement in the thread. I hope you don't mind a singular edit I made to make sure there were no "OMG!!1! He s4id Retardz!!1!" posts.

[Jim Raynor]

Hell, even the databank at SW.com refutes this stupid crap about incompetent CIS leadership:

Link (emphasis mine)

When the greedy corporate titans and the disenfranchised systems of the galaxy pooled their resources together to leave the aging Galactic Republic behind, they became the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Their military assets formed a droid army of seemingly limitless size -- a weapon that needed a military mastermind to be wielded effectively.

From within the ranks of the Confederacy came General Grievous, a brilliant strategist unhindered by compassion or scruples. His lightning strikes and effective campaigns caused his reputation to grow in the eyes of a frightened Republic. To many, he eclipsed the threat posed by Count Dooku, the charismatic leader of the Confederacy's political battlefields -- Grievous was the face of the enemy.

Following that bloody debut, scattered reports along the HoloNet told of numerous successes in the Office of the General's campaigns against the Republic. Grievous led a stab into the Republic's inner systems along the Corellian Trade Spine, conquering world after world. When Duro fell to a concentrated Confederacy attack, the insulated Core Worlds trembled in fear of what the General was able to achieve.

Why would the freaking CORE of the Republic tremble in fear if they had such l33t troops on their side?

[Cyborg Stan]

Well, it's a pinprick compared to the tidal wave above, but I might as well add/ask a few minor things :

How well would an 'island hopping' strategy work? It's not like it would be easy to block off systems, given that there's three dimensions rather than two to work with. Furthermore, it's very easy for even largish ships to land. (See Coursant at the end of AotC, or the Core parts of the Trade-Fed battle-cargo-freighters.)

On top of this, the speed of hyperdrive makes it so that far-flung reaches of the galaxy can be reached in hours. Heck, it may actually take more time to load up a transport than for it to travel to it's destination. Given this, how can a few key systems be expected to hold large portions of the galaxy? Given how fast droid troops can deploy (visions of the transports from TPM come to mind) what's to prevent them from loading up say, 5 (Much more generous than the 3e9, I can assure you.) transports, hitting 5 worlds at once and then setting up defensive positions while the clone's transport is still loading? Yet we're supposed to also expect the clones to somehow be able to attack and defend at the same time...

[apocolypse]

I'm wondering if LFL (or someone in it) strongarmed Traviss into accepting this extreme minimalism in clone numbers, or at the very least accept the fact the "it's Star Wars, it doesn't have to be realistic" dogma.

Actually, Kaufman said "FYI, re: 3 million.

LFL was very clear to us that no fixed number of total clones would or could be assigned.

Therefore, the number 3 million (plus) does not represent the entire fighting force. "

It seems LFL isn't actually behind this retardedly low number, and to be honest they appear to be backpeddling from it somewhat now. IMO, this isn't the approach they seemed to be taking at the begining.

[Noble Ire]

On top of this, the speed of hyperdrive makes it so that far-flung reaches of the galaxy can be reached in hours. Heck, it may actually take more time to load up a transport than for it to travel to it's destination. Given this, how can a few key systems be expected to hold large portions of the galaxy? Given how fast droid troops can deploy (visions of the transports from TPM come to mind) what's to prevent them from loading up say, 5 (Much more generous than the 3e9, I can assure you.) transports, hitting 5 worlds at once and then setting up defensive positions while the clone's transport is still loading? Yet we're supposed to also expect the clones to somehow be able to attack and defend at the same time...

This all depends on where your talking about. Certainly, in certain sectors and along certain hyperspace lanes (which can be mined) massively long jumps can be made in hours or even hours. However, other areas, either less well traveled or more congested with stellar matter, make hyperspace travel far less effecient (days to weeks travel time.) But nevertheless, considering how much of the war was fought in established parts of the galaxy (excluding the last few months, "Outer Rim sieges") this hopping strategy really wouldn't work with fewer than billions of clones, even if the GAR fleet is superior to the CIS, which it may be.

[Fire Fly]

Is the 3 000 000 in reference to purely combat troops or both combat and logistics? Reading what was given, I would surmise that the number was purely combant troops. But then, we see in ROTS that clones also play support roles and policing roles.

[Clone Sergeant]

Is the 3 000 000 in reference to purely combat troops or both combat and logistics? Reading what was given, I would surmise that the number was purely combant troops. But then, we see in ROTS that clones also play support roles and policing roles.

According to the Order of Battle, it was the average full strength of the Grand Army of the Republic. It doesn't say what proportion of the number is combat or support. Traviss and Kaufman claim that the issue of logistics is an issue they would have liked to have gone in greater detail about had the article been larger. But it doesn't make that much of difference anyway since 3 million purely combat troops alone is a drop in the bucket compared to the Confederacy any way you slice it.

[Connor MacLeod]

On the plus side, let them deal with all the cloen wanking and minimalize it as much as you want, and have the majority of the Republican military formed of regular non-clone conscripts.

Geez, an army of decade-old clones has to be one of the goofier concepts from the prequels.

[VT-16]

If we follow the retarded claim of "Only clone crews" on Venators, then, judging by the beginning of the space battle over Coruscant (SW:CW), we'd have about 1 000 Venators times 7,400 crewmembers each = 7 400 000 clones. In. One. Battle.

[Lord Poe]

I love the little cocksucking Moderator flying off the handle at Brian Young while obviously tongue-kissing the asses of the visiting VIPs.

How do you say an experienced hunter CANNOT have a professional opinion with regard to firearms? Brian wasn't talking military weapons, but that was exactly his point! Brian's deer-hunting arsenal is a match for a clone trooper! Brian would NOT be a match for a Super Battledroid!

[The Grim Squeaker]

I love the little cocksucking Moderator flying off the handle at Brian Young while obviously tongue-kissing the asses of the visiting VIPs.

How do you say an experienced hunter CANNOT have a professional opinion with regard to firearms? Brian wasn't talking military weapons, but that was exactly his point! Brian's deer-hunting arsenal is a match for a clone trooper! Brian would NOT be a match for a Super Battledroid!

What are you talking about? What Deer hunter?

[Tychu]

I didnt get my issue #84 yet, im looking forward to see what cover i get, but i didnt get mine yet

When did yours arrive?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I love the little cocksucking Moderator flying off the handle at Brian Young while obviously tongue-kissing the asses of the visiting VIPs.

How do you say an experienced hunter CANNOT have a professional opinion with regard to firearms? Brian wasn't talking military weapons, but that was exactly his point! Brian's deer-hunting arsenal is a match for a clone trooper! Brian would NOT be a match for a Super Battledroid!

What are you talking about? What Deer hunter?

You don't know what deer hunting is? Brian Young is aparently a deer hunter.

I don't see where there's anything to get confused about.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Grand Army: 10 Systems Armies+ additional troops and units. Commanded by the Supreme Chancellor. Strength: plus or minus 3,000,000 men (I will discuss this number in the “Bad” section of my post.)

Systems Army: 2 Sector Armies. Strength: 294,912 men. Commanded by a High Jedi General (Jedi Council Member.)

Sector Army: 4 Corps. Strength: 147,456 men. Commanded by a Senior Jedi General (Jedi Master).

Corps: 4 legions. Strength: 36,864 men. Commanded by a Clone Marshal Commander and a Jedi General.

Legion/Brigade: 4 regiments. Strength: 9,216 men. Commanded by a Senior Clone Commander and a Jedi General.

Regiment: 4 Battalions. Strength: 2,304 men. Commanded by a Jedi Padawan Commander. (!)

Battalion: 4 companies. Strength: 576 men. Commanded by a Major.

Company: 4 platoons. Strength: 144 men. Commanded by a Captain.

Platoon: 4 squads Strength: 36 men. Commanded by a Lieutenant.

Squad: 9 men, commanded by a Sergeant.

Am I uh, the only one who suddenly realized that the Grand Army of the Republic apparently has no support troops? Even the ISB remembered to put some support troops... do they talk about support troops anywhere?

[VT-16]

Support troops = local systems militia? :S

[nightmare]

Actually, Kaufman said "FYI, re: 3 million.

LFL was very clear to us that no fixed number of total clones would or could be assigned.

Therefore, the number 3 million (plus) does not represent the entire fighting force. "

It seems LFL isn't actually behind this retardedly low number, and to be honest they appear to be backpeddling from it somewhat now. IMO, this isn't the approach they seemed to be taking at the begining.

I'm guessing they finally realized how brutal the odds are when they were presented with some numbers and found themselves in an undefendable position.