Christian questions

[TrailerParkJawa]

I've been gone for too long. Morally good? As God's creation, I don't see how you can attempt to judge the judge.This argument is becoming very old, when it comes to God's judgement.Portraying God as some mere being will not work in this type of argument.

Thank you for not even having the courage to answer the question. Its really simple. Was the death of babies caused by the flood the moral thing to do?

YES --- NO

[data_link]

I've been gone for too long. Morally good? As God's creation, I don't see how you can attempt to judge the judge.This argument is becoming very old, when it comes to God's judgement.Portraying God as some mere being will not work in this type of argument.

Not long enough. And we have a right to judge him because we are the victims of his atrocities. Duh.

[Coyote]

Um, ESB... the point of this thread wasn't to answer the questions, just to ask them so as to mock the apoligist. That's why I said this belonged in OT.

Sorry. My bad.

Report to spankings, Immediately! Section 10, level 3B, room 69. I will inform the Mistress to have her riding crop ready to oversee your punishment.

[haas mark]

I think it's a Book of Timothy (MAYBE...somebody else, if not) that has been discounted by the Vatican as a book of the Bible that said there was to be no churches built. If I were a Christian and somebodyt asked me why, then I would use that as my reason. It says that God's home is your heart, not a building made by man. Anything made by man is unholy, and thus churches would be unholy. Just as input.

that's a bloody depressing thought. doesnt really work as a philosophy either. Christ was a carpenter, for a while, and so made things. . . and as he is sinless, making things cant be immoral.

or maybe just making tables is moral. I predict a new cult soon.

If you think about it, Jesus was technically not man, in the CHristians' eyes.

[haas mark]

If Christianity is moral, then why do people need to apoligize for being Christians?

"Apology" primarily means "a formal justification."

Care to justify?

Why does the pope wear such a rediculous hat?

Poor taste in fashion.

lol! It's a symbol of power......a poor taste in fashion, yes, but a symbol of power. Have you talked to any Catholics lately?

Why does God need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to change a law he made himself?

So that He could bring unto Himself the beings He created for Himself.

If he is omnipotent, he could have doine so by other means.

Okay, so God created the universe, but what has he done since then?

Almost everything.

Justify. He created the universe, he created every living thing in it, but he did not physically create anything past that. He has done nothing but order people to their deaths. That would not be creating people, that would be destroying them.

Why do Christians work so hard for someone that never shows them any respect?

Do we deserve anything from God?

Do you count your life?

Why does God think it more important to build churches than to help starving kids in Africa?

Um.

No.

Your answer being........?

If no one can find God without faith, then what happens when God loses faith in himself?

Um.

No.

Your answer being......?

[haas mark]

No, "Apology" primarily means "A statement of acknowledgment expressing regret or asking pardon for a fault or offense." Suggest you purchase a dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apology

My dictionary lists "a formal justification" as the primary definition. Above, it is 2a.

In any case, the terms "apologetics" and thus "apologist" are derived from "apologia," closely related to "apology."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=apologia

Apologia != Apology. Concession Accepted.

So you admit that God created the world for himself and his own selfish desires, in spite of knowing the pain it would cause the rest of us. Concession accepted.

Hardly a concession. Pain is for our (or perhaps my) ultimate good.

So then Hell is good? Concession Accepted, because you stated that pain is for good. If Hell is evil, Hell is pain, and if pain is good, and God is good, then God = pain = evil, because Hell is evil.

Really? I thought that was humans. Tell me, did God bring down the WTC? We really want to know.

He made it possible; I know that for sure.

TO make it possible is different from actually doing it.

To be exact, since the beginning, God has "done" everything which was not "done" by another being's free will.

In other words, nothing.

We deserve the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

How about that "supporting your statements" rule, huh?

Why do you believe we deserve such rights?

Why do you believe we don't? YOu are trapping yourself...

What, can't think of an answer? Concession accepted.

Yes, I concede. It is difficult to think of an answer when there was no thinking behind the question.

Writing a question requires thought. Try again.

[Coyote]

Gricksigger, I'd like to remind you of some questions I posted awhile back, just to see if you remember them... and of course the Apologist or CreationistAllTheWay is welcome to join in, or even Zap81 if he's interested...

...What matters is that all books in the Bible were written by authors when they were filled with the Holy Spirit that made their work inded the Word of God, inerrant, infallible, etc.

Okay, so the Bible is entirely infallible. So explain to me a few things, please...

... for example, the prophet Elisha performed miracles, like pouring a vast amount of oil from a tiny vial (Kings II; 4:1-7), he also revived the dead (Mark 5:35-43) and ascended into heaven alive (Kings II; 2:9-14). Yet the Torah never claimed Elisha to be the Messiah or God, in fact it warns against the coming of false prophets who will perform real miracles and warns the Jews not to follow anyone who tries to lead them from the Torah's teachings (Deuteronomy; 13: 2-6).

Jesus's Davidic lineage, another claim to Messiah status, came under scrutiny. Here I was pointed to the work Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen, a personal acquaintance of mine, who has done his own research in comparing the New Testament to the Torah. He found some discrepancies between Matthew and Luke-- Matthew 1:6-16 said that twenty-eight generations seperated Jesus from King David, whereas Luke 3:23-38 shows forty-three generations of seperation. Even if one geneology is for Mary, and one for Joseph, well, that's still a lot of mismatch. It was even pointed out that the two apostles did not even agree on Jesus's paternal grandfather.

My friend Rabbi Kelemen also found an essay by Catholic theologian John P. Meier, which was endorsed by the Archbishop of Milan, who admits that the geneologies "are of questionable historicity". The essay was "Jesus of History: Origins and Ministry" by John P. Meier, in the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, 1319.

There are some fascinating things one can find when one looks around. Most notable are these contradictions. Also, bear in mind that the Messiah is is to arrive in Jerusalem on the back of a white donkey (literally, "hamor levan," in Hebrew, a "white ass") led by the Prophet Elisha. The arrival of the Messiah will also usher in a thousand-year reign of Peace, which clearly has not happened yet.

So, what exactly are you claiming to be "infallible"? The Christian validation for Jesus rests on Hebrew prophesy from the Old Testament, and according to the OT... you're on thin ice.

"'az, tagid'lanu ha'tchuvah, bevakeshah."

[haas mark]

Ooh ooh, I have a question:

Why can no two Christians EVER agree on what constitutes Christianity?

Because there is so much interpretation put in the Bible, there is bound to be a massive amount of differences.

Moreover, I've never heard of two people who ever fully agree on everything.

However, one can derive simple things like the fact that the reward/punishment motive is not a good reason to believe in Christ. That would be selfish-ambition.

Umm.....then what DO you believe in? Everything in the Bible is all about reward and punishment (ie, you either go to heaven or hell, and in some cases, purgatory).

[jegs2]

That doesn't work. Especially considering the contradictions. Oh and how do you interpret pi to equal 3 in the Bible but not in reality?

Thats for a different thread, but I"d like to be shown where in the Bible it claims pi equals 3 (I believe I know what you are reffering to)

1 Kings 7:23. And what thread is it for?

IKing 7:23
23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.
(NIV)

IKing 7:23
23 And he made the Sea of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference.
(NKJ)

Two different versions of the Bible quoted above -- Don't see a reference to PI equalling three here, but perhaps I'm missing something.

[haas mark]

It still prevents it from being all true.

People have been trying to ponder the meaning of Shakespeare, for a while. Many have different opinions.

Does that mean Shakespeare, was not definite in his intentions when he wrote his plays?

He was definite in his intentions. We have no way of knowing what those intentions were.

[haas mark]

The meaning is the only thing open to interpretation, not the actual events in the story. Get a clue dumbass.

We are talking about the meaning. Catholics versus Protestants both believe the same events happened, but they take different meaning from it.

No. Protestants take things out of the Bible, not interpret them differently. What they interpret differently is what the Church stands for. Try again.

[haas mark]

Examples, please. Some commandments are not applicable to God, by the way. And why, you ask? Because he's God, he's perfect, he's morally good, he cannot sin, he cannot lie, etc.

You honestly believe it was morally good for him to flood the Earth and drown thens of thousands of innocent babies??

I've been gone for too long. Morally good? As God's creation, I don't see how you can attempt to judge the judge.This argument is becoming very old, when it comes to God's judgement.Portraying God as some mere being will not work in this type of argument.

Easy enough. (A) Not believing in him. (B) Humans reserve the right to do so by whast we liek to call free will. Maybe you should take your head out of your bible and figure out what that is.

[Colonel Olrik]

Two different versions of the Bible quoted above -- Don't see a reference to PI equalling three here, but perhaps I'm missing something.

pi=perimeter/diameter = 30/10 = 3.

It maybe an aproximation, but it is still a very rough aproximation (the writer would fail any exame). The value for pi was already known to be more than three, well before the Bible was written (it doesn't take much to verify it).

[haas mark]

Thats for a different thread, but I"d like to be shown where in the Bible it claims pi equals 3 (I believe I know what you are reffering to)

1 Kings 7:23. And what thread is it for?

IKing 7:23
23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.
(NIV)

IKing 7:23
23 And he made the Sea of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference.
(NKJ)

Two different versions of the Bible quoted above -- Don't see a reference to PI equalling three here, but perhaps I'm missing something.

I don't remember where this was covered but it is simple mathematics. Circumference = 2*pi*radius (or diameter/2). in other words, we have pi*diameter. If we take the diameter (10) and muyltiply it by pi (3.14159...) we get 31.4159... That is how we get that it is not equal, and that 3 = pi in the bible, because 10 (diameter) * 3 = 30.

[Coyote]

Data_link, Verilon, the "Apologist" tag that "The Apologist" is using comes, I think, from the use of the term by Eusebius, the Christian writer/philosopher and historian of Constantine's court. It i derived from Plato's "Apologies", in which he offers a justification for his actions. It is like a legal statement of justification.

But it is so od to use the term in reference to the "Apologism" of a Fundamentalist. Everything in the Bible is supposed to be God-breathed yet contradictions abound; and when one studies the time of Constantine you realize that the celebration of Christmas, for example, was wholly artificial and is actually the celebration of the god/prophet Mithras, another monotheistic deity that was popular around that time.

In fact, many Christians were in fact Mithranists, and an edict by Constantine stated that Christianity was the belief in One God and the affirmation of his worshgip by Good Acts. Mithras's birthday was in late December and had been celebrated in coincidence with the winter solstace for some time. It was celebrated with trees and candlelights.

Almost everyting in modern Christianity comes from Constantine, in fact I'd say it should be called "Constantinity" due to his universal influence on the religion in that time, even going os far as to adopt the title of the high priest of Jupiter from Rome's Capitoline Temple-- the "pontifex maximus"-- to be the "pontifex" or Pontiff of the new church. He was Pope in everything but name, it could be argued.

So it leads me to wonder just exactly what is it that a Christian "Apologist" is really trying to Justify?

[Enforcer Talen]

I think it's a Book of Timothy (MAYBE...somebody else, if not) that has been discounted by the Vatican as a book of the Bible that said there was to be no churches built. If I were a Christian and somebodyt asked me why, then I would use that as my reason. It says that God's home is your heart, not a building made by man. Anything made by man is unholy, and thus churches would be unholy. Just as input.

that's a bloody depressing thought. doesnt really work as a philosophy either. Christ was a carpenter, for a while, and so made things. . . and as he is sinless, making things cant be immoral.

or maybe just making tables is moral. I predict a new cult soon.

If you think about it, Jesus was technically not man, in the CHristians' eyes.

I thot, technically, he was both?

[jegs2]

1 Kings 7:23. And what thread is it for?

IKing 7:23
23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.
(NIV)

IKing 7:23
23 And he made the Sea of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference.
(NKJ)

Two different versions of the Bible quoted above -- Don't see a reference to PI equalling three here, but perhaps I'm missing something.

I don't remember where this was covered but it is simple mathematics. Circumference = 2*pi*radius (or diameter/2). in other words, we have pi*diameter. If we take the diameter (10) and muyltiply it by pi (3.14159...) we get 31.4159... That is how we get that it is not equal, and that 3 = pi in the bible, because 10 (diameter) * 3 = 30.

I didn't get all of that out of the verse. I understood the verse to say that the thing took thrirty cubits to measure around it, as if you took a tape measure around a big bronse tub, and it measured thirty cubits (assuming one owns a tape mesure that mesures in cubits). Frankly, I think folks are trying to read too much into the verse...

[haas mark]

IKing 7:23
23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.
(NIV)

IKing 7:23
23 And he made the Sea of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference.
(NKJ)

Two different versions of the Bible quoted above -- Don't see a reference to PI equalling three here, but perhaps I'm missing something.

I don't remember where this was covered but it is simple mathematics. Circumference = 2*pi*radius (or diameter/2). in other words, we have pi*diameter. If we take the diameter (10) and muyltiply it by pi (3.14159...) we get 31.4159... That is how we get that it is not equal, and that 3 = pi in the bible, because 10 (diameter) * 3 = 30.

I didn't get all of that out of the verse. I understood the verse to say that the thing took thrirty cubits to measure around it, as if you took a tape measure around a big bronse tub, and it measured thirty cubits (assuming one owns a tape mesure that mesures in cubits). Frankly, I think folks are trying to read too much into the verse...

It said 30 cubits in diameter. Given that pi*diameter = circumference, and diameter = 10 cubits, and pi = circumference (30) divided by diameter (10) is not true (3.14 != 3), there you go.

[haas mark]

that's a bloody depressing thought. doesnt really work as a philosophy either. Christ was a carpenter, for a while, and so made things. . . and as he is sinless, making things cant be immoral.

or maybe just making tables is moral. I predict a new cult soon.

If you think about it, Jesus was technically not man, in the CHristians' eyes.

I thot, technically, he was both?

Dpends on interpretation, of course.

[beyond hope]

This thread reminds me of exactly why I won't talk with any Christian on their terms, by according the Bible any kind of validity. The Old Testament is 2,000 year old Hebrew poetry which has afterwards reached English through several intermediate translations. The accuracy of the result could only be regarded as dubious at best. The New Testament is an addendum tacked on by a heretical offshoot of Judaism which we have the misfortune of *still* being plagued with in the 21st century. The two books contradict each other: it's blindingly obvious if you sit down and read through the Old Testament, and then read through the New Testament. The different *books* of the New Testament even contradict each other. Check out how many books there are on biblical interpretation, some of which go back to the greek translations and even *show* that the meaning of verses has shifted through the different interpretations. So much for "biblical inerrancy." It's just a book, and not an especially well-written or interesting one at that.

Anyway, that's my rant for the night. There was a point where I used to entertain these kind of discussions: that was before I realized that the only goal fundies have in them is to preach to you, however they can.

[jegs2]

It said 30 cubits in diameter. Given that pi*diameter = circumference, and diameter = 10 cubits, and pi = circumference (30) divided by diameter (10) is not true (3.14 != 3), there you go.

Hmmm, let's see that verse again:

IKing 7:23
23 He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.
(NIV)

Okay, but it still looks to me like someone took a tape measure around the thing and came up with thirty cubits. I'm no mathmetician, but I've measured a lots of stuff before, including round things, and I don't think the above verse violates any mathematical principles...

[haas mark]

One question for beyond hope: How do you expect it to be well-written by today's standards if it was written in excess of 2000 years ago?

[haas mark]

Okay, but it still looks to me like someone took a tape measure around the thing and came up with thirty cubits. I'm no mathmetician, but I've measured a lots of stuff before, including round things, and I don't think the above verse violates any mathematical principles...

How does it violate mathematical principles...!?

[jegs2]

Okay, but it still looks to me like someone took a tape measure around the thing and came up with thirty cubits. I'm no mathmetician, but I've measured a lots of stuff before, including round things, and I don't think the above verse violates any mathematical principles...

How does it violate mathematical principles...!?

Why, by saying that PI=3 of course. Was that not the point?

[haas mark]

Okay, but it still looks to me like someone took a tape measure around the thing and came up with thirty cubits. I'm no mathmetician, but I've measured a lots of stuff before, including round things, and I don't think the above verse violates any mathematical principles...

How does it violate mathematical principles...!?

Why, by saying that PI=3 of course. Was that not the point?

Yes! THat is exactlky what I said! It violates the definition of pi! You wrote that it DOESNT violate any mathematical principles though.....how can it not?