The Federation Would Fall in 0.025 seconds!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2005-09-11 06:43pm

This one is one of my all time ASVS posts; it took the absurdity of the trektards to it's logical ending point, I'm resurrecting it as a public service for you all

Newsgroups: alt.startrek.vs.starwars
Subject: The Federation would fall in .025 seconds! (WASRe: Piett plays 'Musical Idiocy!')
From: "Celes Knight" <celes@deskmedia.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:26:52 -0600

Paul Jacques HJR wrote:They had no way of knowing the Rebel's objective, or the fact that they had a force-user in their number - as Han said, the shot Luke made was against virtually impossible odds, so Tarkin did the correct thing if you look at the numbers.

Yes, I recall Han's words now. "Good shot kid, that was one in a million."
Paul thinks that every quote, no matter how vague or unspecified, must be
treated a 100% truth. And that even if what we see contradicts any
calculations, the calculations are correct. Forgive me, but I must use
Paul's so called 'logic' for a moment.

Luke (even though he was a Jedi) only had a 1 in exactly 1 million shot of
doing that. We can assume a Jedi is at least 10,000 times more likely to do
that than anyone else. We can also assume that only 1 in 10 million people
are Jedi. (Note how I didn't actually prove any of these assumptions, much
like Paul wouldn't. However, if I was ambitious like Paul, I could make
wild assumptions on other resources until I got these). Finally, let's
assume the odds of anyone getting through to the trench are 1 in 15. (Two
people got through out of 30 ships). Finally we know the Rebels send 30
ships.

Therefore, by Paul's logic, the change of the DS being destroyed was only 1
in exactly 5,000,000,000,000,000. Therefor , despite what we saw on the
screen, we can safely assume that Luke failed and the DS was not destroyed.

Also, if an attack like the rebels was done once per day, we can safely
assume that there is only a 0.000012% chance of the DS being destroyed in
the entire age of the Universe from the Big Bang to the end of time (I'm
guessing that would be about 60 billion years. Even if that isn't the right
length of time, I could go on a tirade about how SW doesn't obey the laws of
physics, therefor the length of the Universe would be 60 billion years.
This is more Timeout's logic than Paul's, but you get the general idea.)

Also, the Empire built a total of 5 DSs (if you include the ones in the
comics and books). Therefor there is practically no change that all of them
would be destroyed. Therefore we can assume the Federation could not
destroy them. Therefore the Empire would win.

Hmm, this is so fun, I'm going to continue. It was stated that the Falcon
could be halfway across the galaxy by in about 1 second. That's about 60000
lys a second or 1,893,456,000,000 times the speed of light. We can assume
the DS can do roughly that as well, so I'll round to 2,000,000,000,000.
Now the Federation consists of 150 worlds (from FC). Since it only takes a
week to get from Earth to the very distant Bajor (from The Search, Part
1), and even top warp speed is only 3000c, we can assume that the distance
is well under 60 lys. Therefor let's assume the distance between every
Federation world is about 50 lys (note how generous I am on this, surly most
of them are quite a bit closer.)

Therefor to blow up every Federation world, the DS would have to travel a
total of 7500 lys.

It could do this in about .125 seconds. So it would only take all 5 DSs
.025 seconds to blow up every world in the Federation.

Damn, Paul's logic is so fun! No wonder he refuses to use re[al]-world logic.

-Celes

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-09-11 11:07pm

That was...priceless.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-12 12:51am

Come on. The best quote to hit Trekkies over the head with is still from Phantom Menace, "Nothing can get through our shields".

CERC · Post by **CERC** » 2005-09-20 10:01am

LMAO, good one bud.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-09-21 05:06am

The thing is...sarcasm isnt funny if it could actually happen.

Manus Celer Dei · Post by **Manus Celer Dei** » 2005-09-21 03:38pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:The thing is...sarcasm isnt funny if it could actually happen.

Didn't the original Death Star need several hours to recharge?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-21 03:49pm

Manus Celer Dei wrote:
18-Till-I-Die wrote:The thing is...sarcasm isnt funny if it could actually happen.
Didn't the original Death Star need several hours to recharge?

And I don't know of any source that stated that a hyperspace-propelled craft could fly halfway cross the galaxy in a second. Depending on the route taken, it takes two weeks or more for a cross-galactic flight. And the Empire only built three DS's (four if you count the Tarkin.)

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2005-09-21 03:56pm

Noble Ire wrote: And I don't know of any source that stated that a hyperspace-propelled craft could fly halfway cross the galaxy in a second. Depending on the route taken, it takes two weeks or more for a cross-galactic flight. And the Empire only built three DS's (four if you count the Tarkin.)

Its dialogue taken directly from TESB. When the Falcon disappears from scans after its attached itself to the back of and ISD bridge tower, its said that if they've gone to hyperspace, they could be halfway across the galaxy by now, which was perhaps as much as 10 seconds after it happened. You can actually have as many as 11 Death Stars, if you assume the one in ROTS isn't the one in ANH and count both Eclipses and the four Sovereigns that were never completely finished.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-21 04:06pm

Its dialogue taken directly from TESB. When the Falcon disappears from scans after its attached itself to the back of and ISD bridge tower, its said that if they've gone to hyperspace, they could be halfway across the galaxy by now, which was perhaps as much as 10 seconds after it happened.

Ah yes, one bit of ambigious dialogue overrules an endless supply of canon, both movie and EU. Do you believe that Trek ships are totally invoulnerable to lasers and Voyager can blow a planet in half too?

You can actually have as many as 11 Death Stars, if you assume the one in ROTS isn't the one in ANH and count both Eclipses and the four Sovereigns that were never completely finished.

This makes sense in this particualr context (they all have planet-busting weapons) but from a design standpoint, there were really only three Imperial Death Stars (huge, planetoid-like space stations with a planet-buster.)

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-21 04:08pm

Edit: Sorry Quadlock, you seem to have been only citing the source of the quote, not advocating it (I hope.) I posted too quickly.

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2005-09-21 04:17pm

Noble Ire wrote:Edit: Sorry Quadlock, you seem to have been only citing the source of the quote, not advocating it (I hope.) I posted too quickly.

The point of the OP is that if you apply the standard of dialogue uber alles to Star Wars as some people do to Star Trek, it can result in some interesting things that do not reflect the bulk of the canon.

wilfulton · Post by **wilfulton** » 2005-09-21 10:09pm

I submit that if the Empire doesn't have precise calculations, and one of those Death Stars flies through a star or supernova, it could very easily end up taking as long as a minute to conquer the Federation. The Empire should take its time to make those calculations, so I'd say about 12.025 seconds.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-09-24 01:35am

Manus Celer Dei wrote:Didn't the original Death Star need several hours to recharge?

Yeah, it did. But the Empire could also just send a formation of its other lesser warships to every Federation world, and have them conduct mass orbital bombardments. It would work just as well, and would leave the Federation with nothing but its scattered ships in a matter of hours. But its pretty unlikely the Empire would engage in such pointless total destruction.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2005-09-24 09:47am

Darth Servo wrote:Come on. The best quote to hit Trekkies over the head with is still from Phantom Menace, "Nothing can get through our shields".

I always thought it was, "This station is now the ultimate power in the universe."

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2005-09-24 10:03am

No, that's from A New Hope.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2005-09-24 11:52am

The Spartan wrote:No, that's from A New Hope.

Um, I'm talking about the quote being the best to hit pedantic trekkies with, not the quote being the one from Phantom Menace.

Unless that's just dead-pan humor, in which case, never mind and try throwing this guy:

in next time.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2005-09-24 12:07pm

Sorry. Thought you were saying that the quote was from The Phantom Menace.

My mistake.

Darth Quorthon · Post by **Darth Quorthon** » 2005-09-26 09:38pm

The best chance for the Federation would be to take as many ships to the planet where the Guardian of Forever is, and send as many people and pieces of equipment as they possibly can through the portal to a time millions of years before the earliest human cities and try to build a new society from that point. They would also have to leave behind some kind of powerful antimatter time bomb to make sure the Imperials could not follow. These people would have to be a good cross-section of society: military, political, scientists, etc. They would then have millions of years to try to improve their existing technology, and plan for the coming threat. This is quite a desperate action, but "desperate times...etc."

I think this would be only possible way that ST could overcome SW, assuming:
1. The Guardian would allow them to do such a thing.
2. The Empire didn't get there first.
3. Enough people buy into the Guardian of Forever, which is one of the most bizarre things ever seen in Star Trek. Even Spock said; "This object cannot exist according to any science I understand."

Naturally, there is no guarantee it would work, but I think it would be their best chance.

Post by **Kuja** » 2005-09-26 11:09pm

Darth Quorthon wrote:The best chance for the Federation would be to take as many ships to the planet where the Guardian of Forever is, and send as many people and pieces of equipment as they possibly can through the portal to a time millions of years before the earliest human cities and try to build a new society from that point. They would also have to leave behind some kind of powerful antimatter time bomb to make sure the Imperials could not follow. These people would have to be a good cross-section of society: military, political, scientists, etc. They would then have millions of years to try to improve their existing technology, and plan for the coming threat. This is quite a desperate action, but "desperate times...etc."

I think this would be only possible way that ST could overcome SW, assuming:
1. The Guardian would allow them to do such a thing.
2. The Empire didn't get there first.
3. Enough people buy into the Guardian of Forever, which is one of the most bizarre things ever seen in Star Trek. Even Spock said; "This object cannot exist according to any science I understand."

Naturally, there is no guarantee it would work, but I think it would be their best chance.

The myth of Time Travel

Darth Quorthon · Post by **Darth Quorthon** » 2005-09-26 11:41pm

[quote="Kuja
The myth of Time Travel[/quote]

Point taken.

So basically, they could go ahead and try it, but it wouldn't work.

This website has so much info, and I'm new to it, so I haven't seen everything yet. I missed that one, and I have no excuse.

I got a little carried away there playing the devil's advocate, and I should have known better because ST has had so many time-travel instances and created so many paradoxes and contradictions that it can give you a real headache.

There is a ST book called First Frontier (Diane Carey, 1995), where some intelligent Lizards use the Guardian to go back to Earth approximately 62 million years ago and stop the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs from impacting, but somehow Kirk and the Enterprise remain in the universe even though everything else has changed and humanity has disappeared. They then use the Guardian to go back and stop the lizards and restore humanity and the Federation. Guess I got carried away thinking along those lines. My apologies.

So, apparently, the Federation's only hope would be to surrender and swear to serve the Empire faithfully. I think this would be most profitable for the Federation, since it would get the Borg, Dominion, Tholians, Breen and every other bad-guy-of-the-week off their backs. Unless the Empire finds the Klingons more to their liking.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-09-26 11:53pm

Darth Quorthon wrote:So, apparently, the Federation's only hope would be to surrender and swear to serve the Empire faithfully. I think this would be most profitable for the Federation, since it would get the Borg, Dominion, Tholians, Breen and every other bad-guy-of-the-week off their backs. Unless the Empire finds the Klingons more to their liking.

Nah. The Empire had a fairly strong Pro-Human movement in the books; they'd happily retool the Federation into a satellite. Mind you, if there's a single chokepoint in and out of the Milky Way, it may prove useful for the Federation military to quietly approach the Rebellion.

Darth Quorthon · Post by **Darth Quorthon** » 2005-09-27 12:08am

SirNitram wrote:[Nah. The Empire had a fairly strong Pro-Human movement in the books; they'd happily retool the Federation into a satellite. Mind you, if there's a single chokepoint in and out of the Milky Way, it may prove useful for the Federation military to quietly approach the Rebellion.

Right. I had forgotten about the pro-human movement, even though I read an allusion to it in the novelization of Episode III.

It would be very characteristic of the Federation to approach the Rebels, but I imagine the Empire would have them on a very short leash, in which case the Federation would be instantly roasted.

Personally, I don't think living under the Empire would be all that bad. Just don't make any trouble, do what you're told, and you'll be fine. Better than being blown into disassociated ions.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-09-27 12:09am

Darth Quorthon wrote:
SirNitram wrote:[Nah. The Empire had a fairly strong Pro-Human movement in the books; they'd happily retool the Federation into a satellite. Mind you, if there's a single chokepoint in and out of the Milky Way, it may prove useful for the Federation military to quietly approach the Rebellion.
Right. I had forgotten about the pro-human movement, even though I read an allusion to it in the novelization of Episode III.

It would be very characteristic of the Federation to approach the Rebels, but I imagine the Empire would have them on a very short leash, in which case the Federation would be instantly roasted.

Personally, I don't think living under the Empire would be all that bad. Just don't make any trouble, do what you're told, and you'll be fine. Better than being blown into disassociated ions.

The Empire had alot of crazy psychopaths in it, but you could eck out a nice living in it. Plus, we, the 'viewer', know it'll eventually revert to the New Republic, which will likely let the Federation Of Planets reform.

Oh. With SW grade technology.

'We'd like to discuss re-drawing the Neutral Zone...'

Darth Quorthon · Post by **Darth Quorthon** » 2005-09-27 02:14am

SirNitram wrote: The Empire had alot of crazy psychopaths in it, but you could eck out a nice living in it. Plus, we, the 'viewer', know it'll eventually revert to the New Republic, which will likely let the Federation Of Planets reform.

Oh. With SW grade technology.

'We'd like to discuss re-drawing the Neutral Zone...'

I got the idea from ANH that if you went about your own business the Empire would not bother you. Luke said something like "I don't love the Empire, I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it!" At the time, they certainly had bigger fish to fry.

If the Federation knew what was good for them, they would wait for the Empire to smoke everyone else before they tried anything dumb. The Klingons were definitely too proud to bow to anyone, so they're toast. The Romulans might try some sort of subterfuge, i.e. pretend to serve then work on something behind their back, but the Empire's superior resources would root it out, and pow! The Vulcans, although part of Federation, would no doubt see the Empire's conquest as "illogical" and be summarily vaporized.

The Borg would most likely try to assimilate the Empire and be cooked (I can imagine Vader saying "Assimilate this!"). If I were the Empire I would blast the Ferengi just for fun becuase they look stupid and their greed would get real old real fast. The Breen, Cardassians, and Dominion would also get crushed. Sure, the Breen have energy-damping weapons, but if the Federation Alliance found a way to stop them, the Empire would too. Would the Dominion possibly have a place in the Empire's heart because of their use of cloning? Who knows, but the Dominion would likely not be receptive to the idea of serving another, so, boom!

I doubt Q would bother getting involved. For all his powers, he seems to prefer making mischief above anything else. he would probably just hide out in the Q Continuum and watch everything from afar -- that's assuming the Empire can't access the Q Continuum. Species 8472 might just decide to hide out in their "fluidic space" -- assuming the Empire couldn't access it. 8472 only seems to retaliate, and called off an attack on Earth when they were convinced the Federation wasn't a threat to them.

That only leaves the First Federation. Does anyone remember them? The original Enterprise encountered them in "The Corbomite Maneuver" (TOS), and they appeared to have technology way beyond the Federation, even if their ships looked like mile-wide disco balls. Doubtful they could beat the Empire, though, because even if their ships were equal to the Empire it's doubtful they had nerarly as many. There was the Probe (ST4) too, and while the Probe was pretty bad, there was only one of them.

So, for a short time, the Federation could fantasize about having the Galaxy to themselves... before they tried something dumb and got blown up.
Yes, I know this site focuses on SW v. the Federation, since ST is about the Federation, but if the Empire wanted to conquer the ST galaxy, they would have to destroy/subjugate all of the afformentioned denizens, and I'm assuming that having a base of operations here would help. But I've been wrong before.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-09-27 08:01am

Darth Quorthon wrote:I got the idea from ANH that if you went about your own business the Empire would not bother you. Luke said something like "I don't love the Empire, I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it!" At the time, they certainly had bigger fish to fry.

I'm confused as to what you are getting at. Are you saying that without the Rebellion around the Empire would have gone after Luke anyway?

If the Federation knew what was good for them, they would wait for the Empire to smoke everyone else before they tried anything dumb. The Klingons were definitely too proud to bow to anyone, so they're toast. The Romulans might try some sort of subterfuge, i.e. pretend to serve then work on something behind their back, but the Empire's superior resources would root it out, and pow! The Vulcans, although part of Federation, would no doubt see the Empire's conquest as "illogical" and be summarily vaporized.

Oh boy, species stereotyping that makes any other course of action practically impossible.

The Borg would most likely try to assimilate the Empire and be cooked (I can imagine Vader saying "Assimilate this!"). If I were the Empire I would blast the Ferengi just for fun becuase they look stupid and their greed would get real old real fast.

Is there a point to any of this aside from "me too"ing? Blasting the Ferengi simply due to their looks is actually a pretty stupid statement, since they would probably be the most loyal of collaborators.

Rest of post snipped

Enthusiasm for the topic is good, you have that. Please read the site, read the forums, and come back with a head full of knowledge rather than restating opinions and things which are generally known and accepted. I did that stuff too with my first few posts IIRC.