There is no god and you know it, Blog

[Faram]

I have a new hero!

Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture, and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most.

Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of six billion human beings. The same statistics also suggest that this girl’s parents believe -- at this very moment -- that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

No.

The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious.

Go to the link and read the rest, but this was a nice read.

[Metatwaddle]

Very nice. A wonderful entry.

I'm rather dismayed at comments like this, though: "There are universal human experiences in every culture and religion that we all feel, and we have since the dawn of civilization. Human feelings like hunger, love, anger, jealousy, embarassment, happiness. And, like it or not, one of them has been the feeling of spirituality. It is a common human experience that so far has not been explained by reason. But then again, neither has love or happiness, two things that puzzle nearly everyone."

If I weren't on this forum, I'd ask if I were the only one that didn't think spirituality were a common experience, but I doubt many of you have had this Powerful Spiritual Experience. Why are so many people convinced of the existence of "spirituality"?

[Zero]

Many people relate spirituality to a sense of meaning and belonging, or to a general sense that they're being protected in some way by something greater then themselves. Like children around their parents. This is something we all LIKE to feel, at times. Nobody wants to admit that they're quite likely to be completely boned.

[nickolay1]

Unfortunately, even this isn't strong enough to smash the walls of the bastion of theistic idiocy and illogic. Most simply respond with "it's all part of god's plan."

[mr friendly guy]

Looking at some of the responses

I prefer to take Voltaire's view, which is the more rational. I believe in God (though I endorse no specific religion; there is a difference) because to do so costs me nothing. If I behave in a righteous manner, and it turns out I'm right that God exists, then perhaps some of the wonderful things that the world's religions promise will befall me, whether in this life or the next. And if I am wrong, that God is a fiction, well, I will have lost nothing, and have led a righteous life anyway. Voltaire, you will remember too, contributed much to science.

Sounds like a variation of Pascal's Wager. Yawn.

Sounds like you have a lot of faith in your beliefs. In my view, that makes you just as silly as the blind fundamentalist.
But preach on, brother!

Sounds like moron boy has a lot of faith in his beliefs (ie that the atheist and fundie can't be too sure of themselves). In moron boy's views that makes him as silly as the person he criticises.
Obviously he doesn't understand the difference between taking something on faith, and taking something on reason.

There is not much I can say to refute you logically. Life sucks, shit happens, and in the end we all die anyway. So how does one square this with the notion of a loving God. Simple, you don't even try. What God has in store for each of us and our little universe is known but to Him. It may seem to us that God is cruel, arbitrary, and capricious, but that is because our feeble little minds can't know to what purpose all these things happen. Yes, suffering sucks, but much of it we inflict on ourselves, which is something religion ideally prevents. When God inflicts suffering on us, there is not much to be done but accept it and realize that there is some higher purpose to it, even if we do not immediately know what that is. Just because WE do not understand what happpens in life does not mean God doesn't exist.

As far as trying to rationally prove that God exists, don't even try. The whole concept of God is not rational. So, how do I know God exists. I sense Him, I intuit Him, I FEEL Him. Intuition and feelings are legitamate tools that the human mind uses to gain understanding of the world. Reason tells us what the world is, intuition tells me that God exists and helps me understand WHY the world is.

An entire spill on he can reason God exists, then the next line saying you shouldn't even try to reason God exists. What is he smoking. Does this moron even realise the contradictory nature of his sentence.
So this guy can FEEL God huh? Is it in the same manner as certain Catholic priests.

God is. You are just arguing your belief based on lack of evidence because you are needing proof. Look in the mirror, proof enough? Yes, you are proof there is a God and if you don't believe in your own spark of divinity then your only arguing with yourself until you do. Getting others to believe you is just a fear to look within.

Circular logic and appeal to motive all in one. Geez, these morons are really too easy to refute.

It's somewhat ironic that one who has the "knowledge" and enlightenment to declare that God is fiction, has so little knowledge of the Christian theology to expertly address it's illegitimacy. "NAS Luke 13 1. Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
2. And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
3. "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
4. "Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
5. "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

This doesn't really help in his arguments either way. In fact the unless you repent, you will all likewise perish if anything argues against his case, since those who repent, ie Christians also died due to Katrina. But I guess these people like chucking quotes up just to fill space.

Is it the fact that people die, through the vagaries of nature even, that convinces you that God is fiction?

Maybe because God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscence and compassionate all in one. He cannot be all 3 if he allows such suffering? Kind of like what Sam Harris wrote. But morons do tend to be somewhat dyslexic.

"NAS Hebrews 9:27. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment..." What Scripture reveals to the person of faith is that man is subject to the caprice of nature because he has set himself apart from God, ref. Genesis, Romans.

Citing Genesis to show the caprice of nature. Geez, didn't God cause the flood in Genesis, or do these people read the Bible with rose tinted glasses. Moreover why is that Christians also suffered when they didn't set themselves apart from God. Did this person read anything Sam Harris wrote?

Is God evil because humankind has seperated himself from God?

He is evil because of all the atrocities he commits in the Bible such as genocide, racism, smearing peoples faces with faeces, the same way Sauron is evil in LOTR. Both don't exist except as fictional characters, both commit evil acts in their respective stories.

The fundamental Christian theology as derived from Scripture informs us that God, in spite of our recalcitrance (oft demonstrated by disbelief and skepticism) gave the greatest of all sacrifices so that 'all likewise would not perish.'

Hey, before you show what a nice guy God is, maybe you should start by showing he exists first. And after that you might want to explain why this loving God lets evil happens when he has the power to stop it.

Aetheism, whether a valid term or not, cannot make a credible case for itself or against God, and this is one of the reasons that those impelled by a higher calling persist.

Its not credible because you say so. With "arguments" like this, I guess rational people better concede right now.

The majority of our Founding Fathers possessed this faith, and Al Gore recently referred to that very same class as probably the most literate and reasoned in this country's history. It's odd that they didn't throw off the questionable mantle of "faith."

Now I know this moron is on drugs. The majority of the Founding Fathers possessed the Christian faith? Are they talking about the Founding Fathers of some Church or something, because the American Founding Fathers were either deists or atheists. But I guess actually knowing the topic you are discussing isn't required for Christians despite them berating Sam Harris for his supposedly lack of knowledge.


That being said, I might try looking at Sam harris's book off amazon when it comes out.[/quote]

[Magnetic]

If I may interject what I've always been told in my christian circle:

God allows suffering because in some cases it may draw people to Christ via the testimony of those involved, in how they overcame the trial and how their faith saw them through the tragedy.

If the raped girl was a christian, then she'll be with Jesus in Heaven, and someone at the funeral may accept Christ because of the life she lead in serving him till the end.

And, of course, the common scriptural text:

Matthew 5:45
".... for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust."

And, last but not least, my favorite response:

"We just won't know, this side of Heaven, why bad things happen to good people, but that God is doing his perfect will..."

[Turin]

God allows suffering because in some cases it may draw people to Christ via the testimony of those involved, in how they overcame the trial and how their faith saw them through the tragedy.

Which is evidence of how he is evil (if he actually existed), if you ask anyone with half a brain. God's sitting around going, "yeah, I'll let the little girl get raped and murdered because, you know that might make some poor fucker at her funeral think that maybe it's about time they start obeying my every whim." God the extortionist.

[CaptJodan]

God allows suffering because in some cases it may draw people to Christ via the testimony of those involved, in how they overcame the trial and how their faith saw them through the tragedy.

Is this a time saver for God? I mean, if God honestly and truly wished us to believe in him, would not the easiest way to make this happen be for God to come down from high and simply show us he exists? I mean literal, unwavering proof of his existence. Why does God play these stupid little games of making others suffer in order for them to wish to believe in him?

I know you were just repeating what you've been told in the past by others, Mag, but it all leads back to God being a prick, regardless of what way you look at it. All knowing, all seeing, past present future. If God exists, he knows why a certain person doesn't believe. They may not believe because that was how they were raised, and they honestly have been given no reason to think otherwise. God can come down and give them reason, but instead, he kills off that poor girl after she's raped to try and get that possible athiest to change his or her mind. That's criminal.

[Ou des]

Nice article.

But I'm wondering what's the point of faith/spirituality? Is there any genetic basis for it? If so, is it caused by intelligence (or a lack thereof ), or do monkeys worship a vast unknowable Bringer of Bananas?

My guess is that people just don't want to accept that this is all there is...

[Magnetic]

God allows suffering because in some cases it may draw people to Christ via the testimony of those involved, in how they overcame the trial and how their faith saw them through the tragedy.

Is this a time saver for God? I mean, if God honestly and truly wished us to believe in him, would not the easiest way to make this happen be for God to come down from high and simply show us he exists? I mean literal, unwavering proof of his existence. Why does God play these stupid little games of making others suffer in order for them to wish to believe in him?

I know you were just repeating what you've been told in the past by others, Mag, but it all leads back to God being a prick, regardless of what way you look at it. All knowing, all seeing, past present future. If God exists, he knows why a certain person doesn't believe. They may not believe because that was how they were raised, and they honestly have been given no reason to think otherwise. God can come down and give them reason, but instead, he kills off that poor girl after she's raped to try and get that possible athiest to change his or her mind. That's criminal.

Yep. One of the reasons why I started questioning. The normal, typical christian response didn't make me say, "Oh! I see. Thanks!", but left more quetions.

[Magnetic]

Or QUESTIONS, for those of you who don't know what a 'quetion' is.

[CaptJodan]

Nice article.

But I'm wondering what's the point of faith/spirituality? Is there any genetic basis for it? If so, is it caused by intelligence (or a lack thereof ), or do monkeys worship a vast unknowable Bringer of Bananas?

My guess is that people just don't want to accept that this is all there is...

Prodominately I'd say it's simply a lack of information coupled with indoctrination and fear. I think people as a whole are just too afraid of a world in which they are truly, truly alone. You die alone, and that's the end of existence. (I, myself, am still having trouble with this one. It seems so damned unfair. Welcome to the real world, I guess.) People reach out in those times to find something that they can hold on to.

I think less educated people are more prone to get invovled in such things, sure. It doesn't exclude the more educated population, mind you, but I think there are studies out there that basically show that the higher the education, the less individauls might believe in a God, or at the very least, the less Fundie they are. Stories are by and large easier to get through a less edcuated or less intelligent person's head than are many of the theories of science, and since science, by it's own admission, doesn't know everything yet, then the less intelligent look to the magic bunny saying "That is what is responsible for all the unexplained."

[DPDarkPrimus]

Looking at some of the responses

I prefer to take Voltaire's view, which is the more rational. I believe in God (though I endorse no specific religion; there is a difference) because to do so costs me nothing. If I behave in a righteous manner, and it turns out I'm right that God exists, then perhaps some of the wonderful things that the world's religions promise will befall me, whether in this life or the next. And if I am wrong, that God is a fiction, well, I will have lost nothing, and have led a righteous life anyway. Voltaire, you will remember too, contributed much to science.

Sounds like a variation of Pascal's Wager. Yawn.

It's even worse than Pascal's Wager. If he just believe in a generic god who lets good people into heaven or it's equivilent, then the generic god wouldn't require that you believe in him to get into heaven. Thus, the belief is superfluous.

[Akhlut]

Nice article.

But I'm wondering what's the point of faith/spirituality? Is there any genetic basis for it? If so, is it caused by intelligence (or a lack thereof ), or do monkeys worship a vast unknowable Bringer of Bananas?

If it's not genetic, where the hell does it come from? Since it is a feature common to most humans, it almost certainly isn't environmental (unless some divinity implants it into the human mind). Ergo, it must be the phenotypic expression of genotypes.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Nice article.

But I'm wondering what's the point of faith/spirituality? Is there any genetic basis for it? If so, is it caused by intelligence (or a lack thereof ), or do monkeys worship a vast unknowable Bringer of Bananas?

If it's not genetic, where the hell does it come from? Since it is a feature common to most humans, it almost certainly isn't environmental (unless some divinity implants it into the human mind). Ergo, it must be the phenotypic expression of genotypes.

There's evidence that religious tendencies have a genetic component. Here's a small story on the subject.

Religious faith may be genetic

Laura Koenig studied surveys of identical and fraternal twins and began to see patterns emerge about what influences people's religiousness.

Photo by Sara Rubinstein
By Chris Coughlan-Smith

Published on July 15, 2005

In the nature-versus-nurture debate--whether our genes or our environment dominate in making us who we are--research out of the Minnesota Center for Twin and Adoption Research at the University of Minnesota has played a central role for more than 25 years. Starting with landmark studies of twins reared apart, Minnesota researchers have discovered remarkable levels of genetic influence on psychological traits and social attitudes.

The newest University study on twins finds that degree of religious faith appears to be tied to genetics. Further, it concludes that the genetic influence grows in adulthood. Behavioral psychology Ph.D. student Laura Koenig (M.A. '04) reviewed lengthy surveys from the early 1990s in the center's database. Though the surveys dealt with parenting behavior of twins, Koenig discovered that some included nine questions that dealt directly with religious faith, including about church attendance, prayer, religious reading, and more open-ended questions. Respondents who were asked the religiousness questions (more than 250 sets of male twins born from 1961 to 1964) were also asked to answer the same questions for when they were children.


Koenig has a natural interest in the topic: Her identical twin, Anne, is in graduate school for social psychology at Northwestern, and the girls were raised in a strongly religious family.


At her computer in a cramped, windowless lab she shares with other Ph.D. students in Elliot Hall, Koenig sifted through the responses and saw patterns begin to emerge: Upbringing played a large part in determining respondents' degree of faith early in life. But as respondents became adults, genetics became a dominant factor, either strengthening or reducing the role of religion in their lives. Koenig drew her conclusions based on the fact that identical twins, who share all their inherited genes, have similar degrees of faith in adulthood, while fraternal twins, who share half their inherited genes, tend to deviate in religiousness as they become adults. Koenig's analysis was published in the April issue of the Journal of Personality.

Understanding which traits and attitudes are influenced by genetics can help psychologists, parents, teachers, and individuals learn how to work with genetic predispositions, Koenig asserts. Plus, she says, simply understanding why people do certain things is an important step in understanding human interaction as more than "a mass of confusing and chaotic behaviors."

Koenig has a natural interest in the topic: Her identical twin, Anne, is in graduate school for social psychology at Northwestern, and the girls were raised in a strongly religious family. "The findings didn't cause me to question my faith at all," Laura Koenig says. "It makes sense that parental influence would decrease as you move through adolescence and start finding your own way."


From Minnesota magazine, July-August 2005.

There's also a helmet that can induce religious experiences, which demonstrates how hardwired it is. Link

God helmet: induced religious experience

To neurologists, religious experience is attributed to a particular neural activity; therefore it is not surprising that they can use a tool to induce religious experience within a person. Michael Persinger, a recognized neurologist, has invented a helmet that is able to induce mystical experiences by using electromagnets to stimulate the right temporal lobe (Hercz, 2002). More than a thousand volunteers have tried the helmet, and 80% of them are reported to experience a ‘tangible presence’. Hercz explains that stimulation of the right temporal lobe invokes right-sided self, which the dominant left-sided self perceives as another entity. The feeling eventually leads subjects to have religious experiences, such as the feeling of infinite possibilities and the sense that there must be something greater.

[Metatwaddle]

A helmet? Wow, that's... one of the coolest things I've ever heard. I don't think I can think of any better way to prove that this "universal human experience" of spirituality is, not to put too fine a point on it, made up.

[Lord of the Abyss]

A helmet? Wow, that's... one of the coolest things I've ever heard. I don't think I can think of any better way to prove that this "universal human experience" of spirituality is, not to put too fine a point on it, made up.

I thought it was pretty cool as well. A fellow on another board calls it the "Epiphany Hat", which I thought was pretty good.

[Anguirus]

Wow, that's amazing!

[Stark]

Religious 'presences' are just our subconcious becoming more dominant? That's excellent!

Christian - 'Oh no, my family has been in a serious automotive accident. Why did God let this happen?'
God - 'PRIME DIRECTIVE ONE: SURVIVE'
Christian - 'I have to go on! But I might never see my wife and children again!'
God - 'PRIME DIRECTIVE TWO: BREED'

Dear me. I want this helmet... for science!

[Guardsman Bass]

This made me think about a question on traditional christian theology. Here's the scenario: suppose a group of Pacific Islanders, living on a small, unknown island, die in a tsunami. Nobody knows about their deaths, so they don't serve some "inspire the faithful" purpose. Yet according to traditional christian theology, they are all off to Hell for never accepting Christ. If you are looking for an incontrovertible example of Godly impotence or evil, there you are. The islanders never rejected Christ; they just never heard of him. Nor did anyone else here of th em.

[Ender]

Nice article.

But I'm wondering what's the point of faith/spirituality? Is there any genetic basis for it? If so, is it caused by intelligence (or a lack thereof ), or do monkeys worship a vast unknowable Bringer of Bananas?

I recall once reading in National Goegraphic once that chinps were observed worshipping a waterfall. So yeah, there might be something genetic to it.

[wolveraptor]

Supposedly, those who've never heard of Christ get asked at the pearly gates if they will submit to him and be cleansed of sins. Which basically means they get the cheap-ass way out. An islander could be a rapist, murderer and despot and get killed in the tsunamic, and then realize that there's a God and that he must submit. So he does and gets off scott-free for eternity. Nice justice system.

[Duckie]

Supposedly, those who've never heard of Christ get asked at the pearly gates if they will submit to him and be cleansed of sins. Which basically means they get the cheap-ass way out. An islander could be a rapist, murderer and despot and get killed in the tsunamic, and then realize that there's a God and that he must submit. So he does and gets off scott-free for eternity. Nice justice system.

Actually, the same happens for Evangelicals, too, I believe. Faith, not Works, remember?

If I were a Christian, I'd be a Faith, Not Works person too. It's freakin' easy to get a back-stage pass to Heaven.

[Exonerate]

There is another explaination: God exists, but is just a malignant bastard.

[wolveraptor]

Naw. If he really were, he'd be actively killing people, in the goriest way possible. He might take on the form of Surtr (sp?) the Norse giant and first inhabitant of the universe; then he could take a kick ass flaming sword and ream people up the ass with it. I could almost forgive him, too. What pleasure can God take other than making people react? He has no challenge, so he must amuse himself by challenging others. It would drive me insane.