Suggest ways to refute 'the Triads are invincible' argument

corbomite · Post by **corbomite** » 2002-11-05 12:05pm

While I don't have any beef on B5, some of the B5ers at SB.com are really annoying me with the 'Triads are invincible' and that 'the only thing that limits them is their will' argument. To anyone that isn't a rabid B5er it's obvious that there ARE limits to their power. Now, how would you refute this argument if it's even possible to get through their heads?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-11-05 12:34pm

LEt me guess, Adarx and Elizar/Dark Lord? And they're claiming that the Triad is comparable to the Culture?

I don't suppose they mentioned that Wars of the Ancients infers that their abilities, while allowing them to create "avatars" (constructs such as encounter suits, starships, etc.) from matter, is limited by the fact that its "difficult" for the Tri to do so (i believe it mentions this), and that they cannot do so indefinitely (they have finite energy reserves, which while they may be immense, limit the duration of any constructs or fleets they create.)

Besides that, did they mention that unless the Tri is there to maintain the constructs, they eventually will be reduced to the component elements they were created from? (IE they aren't permanant objects)

Did they mention the Triad cannot create life in this fashion, only simulate it? (life is considered "too complex")

I don't suppose they mention exerting themselves to create and maintain these fleets tires them?

If you can give me specific examples of their claims, I can check on them for information, since I have the sources they no doubt quote. (And I can tell you now, they're more than likely exaggerating most of it.)

corbomite · Post by **corbomite** » 2002-11-05 12:50pm

No, in fact they're saying that they could beat the Culture.

Here are some of their quotes:

What research? They were simply born as they are now. With infinite range on their abilites, so they wouldn't need to do research as they are 'everywhere' in a sense. They have never had to explore as stated, since they already knew everything about the universe which as I said made any point in doing so moot. Why wouldn't they if they're connected everywhere and only limited by themselves, as again.... annoyingly stated again. Why faster than the culture since speed would also be in the realm of power, and limited only by themselves. They can be as quick or as fast as they WANT.

They control energy/matter, yes? So if you were for example to shoot infinite energy/matter at them, why would that kill them? The very thing theyre in full control of. They could re-direct the weapon where they wanted, turn it into a shield for them, and use it to make the shield stronger... whatever they 'wanted'. And I can threaten you over the internet, would that matter to you? No because I cannot do anything despite my threats, best I can do is make you FEAR for your life. Hardly what you're making it.

"They were born immortal, and capable of stellar and extra-dimensional travel without need of a vessel. Able to create matter by drawing from their own essense [as in they convert energy to matter, and replenish themselves through various means], the limit of their power is simply their will."

"Against ancient Shadow ships, a tri has an effective rating of P20, and P10 against Promordial Shadows [this refers to telepathy]. Its range and arc are unlimited, since it is exerting its will from some safe haven [for example they may wish to be in another dimension] off of the board."

I already stated their range is unlimited and quoted it, what exactly is the problem? Done it in the other first ones thread, did it in older threads as well. Think faster? AGAIN, their only limit is their will. They think on terms of seeing eah atoms on universal scale. They move individual atoms from suns, hyperspace, matter etc. and form ships or whatever they want. They can destroy ships instantly if they wished. I mean a mere few grams has some 10^25 in atoms, and they deal with ship sizes and consider this playing. As in, the sheer thought process and speed to do such things is an insanely high number. As I said, all this was gone over multiple times both here, in the other thread on the main page and more, a thread made by me for this specific fight as Dark Lord, as I said.

They moved each atom individually with their concious thought from a sun, hyperspace etc. to form a fleet in minutes. This was when they were playing with the Vorlons. Think how many atoms there are in a pencil. Or recall Ironheart, who basically seems like a in some aspects Tri (although obviously below them) where he says he could turn the station to vapour in a stray thought. Although I would like to though how a culture mind thinking the Tri dead would actually yeild that result since any energy/matter used against them isn't really going to do anything, they could just feed off it.

And that's just the start.

corbomite · Post by **corbomite** » 2002-11-05 01:02pm

There was no mention of the Triad becoming exausted and of the fact that if they aren't there the constructs disappear.

They're getting worse. Next thing they'll be saying that the Triad could beat the Xeelee.1

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-11-05 02:46pm

What research? They were simply born as they are now. With infinite range on their abilites, so they wouldn't need to do research as they are 'everywhere' in a sense. They have never had to explore as stated, since they already knew everything about the universe which as I said made any point in doing so moot. Why wouldn't they if they're connected everywhere and only limited by themselves, as again.... annoyingly stated again. Why faster than the culture since speed would also be in the realm of power, and limited only by themselves. They can be as quick or as fast as they WANT.

Err.. that doesnt even quantify the fucking reaction times. Its some sort of semantics bullshit meant to avoid GIVING any precise answer while giving the impression they must.

I'm also wondering where they draw this notion that the Triad "knows" everything and is "everywhere." They DID have to explore:

Wars of the Ancients, page 43:

"It is known that the members of the Triad did not get along, and it wasn't very long before they left the direct tutelage of the original beings [Lorien and his people] to try and find their own answers.

They spent many centuries EXPLORING THE GALAXY."

Same page: "The three Aspects of the Triad (Order, Chaos, and Neutrality) dealt with these conflitcs differently, but the goals were almost always the same; to teach the younger race and to perhaps LEARN something themselves."

They were never stated to be omniscient.

They control energy/matter, yes? So if you were for example to shoot infinite energy/matter at them, why would that kill them? The very thing theyre in full control of. They could re-direct the weapon where they wanted, turn it into a shield for them, and use it to make the shield stronger... whatever they 'wanted'. And I can threaten you over the internet, would that matter to you? No because I cannot do anything despite my threats, best I can do is make you FEAR for your life. Hardly what you're making it.

Essentially they are immortal, but this doesn't give them near-infinite matter/energy control capabilities. More semantics dodging.

Page 43 again: "Their psychic abilities are so advanced they are able to manipulate matter andenergy at the sub-atomic level, converting one into another with just a thought.

These efforts are, of course, very difficult, and they can tire quickly. The more complicated the patterns being formed, the more strain placed on the Tri's will. The subtleties involved in creating even the most simple life forms through this direct method are beyond the Triad, and they have never been known to reporduce through the less complicated methods."

Same page: "Not complicated enough to be considered a life form, these constructs are best thought of as extremely complicated toys which are wound up and set against an opposing force. Without a Tri there to continually wind them, the constructs would eventually collapse back into the base matter from which they were derived (although this may take some time.)

Page 44: "All systems aboard a Triad vessel function with an efficiency beyond comprehension to any non-Transcendental Being. There is a finite amount of energy present, however, so all ship systems operate in game terms as normal, with power requirements noted in diamonds the usual way."

Same page: "Just because there is no crew, it doesn't mean that the intelligence running the ship doesn't get overwhelmed."

Same page: "It is exhausting for a Tri to maintain control over a sizable fleet for an extended period of time. It may not be able to continually rebuild what it has created (limited by regular and Structure self-repair.) so it may simply lose a battle. When this happens, the Tri attempts to absorb any matter left over from its destroyed creations, usually ocntent that it has taught the young race some valuable lesson, and it moves on."

If they could handle infinite amounts of energy, they wouldn't be getting tired. The fact they CAN be strained whiel manipulating energy (and Matter) automatically places a limit on their energy/matter handling capabilities, although we aren't yet given specifics.

For that matter, most of these quotes debunk "alot" fo teh abilities attributed to the Triad by those fanatical Fivers.

"They were born immortal, and capable of stellar and extra-dimensional travel without need of a vessel. Able to create matter by drawing from their own essense [as in they convert energy to matter, and replenish themselves through various means], the limit of their power is simply their will."

And as mentioned, there are finite limits on Triad capabilities because they can tire themselves, or exhaust their will if you prefer. This in no way makes them omnipotent and/or means they are only limited by what they choose to limit themselves to. (they can choose to limit themselves, but they cannot exceed what would strain their will.)

"Against ancient Shadow ships, a tri has an effective rating of P20, and P10 against Promordial Shadows [this refers to telepathy]. Its range and arc are unlimited, since it is exerting its will from some safe haven [for example they may wish to be in another dimension] off of the board."

Page 45:

Triad Telepathy

Triad vessels are unmanned automatons, and therefore never contain a telepath. Each Tri is a powerful psychic being, however, anbd may exert control over a Shadow vessel. Against Ancient Shadow ships, a Tri has an effecitve rating of P20 and P10 against Primordial Shadows. Its range and arc are unlimited, since it is exerting its will from some safe haven off the board."

This is referring only to telepathic attacks against Shadow vessels. There's also some question about "unlimited" since its talking within context of game rules (and Fivers are often quick to toss out anything they dont like as "gameplay" - many frequently make such arbitrary distinctions like that.)

I already stated their range is unlimited and quoted it, what exactly is the problem? Done it in the other first ones thread, did it in older threads as well. Think faster? AGAIN, their only limit is their will. They think on terms of seeing eah atoms on universal scale. They move individual atoms from suns, hyperspace, matter etc. and form ships or whatever they want. They can destroy ships instantly if they wished. I mean a mere few grams has some 10^25 in atoms, and they deal with ship sizes and consider this playing. As in, the sheer thought process and speed to do such things is an insanely high number. As I said, all this was gone over multiple times both here, in the other thread on the main page and more, a thread made by me for this specific fight as Dark Lord, as I said.

Blah blah blah. We showed that their only unlimited in range in making telepathic attacks against Shadow vessels. We showed their "will" has finite capacity, and that they can only manipulate matter and energy so long as they aren't tired.

I love how they reach from "doing certain things within certain limits" to "doing anything they wished and nothing is beyond their abilities." They don't provide any sort of figures or math to substantiate their claims EVER, (Because no such numbers exist), and so on. The ability to see on the subatomic/atomic level, the ability to individually move atoms, etc. do not confer insanely high reaction times. (They CAN draw matter/energy from various sources, including stars, hyperspace, etc. - but to my knowledge any timeframe attached to this is never stated - which is why they avoid stating any numbers.)

BTW that "moving atoms from suns" - did they cite where that is from (I know they've been citing the author of the B5 Wars materials, who is not canon - only the books are

Authors can only clarify their works unless they directly own/control teh universe, as Lucas does.)

They moved each atom individually with their concious thought from a sun, hyperspace etc. to form a fleet in minutes. This was when they were playing with the Vorlons. Think how many atoms there are in a pencil. Or recall Ironheart, who basically seems like a in some aspects Tri (although obviously below them) where he says he could turn the station to vapour in a stray thought. Although I would like to though how a culture mind thinking the Tri dead would actually yeild that result since any energy/matter used against them isn't really going to do anything, they could just feed off it.

Where the hell are they pulling this "each atom from a sun" bullshit? They created it from energy in hyperspace and later reinforced it from the system's sun (no mention of matter being drawn, really.)

Anyhow, The Tri constructs "several" automatons, creating a fleet to match the Vorlons (which has "several large vessels, a few of moderate size, and quite many small ships that they do not even bother ot pilot themselves." Obviously they have two large vessels (dreadnaughts or cruisers) a few medium cruisers, light cruisers, or transports, and lots of fighters (First Ones never pilot their own fighters.) Maybe a few dozen ships that the Triad constructs a similar fleet to match - and this is considered a "difficult" task requiring several minutes to complete.

They fight, and the Tri "quickly" becomes exhauisted in fighting the Vorlons, and increases control over its larger vessels to start repairing the damage they inflicted (the Vorlons are proving to be quite a match, it seems.) The Tri attempts to concnetrate fire on the Vorlon's main vessel, but its concentration is taxed (where's this infinite will again?) and it is are unable to accurately hit the vessel (at least with concentrated fire.)

After a very short time beyond this, the constructs can no longer be maintained, so they are releaed to "return the energy from which it was made to the univere."

Wow, That really IS proof of a near-omnipotent, all-knowing being. The Culture would have swatted the Vorlons in a nanosecond.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-11-05 03:05pm

BTW all the quotes came from the "Wars of the Ancients" supplement.

corbomite · Post by **corbomite** » 2002-11-05 10:07pm

Thanks.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-11-05 10:29pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:is limited by the fact that its "difficult" for the Tri to do so (i believe it mentions this), and that they cannot do so indefinitely (they have finite energy reserves, which while they may be immense, limit the duration of any constructs or fleets they create.)

God Damnit, I must have asked them that exact question five or six times, and never got a response. Fuckers.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-11-07 11:05am

Fuck me!

And these are the omnipitants that are supposed to defeat the fucking Chaos Gods and C'tan!

A bloody DAEMON created a fleet of thousands in a similar way to a Triad...

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2002-11-07 01:08pm

IIRC they said sometime ago that this Triad could, in essence, go up against Xeelee.
But I never believed in those over-rated abilities of the Triad

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-11-07 01:21pm

Hmm...aw, what the hell...

Triad vs. The Capital D

Bring it.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2002-11-07 04:58pm

Reminds me of some of the religious arguments I've
heard. (Oddly enough, the main proponent of this
viewpoint is atheist, yet he retains all of the...err...
"interesting" perspective of someone like Pat
Robertson.)

This in particular is funny:

What research? They were simply born as they are now. With infinite range on their abilites,

If they were truly infinite, they wouldn't be born at all.

I have this argument with my father sometime in a different
form. He's much more religious than I am, and holds that
an evil person will spend "eternity in hell" because that's
what he's been brought up to believe.

Believe it or not, he's actually a pretty smart guy, just
brainwashed.

Anyway, I told him, "That makes no sense. Eternity
is ALL time. Hitler, for example, would have to spend
the time before he was born, the time he was alive,
and THEN all of the time after he was dead to 'burn'
for eternity."

Then I start in on the New Testament descriptions of
God wherein it's said He's all about love and forgiveness,
which is incompatible with damning even an axe murderer
for ETERNITY. But that's another argument

All of that gibberish is creamed by Mr. MacLeod's *faithful*
(haha, pun intended

) representation of what the text
really says. To get in-context quotes from the Fivers
is oftentimes extraordinarily difficult.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-11-08 02:20pm

Has Adarx begun frothing at the mouth with indignation and denied he ever lied? Or is he calling me a liar

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-11-08 03:53pm

"I concentrate again. I notice a strong whirlpool nearby through a dimensional wall to Hyperspace. I am able to pull some of the energy contained in that storm through the wall, into this dimension. I can manipulate that energy into other forms, and choose to construct several automatons with which I will confront the Vorlons.

This is a difficult task, and takes several minutes to complete. I am forced to draw power from this system's star after I deplete the whirlpool. The Vorlons have brought with them several large vessels, a few of moderate size, and quite many small ships that they do not even bother to pilot themselves. I belive that I can construct a similar amount of automatons, and build them up behind the moon while shielding them from the Vorlon's crude sensors.

I send another electromagnetic message, repeating my request. They decline once more, so I send the automatons against them.

Quickly, I become exhausted. The Vorlons seem to be quite capable creatures in the realm of destruction. I intensify my control over some of my larger constructs, and use the ability I've built into them to stitch themelves back together when damaged. I have the automatons fire at the Vorlons' main vessel, but my concentration is taxed and I am unable to guide the brilliant beams onto the target.

After a very short time, I cannot maintain the constructs any longer, so I release them. I always enjoy the sight of one of my constructions returning the energy from which it was made back to the universe, but this time it looked as if the Vorlons may have enjoyed it more."

----

-Excerpt dealing with the battle of the Triad aspect of ORder against the Vorlons.

Wars of the Ancients, page 2.

corbomite · Post by **corbomite** » 2002-11-09 08:05pm

Adarx just seems to be peeved.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-11-10 12:05am

Introduce the Q, and game over

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-11-10 12:25am

One more thing: "It had been centuries since any of the Triad had formed a construct that was anything otehr than the newest Triumviron, and they found that they no longer could find the energy. Humbly, they would support the newest war effort from their single craft."

Wars of the Ancients, page 43

I guess they need practice

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2002-11-11 12:21am

corbomite wrote:Adarx just seems to be peeved.

What else is new?

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-11-27 12:34am

I just found this earlier and feel I should post it here.

Link

Got a response from the author of Wars of the Ancients regarding the Walker/Triad battle. Here it is.

'Specifically, the captain and crew of the Sigma 957 vessel, "The Wanderer", were the ones to actually harm a member of the Triad. The Aspect of Chaos had taken a particular interest in them, and was becoming quite a annoyance.

The reason no one has been able to hurt a Tri is that no one ever fights a Tri. The Tri itself is always off-map. In this case, the crew of the Wanderer was able to temporarily disable a Tri by jumping-in an unmanned Guideship with it's Energy Draining Field shunted into its Extra Dimensional Jump Drive. The Guideship entered real space in close proximity to the Aspect of Chaos, and self destructed, draining massive amounts of energy from the Tri.

A huge Walker fleet then jumped in (hidden in a particularly odd alternate dimension that the Tri wasn't paying attention to), and fired volley after volley of Energy Draining Mines. The captain of the Wanderer had correctly theorized that the Triad can absorb the energy of any weapon fired at them, so the best way to hurt them is to remove energy.

After its initial surprise, the Aspect of Chaos beat a hasty retreat.

You should assume that this kind of tactic is in the category with most of the goofy stuff Sheridan pulls that doesn't really fit the game mechanics. Actually, the Wanderer itself was the result of my desire to put personality into the Ancient races, something that a title character would bring. Therefore they have several special rules, available in a back issue of Babcom, I believe.

Also, there are rules for playing a member of the Triad in B5 Wars. It's not pretty, especially if you don't have energy draining weaponry. They don't absorb all of the damage inflicted on them, but they do absorb most of it. I was planning on including it in whatever venue the Ancient bases and variants go out in. We'll have to see.

Thank you for the interest.

Matt'

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-11-27 03:48pm

Adarx never did really address these challenges, did he? I guess he felt no particular reason to defend his arguments against the truth (or was afraid of being found out.)

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-28 01:52pm

I'm still waiting for him to refute what I posted about his claims.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-29 12:39am

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=40451

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-11-29 12:42am

I copied and pasted a good deal of Conner's big post, as I don't know the stuff myself.

Post 1111

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-11-29 08:26am

Ender wrote:http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=40451

Damn. It's like a fucking merry-go-round with terminal dementia.