Peregrine and Defiant... Star Wars ripoffs?

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-19 07:50pm

brianeyci wrote:I wonder what was the original idea behind the pulse-phaser fixed axis weapons on the Defiant.

Fixed axis seems to be a disadvantage.

Brian

One imagines it's easier, and allows for a more direct power feed, hence a potentially more powerful punch--- very useful in a warship, as you can imagine. Plus you don't need to run wiring trunks all over in order to ensure an equal distribution of power to all the phaser banks...

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-19 11:03pm

Stark wrote:I'm curious: do these ships have adjustable covergence? All the shots of Defiant firing I have seen have the four weapons apparently firing parallel (although not always directly forward), so not all are guaranteed to hit. Perhaps the projectiles move so slowly this is neccesary?

Converging guns bring up several problems of their own. For example, you can only effectively target at a fixed range.

However, I don't think it should be too difficult to mount the phasers on servos and link them to a radar or laser range finder to adjust convergence based on target distance.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2005-09-30 01:47am

Darth Servo wrote:I don't seem to remember too many flat oval shapped ships in SW.

lol, they look nothing alike, but I do recall one notable flat round craft.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-09-30 03:39am

Lord Sabre Ace wrote:
Stark wrote:I'm curious: do these ships have adjustable covergence? <snip self>
Converging guns bring up several problems of their own. For example, you can only effectively target at a fixed range.

However, I don't think it should be too difficult to mount the phasers on servos and link them to a radar or laser range finder to adjust convergence based on target distance.

Hello? ADJUSTABLE convergence. You quoted it, but you clearly didn't read it. The question primarily relates to the length of Defiants guns (I don't know if they're just points that can be adjusted) and off-axis capability of the pulse phasers, ie are they even capable of firing other than straight-line.

LaCroix · Post by **LaCroix** » 2005-09-30 04:49am

Logical cause:

It's a Warship.

How often were the Phasers out on the enterprise after a good hit?
This does not necessary mean that the emitters are down.
A normal phaser array is unable to fire if the targeting system is out. The beam has to be pointed by the tracking systems.

Not with the defiant class. Hit the button, as long as the power is available and the emitters are intact, it will spit it's stream of energy. Even if all targeting fails, set course on target and "voila"...

The defiant class is the only ship in ST designed to fight until its torn to pieces.
Maybe there is some targeting and convergence available, but if battle damages occur, it will be far more effective than any other ST capship.

Just my 2ct.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-09-30 07:59am

So now not being able to aim is an advantage? Turrets are bad? While I agree that centralised design is a terrible ST flaw, and losing most weapons due to control failure a pretty common ST problem, it is not an advantage to only be able to fire in one direction. It means Defiant must fly predictable flight paths to engage targets, and it's ability to put concentrated fire on targets is limited.

Given displayed ST (well, Fed) accuracy, I'd expect Defiant-class ships to be destroyed relatively easily by ships of equal vintage. It can only shoot one way, and SOV can dodge like a silly bastard and put constant streams of accurate fire on Defiant.

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-30 04:17pm

Stark wrote:Hello? ADJUSTABLE convergence. You quoted it, but you clearly didn't read it. The question primarily relates to the length of Defiants guns (I don't know if they're just points that can be adjusted) and off-axis capability of the pulse phasers, ie are they even capable of firing other than straight-line.

I read it. They don't appear to have adjustable convergence on the ships and I was just explaining how easy it would be to give them adjustable convergence.

Faction · Post by **Faction** » 2005-10-11 09:15am

I always thought that the defiant was a rip off of the Whitestar from B5 (or is it the other way round?

)

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-10-11 09:25am

Faction wrote:I always thought that the defiant was a rip off of the Whitestar from B5 (or is it the other way round? )

Whitestar introduction :

"Matters of Honor" Episode: #3.1 - 6 November 1995

Defiant introduction :

"The Search: Part 1" Episode: #3.1 - 26 September 1994

Faction · Post by **Faction** » 2005-10-11 10:13am

Bounty wrote:
Faction wrote:I always thought that the defiant was a rip off of the Whitestar from B5 (or is it the other way round? )
Whitestar introduction :

"Matters of Honor" Episode: #3.1 - 6 November 1995

Defiant introduction :

"The Search: Part 1" Episode: #3.1 - 26 September 1994

I always wondered which came first; thanks for clearing that up. Funny how they both get introduced in Ep3.1

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2005-10-11 11:28am

Stark wrote:
Given displayed ST (well, Fed) accuracy, I'd expect Defiant-class ships to be destroyed relatively easily by ships of equal vintage. It can only shoot one way, and SOV can dodge like a silly bastard and put constant streams of accurate fire on Defiant.

Quite true. Since an uprated ECS fought the Defiant to a draw. Anything more powerful than an uprated ECS would obviously destroy the Defiant, unless it had horrible fire control. Like Worf's flagship from the mirror universe.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-10-11 01:55pm

Faction wrote:
Bounty wrote:
Faction wrote:I always thought that the defiant was a rip off of the Whitestar from B5 (or is it the other way round? )
Whitestar introduction :

"Matters of Honor" Episode: #3.1 - 6 November 1995

Defiant introduction :

"The Search: Part 1" Episode: #3.1 - 26 September 1994
I always wondered which came first; thanks for clearing that up. Funny how they both get introduced in Ep3.1

The thing is though was that JMS had the B5 story written out before either show hit the airwaves. Sure, he had to make a few changes to fit the whims of network exes but still. The main thrusts remained the same.

Manus Celer Dei · Post by **Manus Celer Dei** » 2005-10-11 02:35pm

Kamakazie Sith wrote: an uprated ECS fought the Defiant to a draw. .

Wait, what episode did this happen in?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-10-11 02:41pm

Manus Celer Dei wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote: an uprated ECS fought the Defiant to a draw. .
Wait, what episode did this happen in?

Paradise Lost. USS Lakota (E-B Excelsior-class variant upgraded with at least Quantum Torpedoes) vs USS Defiant. Neither crew was happy about engaging a Federation ship, and both were somewhat holding back.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-10-11 10:18pm

Does that mean that a GCS would destroy a Defiant if both crews were fighting all-out? (Since one could wonder how much the apparent reluctance affected the fight with the USS Lakota.)

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-10-11 10:25pm

In the ECS battle, the ECS never missed, had an almost constant phaser barrage on Defiant - we're talking brief pauses as one emitter stops and the next one along starts - and Defiant was only able to fire occasionally due to the need to drop the nose. Even at point blank, Defiant was missing (IIRC).

So, since the ECS (maybe) wasn't firing full power, and (certainly) doesn't have the phaser power of a GCS or SOV, I think it's pretty clear how useful Defiants are. Unless 1) evasion works (it doesn't seem to) or 2) Defiant has a massively disproportional shield system, which also doesn't seem to be the case.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2005-10-12 01:16am

The Lakota vs. the Defiant is really a strange battle. We've seen the Defiant perform much better than that. Both were clearly holding back, but the way the Defiant was holding back was quite strange.

The Lakota held back by not firing any torpedoes. The Defiant did use torpedoes against the Lakota, and I imagine they did so to keep things even.

The Defiant held back by not manuevering as well as she's demonstrated in other episodes. She also held back by not using her omni-directional phaser arrays (IIRC).

Stark, I'm pretty sure the Lakota was firing full phasers because I remember Obrien saying something like, that is a lot of fire power for an ECS, after the first hit.

Bounty, the ECS was more than just uprated with Quantum torpedoes as I said to Stark Obrien seemed to think her phasers were a lot more powerful as well.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-10-12 05:13am

to me the Defiant never seem that durable, more like it upgraded armor allowed it take few shots it couldn't dodge and when you send them to battle you wouldn't send one or two DCS, but a swarm of them and overwhelm the opponent by just the sheer numbers, after all one bee sting is just painfull, but hundreds stings are dangerous (the DCS is designed as an anti-borg ship after all).

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-10-12 06:33am

Which begs the question of why we don't see more Defiant-class "picket" (it seems like the most appropriate role) ships...

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2005-10-13 10:14pm

Lord Revan wrote:to me the Defiant never seem that durable, more like it upgraded armor allowed it take few shots it couldn't dodge and when you send them to battle you wouldn't send one or two DCS, but a swarm of them and overwhelm the opponent by just the sheer numbers, after all one bee sting is just painfull, but hundreds stings are dangerous (the DCS is designed as an anti-borg ship after all).

For her size she was quite durable...at least compared to ST ships

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-10-14 05:25pm

Defiant (in my limited experience) seems to simply be more rugged and resistant to failures than other SF ships. The first hit through the shield seldom causes universal weapons failure, for example: they are able to keep fighting. The wanking of Defiants' weapons, however, is bizarre: versus roaches, they seem to be similar in power to Bird of Prey guns, which is hardly LOL OMGZ PWNZORED firepower.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-10-14 07:30pm

Defiant was trying to go to Earth as quickly as possible. Fastest way between two points is a straight line, explaining the lack of maneuverability. They gambled on the Lakota holding back probably.

Brian

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2005-10-14 07:49pm

Stark wrote:LOL OMGZ PWNZORED firepower.

Out-of-universe, do the words "Wankatine and his wanktastic superweapons" mean anything to you? That might explain the hype of the "pulse phaser cannons."

(Not an attack on you, just on the OOU rationale -- Berman & Braga again? -- for the Defiant's "godmoding".)

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-10-15 03:20am

I don't understand. The Defiant wanking (AFIAK) was limited to the fans - I don't recall Defiants doing anything to jusify their 'stronger in combat than a GCS' fan wanking. Or some people deciding they were (at time of launch) the fastest ships in Starfleet, or that their shielding was similar to a SOV. I heard all these claims made about Defiant back when DS9 had an audience.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-10-15 03:28am

I don't recall Defiants doing anything to jusify their 'stronger in combat than a GCS' fan wanking.

The Defiant did last through the entire Borg battle of FC. Otherwise, though, you're right; it's tough for it's size, but I just don't see it as an ubership, and I'm always surprised when people seem to think it'd be able to take on multiple large cruisers on it's own.