Clonetrooper tactics at Geonosis

[Darth Wong]

I received this E-mail from a .mil E-mail address a little while ago:

I'm obviously a member of the US Army. I'm also an infantryman and veteran in the war in Iraq. I say this not to brag, but so you know that I'm not just talking. At the battle of Geonosis I believe they used sound military strategy throughout that engagement.

First, AT-TE: I see these as the SW equivalent of the US Bradley IFV & CFV (I was a gunner on the IFV for a yaer and in a mech unit for two and a half). In the infantry role their job is to support ground troops, and that is it. We use the Bradley in this capacity to lay down a solid base of fire, and deal with targets that standard infantry would have a hard time with. Also most vehicle mounted weapons have a much greater range than small arms. So they stay behind the infantry providing support and only occasionally moving ahead or away from those troopers assigned to them. This increases the squads ability to both deal with "hard targets" (i.e. tanks and bunkers), as well as increasing their range and mobility. I believe this is why we never saw them move ahead of the troops, as opposed to the idea that it was simply from unfamiliarity with their gear.

Next, trooper tactics: we see clonetroopers simply walking forward toward their enemy rather than taking cover and returning fire. I believe a possible explanation is in the fact there was little to no cover in the area we see fighting taking place. Modern US military tactics state that if you are out in the open in order to effectively engage the enemy you run forward for three to five seconds then drop to your belly fire at the enemy stand up and repeat. However it was not, and still is not, always been like that. In WW1 soldiers were taught to rush the enemy while firing, and a friend of mine states he was taught to do the same while in basic training for the US Navy. While this strikes some as rather silly (myself included) it is still a valid tactic against human targets, since most peoples first reaction to hostile fire is to seek cover. Now granted this is less effective against a droid for obvious reasons, it is not that much of a stretch to think that when the GAR was first being set up that the Kaminoans might not have been aware of who or what the clonetroopers would be facing. So they may have trained the clones to fight an organic foe rather than a mechanical one. If there is some EU evidence that shows otherwise I apologize. I'm not as well versed on the EU as some. In closing I wish to thank you for your time and effort in reading this bit of ramblikg from me.

Sincerely,
David Gates
SGT US Army

Comments?

[Duckie]

Sounds reasonable. I would also think that the Clonetroopers were moving forward instead of taking cover because they are considered rather expendable and because the Jedi seemed to want to capture enemy leaders in addition to defeating the enemy (getting the army to them, naturally, before they could escape like they ended up doing).

[Stuart Mackey]

Seems reasonable. What this chappie mentions about fire/move is what I have seen NZ army small units practice, but I know from various books that other methods have been/are used. I dont see why the GAR would be different. In the movie, things dont look well organised, but then we are not given much insight into the details of their training, which makes it difficult to judge.
I guess that a lot comes down to if the GAR acheived its goal with accptable losses.
It would be interesting to see the opinion of the resident army lot.

[FTeik]

The clones might also put a lot of faith in their armor, the AotC:VD says that they feel invincible inside the armor or something like that.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

First, AT-TE: I see these as the SW equivalent of the US Bradley IFV & CFV (I was a gunner on the IFV for a yaer and in a mech unit for two and a half). In the infantry role their job is to support ground troops, and that is it. We use the Bradley in this capacity to lay down a solid base of fire, and deal with targets that standard infantry would have a hard time with. Also most vehicle mounted weapons have a much greater range than small arms. So they stay behind the infantry providing support and only occasionally moving ahead or away from those troopers assigned to them. This increases the squads ability to both deal with "hard targets" (i.e. tanks and bunkers), as well as increasing their range and mobility. I believe this is why we never saw them move ahead of the troops, as opposed to the idea that it was simply from unfamiliarity with their gear.

Sounds reasonable, but it is a more conservative use of the vehicle. It is a basic move.

I believe a possible explanation is in the fact there was little to no cover in the area we see fighting taking place.

IMO, that's not a really good explanation. Even in the unfortunate event that you are in the flat, merely by crouching and scrambling you could reduce your target profile by about half (your height). By flattening (belly) it is more a fifth. Besides, it is rare for natural terrain to be truly all flat in any case - even a "clear area" might have a dip here and there that one might use.

That's not counting the fact the closer you are to prone, the more accurate you tend to be - you are better supported.

If you go at a higher speed, you can choose to zig-zag while maintaining overall Speed of Advance.

In WW1 soldiers were taught to rush the enemy while firing, and a friend of mine states he was taught to do the same while in basic training for the US Navy.

I understand that they changed from WWI tactics after they were getting murdered using them in the field...

I don't know exactly what the Navy trains its men in basic combat tactics for - I assume it'd be for relatively close range stuff - CQB in ships, perhaps. Or self-defense, also as close range.

While this strikes some as rather silly (myself included) it is still a valid tactic against human targets, since most peoples first reaction to hostile fire is to seek cover.

The only problem being that after they seek cover, they would realize that you are a big target rushing versus them being a small target. They would also realize that your fire is inaccurate because you are firing from the hip. Then they would use their sights and shoot you. This kind of thing is probably why such tactics went out of favor.

Or, if you are attacking even a slightly prepared defense, they'd be lying flat. Most likely, they'd see you guys charging first, and shoot you. You might not even see them before they shoot.

Accurate, deadly fire by bounding overwatch tactics (A fires, B moves kinda stuff) create permanent suppression because you know if you stick your head out to aim at the rushing mass you die. Under this suppression, an assault wave as I understand it could indeed charge while firing with a good chance of success.

Inaccurate fire might scare for a bit, but IMHO you'd be counting on low enemy morale if you don't expect them to start returning fire very soon - and murdering your men - thus they use short rushes.

Besides, IIRC the clones were plodding, not rushing...

I still think it questionable.

[Darth Wong]

I don't think he was actually arguing that this tactic was superior to the conventional tactic; he actually described it as "rather silly". He seems to be saying only that it's possible that someone might have trained them that way without necessarily being an idiot. Given their armour and high-powered weapons, the psychological warfare tactic might work better against an organic opponent. Of course, one would hope that negative experiences in the field would force a re-evaluation of these tactics, but we see problems with their tactics even in ROTS. Another possible explanation is that they have some kind of Spartan warrior code. A lot of historical "warrior's codes" were quite unproductive from a strict logical tactical sense.

[FTeik]

Would crouching low in flat terrain even help them? Considering, that they're fighting droids?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Would crouching low in flat terrain even help them? Considering, that they're fighting droids?

1) You can have the best FCS in the world, but half the target area is still half the target area.
2) The Sergeant cannot argue this while he just made the claim that the Kaminoans were planning for them to hit organics instead of droids. Against organics, half the target area would be worth quite a bit.
3) If the droids have the kind of FCS we'd stereotypically expect them to have, the clones would be wiped out from their superior aim. It is quite obvious that for one reason or another, at least the cheapie droids don't have mega-aim.
4) Crouching and prone positions not only makes you a lesser target. It actually gives better support for a typical rifle, so you also shoot better.

[Nephtys]

I don't think he was actually arguing that this tactic was superior to the conventional tactic; he actually described it as "rather silly". He seems to be saying only that it's possible that someone might have trained them that way without necessarily being an idiot. Given their armour and high-powered weapons, the psychological warfare tactic might work better against an organic opponent. Of course, one would hope that negative experiences in the field would force a re-evaluation of these tactics, but we see problems with their tactics even in ROTS. Another possible explanation is that they have some kind of Spartan warrior code. A lot of historical "warrior's codes" were quite unproductive from a strict logical tactical sense.

To be fair, Droids have chickened out, especially in Episode 1. Perhaps by attacking like that, they expected for whatever limited self-preservation routines they may have had to kick in and disrupt efficiency? Just an idea, since it's pretty much like if the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation designed those droid brains...

[Darth Wong]

Another possibility is that the terrain between the clones and the droid army was slightly crowned, so they had to stand up in order to get a clear line of sight to the enemy. But then you'd expect them to get down when the enemy closes the distance.

I keep thinking of the Kashyyk battle, however. In that case, they set up elevated firing positions, trenches, and were bringing their armour to the beach, so it seems that they understand what to do. But when the wookies get up and start charging like demented Zulus, the clones follow them. That's why I wonder about the "Spartan warrior code" possibility.

[Star Wars Fan]

oh. I htought the clonetroopers formed some sort of formation (i saw it in the Star Wars unofficial encyclopedia) whick allowed them to win even though they were outnumbered at least 10 to 1. that is likely, also

[Noble Ire]

oh. I htought the clonetroopers formed some sort of formation (i saw it in the Star Wars unofficial encyclopedia) whick allowed them to win even though they were outnumbered at least 10 to 1. that is likely, also

No. As I recall, the GAR won because they were able to catch the droid army completely off guard, while much of the CIS heavy weaponry was still in storage or being loaded onto TF core ships. The leadership was pretty disorganized as well. In any event, the Clone Army didn't stay on the ground very long, just long enough to rescue the Jedi and destroy a few key core ships. Then they withdrew, allowing the Republic fleet to BDZ the planet.

[Star Wars Fan]

No. As I recall, the GAR won because they were able to catch the droid army completely off guard, while much of the CIS heavy weaponry was still in storage or being loaded onto TF core ships. The leadership was pretty disorganized as well. In any event, the Clone Army didn't stay on the ground very long, just long enough to rescue the Jedi and destroy a few key core ships. Then they withdrew, allowing the Republic fleet to BDZ the planet.

that, and the SPHA-Ts. anyway, i didn't know the Republic BDZed the planet. that explains why Grievous did that to humbarine.

if the planet was BDZed, why was there the Rogue Squadron mission "Relics Of Geonosis" continuity error?

[The Original Nex]

Since when did the Republic BDZ Geonosis?

[dragon]

When he mention how the Army teaches the 3 to 5 second rushes he forgot to add that its slowly bieng fazed out. For the last year my unit which is a signal unit have been teaching us to fight as the special forces fight. This is always moving foward while firing especially if you are in an open area.

[Noble Ire]

Since when did the Republic BDZ Geonosis?

My mistake, actually. The AOTC:ICS mentions Acclamators are capable of BDZs, and that they were used during the Clone Wars, but it does not mention Geonosis specifically.

[Lord Sabre Ace]

In WW1 soldiers were taught to rush the enemy while firing, and a friend of mine states he was taught to do the same while in basic training for the US Navy.

I understand that they changed from WWI tactics after they were getting murdered using them in the field...

The Germans pioneered squad-based tactics during WWI. They changed the method of advance from massive bayonet-charges to several-man squads led by an NCO.

Interestingly enough, the elite German soldiers trained to use squad-based tactics were called Stormtroopers.

[Qwerty 42]

In WW1 soldiers were taught to rush the enemy while firing, and a friend of mine states he was taught to do the same while in basic training for the US Navy.

I understand that they changed from WWI tactics after they were getting murdered using them in the field...

The Germans pioneered squad-based tactics during WWI. They changed the method of advance from massive bayonet-charges to several-man squads led by an NCO.

Minor nitpick, but as far as I know (feel free to correct me), bayonet charges were seriously outdated by WWI. During Gettysburg, the bayonet charge that let the Union hold Little Round Top was considered a last ditch effort after they'd already practically run out of ammunition, and this was 50 years before WWI.

Interestingly enough, the elite German soldiers trained to use squad-based tactics were called Stormtroopers.

Lucas used the name in reference to the German stormtroopers, IIRC.

[Ender]

Another possibility is that the terrain between the clones and the droid army was slightly crowned, so they had to stand up in order to get a clear line of sight to the enemy. But then you'd expect them to get down when the enemy closes the distance.

If you watch, when the clones fire they do so with their weapons angled up. I wondered if this supported that the blasters were in fact ballistic in nature, but a crown in the field would explain it as well.

I keep thinking of the Kashyyk battle, however. In that case, they set up elevated firing positions, trenches, and were bringing their armour to the beach, so it seems that they understand what to do. But when the wookies get up and start charging like demented Zulus, the clones follow them. That's why I wonder about the "Spartan warrior code" possibility.

Don't want to hit the wookiees so they have to follow them maybe?

[Ender]

Since when did the Republic BDZ Geonosis?

It wasn't. However, it was completely stripped of technology the same way Ratillar later was.

[Lord Sabre Ace]

Minor nitpick, but as far as I know (feel free to correct me), bayonet charges were seriously outdated by WWI. During Gettysburg, the bayonet charge that let the Union hold Little Round Top was considered a last ditch effort after they'd already practically run out of ammunition, and this was 50 years before WWI.

Bayonets were still in wide use in WWI, WWII, and beyond. Generals and other staff loved the bayonet charge. They thought it was reminiscent of the "romantic and honorable" days of warfare.

Bayonet charges led to large massacres on the attacking side. 58,000 British soldiers died in the bayonet charge at Somme.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/somme.htm

Lucas used the name in reference to the German stormtroopers, IIRC.

I know that's where he got the name. I was just pointing that out for any who might not have known.

[Isolder74]

One of the main problems with the battle of the Somme was the fact that Generals on both sides assumed that artillery wouls destroy all defenses that would slow down their troops. The Charges had fixed bayonets but they also were expected to make use of their rifles. In taking a trench the only weapon really good for doing so was the bayonet. The Sub machine gun was only the other real alternitive.

Sadly the only way to take a trench was to get men into it.

[Pablo Sanchez]

When he mention how the Army teaches the 3 to 5 second rushes he forgot to add that its slowly bieng fazed out. For the last year my unit which is a signal unit have been teaching us to fight as the special forces fight. This is always moving foward while firing especially if you are in an open area.

I should think that that is supposed to be in supplement to bounding overwatch as opposed to replacement of it, and is mainly to be used in shorter ranged combat. Fire delivered by a stationary man is always going to be far more accurate than from a man who is walking (or running!), particularly with respect to automatic weapons like SAWs and machineguns, which means that it will be better at suppressing the enemy.

I think the point of that man's e-mail was to say that while the Clone Trooper's tactics were not especially smart, they were still justifiable in military terms.

[Stuart Mackey]

Minor nitpick, but as far as I know (feel free to correct me), bayonet charges were seriously outdated by WWI. During Gettysburg, the bayonet charge that let the Union hold Little Round Top was considered a last ditch effort after they'd already practically run out of ammunition, and this was 50 years before WWI.

Bayonets were still in wide use in WWI, WWII, and beyond. Generals and other staff loved the bayonet charge. They thought it was reminiscent of the "romantic and honorable" days of warfare.

Bayonet charges led to large massacres on the attacking side. 58,000 British soldiers died in the bayonet charge at Somme.

Allthough Aussie and NZ soldiers used the bayonet effectivly.

[Stuart Mackey]

One of the main problems with the battle of the Somme was the fact that Generals on both sides assumed that artillery wouls destroy all defenses that would slow down their troops. The Charges had fixed bayonets but they also were expected to make use of their rifles. In taking a trench the only weapon really good for doing so was the bayonet. The Sub machine gun was only the other real alternitive.

Sadly the only way to take a trench was to get men into it.

Or use grenades.